willard 0 #26 February 8, 2007 I watched both of my grandmothers get old and dependent upon others even though they lived alone. Their famliy was close by, just a few miles away. These programs do much more than just deliver a meal. They check in on the folks. Often these older people will tell a stranger about feeling ill or maybe a pain they have been having that, for whatever reason, they didn't want to tell their family. Most of the time these older folks will have lost all their friends to old age so a visiter from outside the family is a rare and welcome treat. This program is one that you can put a cost on, but the value is priceless. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #27 February 8, 2007 QuoteNo, my problems are my problems unless someone wants to make a buck off of me to solve it. I don't expect you to pay for my choices. Given that I don't trust another damned person on this planet to take care of, I'll take care of myself. Obviously, you are not happy with the care given to you by everyone else. Ergo, you are Exhibit fucking "A" of the reasons why I take care of my future with 17 separate insuarance policies. I pay up the ass for them, but they at least provide lubrication unlike the ass-fucking I'd take with a sandpaper condom in the event something happened that I didn't prepare for. OK, that works fine for the people who enter the 'screw you, it's all about billable hours, I'll legally fuck anybody to get more money', legal profession. Great that they can get mega insurance policies, write them off in a variety of ways and never miss a billable hour. In essence, you're telling us that lawyers are very good at taking care of themselves and fuck everyone else...we know this. Was there anything new you wished to contribute about a lawyer's views on civilized society and human compassion?----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
lawrocket 3 #28 February 8, 2007 QuoteOK, that works fine for the people who enter the 'screw you, it's all about billable hours, I'll legally fuck anybody to get more money', legal profession. Whew. I'm glad I'm not one of those. Quoteyou're telling us that lawyers are very good at taking care of themselves and fuck everyone else...we know this. Is it not odd that my job is to take care of other people? Yes, I get paid for it, but it's my job. Ironically, it is not thankless. QuoteWas there anything new you wished to contribute about a lawyer's views on civilized society and human compassion? It's not a "lawyer's view" it is MY view. Plenty of people disagree with me. My best friend is a Canadian socialist lawyer/economist who works for the IRS. His viewpoints differ from mine. In fact, I haven't found a person whom I agree with on a majority of things. But I often forget that I am no authority on compassion. I'm sorry for butting in on your territory. I will concede that you are the authority on compassion. You have argued that we shouldn't be spending " mega bucks keeping 80, 90, 100 year old veggies alive beyond all reasonable and compassionate standards of quality of life." Also, that "Shifting the billions (trillions?) of dollars spent annually on these people to 'reasonable' free health care for citizens who have a chance to enjoy a quality of life given the benefit of reasonable health care wouldn't cost any additional dollars." In other words, tell freethefly that he can die because he costs too much money, and since he's just circling the drain, we should be spending money on others. You make value choices on who is worth saving and who is not, and that money should go to people you deem worthy of saving and taken away from those you deem unworthy. I remember the movie "Death Race 2000" where they had euthanasia day at the retirement home. No, your argument was not the same, but similar. I make my value choices in saying that nobody should have to pay to save me. I, for one, will keep my mom alive if that's what she wants. Since it's my money, there should be no objections from the compassionate and civilized. source - http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2486703#2486703 My wife is hotter than your wife. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #29 February 8, 2007 QuoteHumans evolved behaviors to take care of immediate family, then extended family, then tribe or clan, then nation. Altruism, if you will Yes, but not nation before all others. I support my parents. If then get to the point they need more care, then I will move them to my house. I don't expect you to take care of my parents. Also, this is just taking one program and turning it into another. It is not like they are being left to starve. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #30 February 8, 2007 QuoteQuoteHumans evolved behaviors to take care of immediate family, then extended family, then tribe or clan, then nation. Altruism, if you will Yes, but not nation before all others. I support my parents. If then get to the point they need more care, then I will move them to my house. I don't expect you to take care of my parents. . Not all elderly people have children.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,141 #31 February 8, 2007 See Washington Sate has it right, ban gay marriage and force all marriages to result in reproduction....it is cheaper in the end Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #32 February 9, 2007 QuoteBut I often forget that I am no authority on compassion. I'm sorry for butting in on your territory OK, then. Stick with what you know. QuoteIn other words, tell freethefly that he can die because he costs too much money, and since he's just circling the drain, we should be spending money on others. He is young and with decent health care can live a long life potentially filled with reward and happiness. Strange you should bring him into this discussion as the views you express advocate his death. Quote I, for one, will keep my mom alive if that's what she wants. [my emphasis] My views on compassionate end of life care have nothing to do with overriding an individual's expressed desire to live. Death Race 2000?!? Oh my! QuoteSince it's my money, there should be no objections from the compassionate and civilized. Actually, if she falls into the age group you referenced, it would be mostly Medicare money. The standard legal action in these cases is to have lawyers divert (legally, of course) her personal assets to keep the hospital from touching them. Dude. You work a job that society considers honest work. You take care of yourself and your family. More power to you. Your concern for others in the society in which you live, however, seems to fall squarely into the category of 'I got mine, fuck everyone else'. It is a matter of personal choice and individual values. I got mine and you have yours.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #33 February 9, 2007 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In other words, tell freethefly that he can die because he costs too much money, and since he's just circling the drain, we should be spending money on others. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He is young and with decent health care can live a long life potentially filled with reward and happiness. Strange you should bring him into this discussion as the views you express advocate his death. ----------------------------------------------------------- Young? Maybe 47 is young. Feel much older on somedays But, thank ya for compliment anyways, babe! In alot of ways, I do agree with Lawrocket. I have never had to use any of the tax dollars that I put into the system untill my job went to Mexico and along with it, my insurance. What followed was the depleation of my 401K for healthcare. Back in 95 I depleated my mutal fund and sold all the stocks that I bought over the years. I ended up filing bankruptcy and lost everything. I'm not blaming anyone for my predictiment but myself. Yet, since 1975, when I first started working for a paycheck, I, like many others, was told that in a time of need the tax dollars that I am paying are my tax dollars and will be there if and when you need a hand up to get back on your feet. Depriving me of medications is not a hand up. Yanking all healthcare out from underneath me is not a hand up. I much rather not have to depend on the government. But, I paid for this government. I joined its military when they needed bodies. I bought into what they were selling only to find out that what they were selling was a cheap lie. Like many of our elderly, I am pissed. It is shameful that many of the elderly, many that served this country, are being denied what should be given back to them. I much rather not pay one more dime in tax to this country and keep the dimes for myself to help myself and say screw the government. I fully plan on being back on top someday and I am working towards that goal. As far as paying tax to the US government, screw them as you get zilch for your money."...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #34 February 9, 2007 Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Quote -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- In other words, tell freethefly that he can die because he costs too much money, and since he's just circling the drain, we should be spending money on others. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- He is young and with decent health care can live a long life potentially filled with reward and happiness. Strange you should bring him into this discussion as the views you express advocate his death. ----------------------------------------------------------- Young? Maybe 47 is young. Feel much older on somedays But, thank ya for compliment anyways, babe! In alot of ways, I do agree with Lawrocket. I have never had to use any of the tax dollars that I put into the system untill my job went to Mexico and along with it, my insurance. What followed was the depleation of my 401K for healthcare. Back in 95 I depleated my mutal fund and sold all the stocks that I bought over the years. I ended up filing bankruptcy and lost everything. I'm not blaming anyone for my predictiment but myself. Yet, since 1975, when I first started working for a paycheck, I, like many others, was told that in a time of need the tax dollars that I am paying are my tax dollars and will be there if and when you need a hand up to get back on your feet. Depriving me of medications is not a hand up. Yanking all healthcare out from underneath me is not a hand up. I much rather not have to depend on the government. But, I paid for this government. I joined its military when they needed bodies. I bought into what they were selling only to find out that what they were selling was a cheap lie. Like many of our elderly, I am pissed. It is shameful that many of the elderly, many that served this country, are being denied what should be given back to them. I much rather not pay one more dime in tax to this country and keep the dimes for myself to help myself and say screw the government. I fully plan on being back on top someday and I am working towards that goal. As far as paying tax to the US government, screw them as you get zilch for your money. By South Florida health care standards, 47 is pre-teen! Yes, you were lied to. Variations of your story are played out throughout the country every day. Trillions for war, and crap for health care.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #35 February 9, 2007 QuoteYes, you were lied to. Variations of your story are played out throughout the country every day. Trillions for war, and crap for health care. Would it surprise you to know that approximately one trillion dollars is spent every year for public healthcare? Or that the current cost of the war in Iraq is more like 370 billion... not the "trillions" people like to toss about? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jenfly00 0 #36 February 9, 2007 QuoteQuoteYes, you were lied to. Variations of your story are played out throughout the country every day. Trillions for war, and crap for health care. Would it surprise you to know that approximately one trillion dollars is spent every year for public healthcare? Or that the current cost of the war in Iraq is more like 370 billion... not the "trillions" people like to toss about? Did you know ... What am I thinking, it's NCclimber. Of course you have no idea. Rarely does one, knowing so little, post so much.----------------------- "O brave new world that has such people in it". Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #37 February 9, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteYes, you were lied to. Variations of your story are played out throughout the country every day. Trillions for war, and crap for health care. Would it surprise you to know that approximately one trillion dollars is spent every year for public healthcare? Or that the current cost of the war in Iraq is more like 370 billion... not the "trillions" people like to toss about? Did you know ... What am I thinking, it's NCclimber. Of course you have no idea. Rarely does one, knowing so little, post so much. Accusing me of ignorance for shedding a little light on your bogus claims. Ironic. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #38 February 9, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, you were lied to. Variations of your story are played out throughout the country every day. Trillions for war, and crap for health care. Would it surprise you to know that approximately one trillion dollars is spent every year for public healthcare? Or that the current cost of the war in Iraq is more like 370 billion... not the "trillions" people like to toss about? Did you know ... What am I thinking, it's NCclimber. Of course you have no idea. Rarely does one, knowing so little, post so much. Accusing me of ignorance for shedding a little light on your bogus claims. Ironic. As usual you snipe and whine. www.csmonitor.com/2006/0110/dailyUpdate.html www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/cost_of_war_in_iraq.pdf I suppose you put the cost of long term health care and disability payments to wounded Iraq veterans on the "health care" ledger rather than the "war" ledger. The Sun set in the west yesterday - need a cite?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #39 February 9, 2007 Would it be too much to ask you folks to stick to the thread topic and stop the personal pissing contest? You've made your points about each other many times over. Enough already. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #40 February 9, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteYes, you were lied to. Variations of your story are played out throughout the country every day. Trillions for war, and crap for health care. Would it surprise you to know that approximately one trillion dollars is spent every year for public healthcare? Or that the current cost of the war in Iraq is more like 370 billion... not the "trillions" people like to toss about? Did you know ... What am I thinking, it's NCclimber. Of course you have no idea. Rarely does one, knowing so little, post so much. Accusing me of ignorance for shedding a little light on your bogus claims. Ironic. As usual you snipe and whine. www.csmonitor.com/2006/0110/dailyUpdate.html www2.gsb.columbia.edu/faculty/jstiglitz/cost_of_war_in_iraq.pdf I suppose you put the cost of long term health care and disability payments to wounded Iraq veterans on the "health care" ledger rather than the "war" ledger. The Sun set in the west yesterday - need a cite? Oh great. A long term hypothetical forecast to refute actual numbers. You crack me up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #41 February 9, 2007 Quote Oh great. A long term hypothetical forecast to refute actual numbers. You crack me up. Do you think the injured Iraq veterans will suddenly get cured tomorrow and no longer need care? We needn't fix Social Security either - they're just long term forecasts that it will go in the red. Actual numbers show a surplus. In the days before the war almost five years ago, the Pentagon estimated that it would cost about $50 billion. Democratic staff members in Congress largely agreed. Lawrence Lindsey, a White House economic adviser, was a bit more realistic, predicting that the cost could go as high as $200 billion, but President Bush fired him in part for saying so. ... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freethefly 6 #42 February 9, 2007 QuoteThe Sun set in the west yesterday - need a cite? Best if you sent him a compass, so that he knows which way to face. I made mention of vets when I asked in a poll I started on who should benefit. "Far too many WW2 and Korean vets are being cast aside as if they but bums and not worthy of any help. This seems to be the attitude of many young people towards the old. There will come a day when many Iraq vets will be in the same shoes as the old vets." But, I guess, they are not our responsibility. My opinion is that if you worked and/or served, you deserve any and all help that was promised to you when a time of need arises. It seems that the people who complain the most about someone getting help are those people who have never served. They, also, seem to be the ones most happy about sending people off to war. I wonder, NC, what branch did you serve in?"...And once you're gone, you can't come back When you're out of the blue and into the black." Neil Young Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #43 February 9, 2007 QuoteBush calls for eliminating food program for needy seniors Gosh, I searched far and wide on Google news for "the other side" of this story, and it just ain't available. It's just too easy to take cheap shots at President Bush, without bothering to find out why he proposes to eliminate this program, or if he really wants to starve old people. Well, I finally found it. Here is "the rest of the story", as Paul Harvey would say it, which the mainstream media doesn't bother to tell you (bolding is mine): Commodity Supplemental Food Program (CSFP) "CSFP serves elderly persons and at risk low-income pregnant and post-partum and breastfeeding women, infants and children up to age six. The budget does not request funding for this program which is not available nationwide and duplicates two of the Nations’ largest Federal nutrition assistance programs – Food Stamps and WIC. This program operates in selected areas in just 32 States, the District of Columbia, and two Indian Tribal Organizations. The populations served by CSFP are eligible to receive similar benefits through other Federal nutrition assistance programs that offer them flexibility to meet their individual needs. The Administration has proposed this change to better target limited resources to those major programs that are available nationwide, promoting equity and effectiveness. "The President’s budget does include a request for funds to support the transition of CSFP participants to nationally available FNS nutrition assistance programs such as WIC and FSP. USDA will work closely with CSFP State agencies to ensure that any negative effects on program participants are minimized. We plan to implement a transition strategy to encourage those women, infants and children that are eligible for WIC to apply for that program, and to encourage elderly CSFP recipients to apply for the Food Stamp Program. "The budget request includes $2 million to provide outreach and to assist individuals enrolling in the FSP. Elderly participants who are leaving the CSFP upon the termination of its funding and who are not already receiving FSP benefits will be eligible to receive a transitional benefit of $20 per month. This transition benefit will end in the first month following enrollment in the FSP under normal program rules, or in 6 months, whichever occurs first. CSFP women, infants, and children participants who are eligible for WIC benefits will be referred to that program. Commodities obtained under agriculture support programs that would be used to support CSFP will be donated for use in other nutrition assistance programs, such as TEFAP." Source: USDA Congressional Testimony In other words, this program is redundant, and could be streamlined by moving these recipients to the other more widespread programs which do the same thing. No one would go hungry. And it would save the taxpayers money. Damn that President Bush! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Andy9o8 0 #44 February 9, 2007 QuoteGosh, I searched far and wide on Google news for "the other side" of this story, and it just ain't available. John, the article in the OP acknowledged that the Federal Govt takes the position that the programs are redundant: QuoteThe White House said the program, known as CSFP, duplicates the two largest federal nutrition assistance programs - food stamps and the Women, Infants and Children (WIC) program. Those two programs run nationwide, while CSFP is available in only 32 states and the District of Columbia. Bush's budget plan would provide temporary benefits to CSFP recipients to help them transition to food stamps. Agriculture Department spokeswoman Terri Teuber said that the food stamp program is national in scope, provides better benefits and is more efficiently run than the CSFP program. The CSFP is an Agriculture Department program. Then it went on to quote one critic's rebuttal of the Govt's official position. Quote Frank Kubik, president of the National CSFP Association, which represents state and local organizations that administer the program, said 91 percent of the people who receive food through CSFP are elderly and not eligible for WIC. In addition, he said, many seniors are reluctant to sign up for food stamps. The various food programs do not duplicate each other, Kubik said. "These are supplemental programs," he said. "They're meant to work together. They're pieces of resources that people need to get through the month." So both sides of the debate were, in fact, presented. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #45 February 10, 2007 QuoteNot all elderly people have children. But many do. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
narcimund 0 #46 February 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteNot all elderly people have children. But many do. Davinci gets my nomination for the weekly Missing the Point contest. First Class Citizen Twice Over Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #47 February 10, 2007 QuoteDid you know ... What am I thinking, it's NCclimber. Of course you have no idea. Rarely does one, knowing so little, post so much. So he posts numbers that show your rant to be wrong and HE posts without knowing?!?!?!?!?! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,646 #48 February 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteNot all elderly people have children. But many do. Davinci gets my nomination for the weekly Missing the Point contest. Seconded!... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #49 February 10, 2007 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteNot all elderly people have children. But many do. Davinci gets my nomination for the weekly Missing the Point contest. Seconded! ____________________________ All in favor... say 'Aye'! Those opposed... Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
