Problems I have with The Sacrifice and symbolism in christianity.

[jakee 1,254]

So in a few recent threads discussions have cropped up about fairness in the whole who gets into heaven thing with regard to born again christianity. Part of the reason these tend to turn into back and forth "yes it is," "no it isn't," "yes it is" type exchanges seems to me to be because we (or at least me) on this side of the discussion simply don't get the whole salvation through Christ thing and why on earth it should be so important. So here's a few questions.

1) Where exactly was the sacrifice? Jesus dies on the cross... but 3 days later he's back with his buddies (and an indeterminate time later has ascended to heaven)? I don't get it - what's so terrible about that?

(I asked this to my RE teacher back when I was in school and the best he could do was "It must have hurt," although I'm sure that says more about the state of Religious Education in the UK than anything else. I shudder to think what his level of understanding of less mainstream religions was like)

2) Proportionality. If we do take his death to be a punishment, why is it not proportional to the one we should recieve? I am told by the born agains that we deserve to be punished, but Jesus has taken that punishment for us if we accept him.

Hang on a minute though, the punishment in store for us is an eternity in hell after we have died our physical death. The punishment Jesus took was..... dying a physical death. Nowhere have I seen it stated that Jesus spent any time in hell, so I don't see how he has actually taken our punishment for us.

3) Why doesn't it apply automatically. Jesus said he died for the sins of all mankind (is that right) so why do we have to ackowledge it (say thank you as it were) before it applies to us.

4) Why is it needed? Before Jesus, God punished sinners. After Jesus, God does not neccessarily punish sinners. Why does he need the symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice in order to justify his non-punishment? Either way, sinners still go unpunished. God makes the rules, he doesn't need this convoluted plan in order to balance his book of crime and punishment because he doesn't need to justify to anyone else that he's slacking off on the punishment. What is the purpose of the symbolism?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[windcatcher 0]

Umm, I don't think God meant for us to figure out why He did everything the way He did.

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[narcimund 0]

Ah, the good ol' "God works in mysterious ways" escape hatch. Always a winner.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[jakee 1,254]

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Umm, I don't think God meant for us to figure out why He did everything the way He did.

So basically you don't have a clue. Nice answer, thanks for playing.

Anyone with something constructive?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

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1) Where exactly was the sacrifice? Jesus dies on the cross... but 3 days later he's back with his buddies (and an indeterminate time later has ascended to heaven)? I don't get it - what's so terrible about that?

Apart from the horror of the crucifiction and scourging, it is also considered a great sacrifice for a blameless man to bear the sins of the world. Personally, I hate taking the rap for anybody else.

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2) Proportionality. If we do take his death to be a punishment, why is it not proportional to the one we should recieve? I am told by the born agains that we deserve to be punished, but Jesus has taken that punishment for us if we accept him.

Death is penalty for sin. To say it biblically, without blood, there is no remission of sin.

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Hang on a minute though, the punishment in store for us is an eternity in hell after we have died our physical death. The punishment Jesus took was..... dying a physical death. Nowhere have I seen it stated that Jesus spent any time in hell, so I don't see how he has actually taken our punishment for us.

Actually the punishment is separation from God. Some believe a passage in 1 Peter says that Christ decended to hell.

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3) Why doesn't it apply automatically. Jesus said he died for the sins of all mankind (is that right) so why do we have to ackowledge it (say thank you as it were) before it applies to us.

There are "inclusionist who think that very thing. They have to wrestle with verses that indicate it is a decision. It is a gift that is presented to you, not forced upon you.

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4) Why is it needed? Before Jesus, God punished sinners. After Jesus, God does not neccessarily punish sinners. Why does he need the symbolism of Jesus' sacrifice in order to justify his non-punishment? Either way, sinners still go unpunished. God makes the rules, he doesn't need this convoluted plan in order to balance his book of crime and punishment because he doesn't need to justify to anyone else that he's slacking off on the punishment. What is the purpose of the symbolism?

From a theological standpoint we are all in need of a savior ... someone to pay the price ... a perfect, without spot or blemish substitute. There is a difference between punishment for sin that takes place in the here and now and hell (separation from God) which is for our spirit.

steveOrino

[azdav 0]

I always enjoy your posts Steve

Noooobody expects the Spanish Inquisition!!! M.P.F.C.

[jakee 1,254]

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Apart from the horror of the crucifiction and scourging, it is also considered a great sacrifice for a blameless man to bear the sins of the world. Personally, I hate taking the rap for anybody else.

Surely thats not quite on the scale we're talking about though right? It also seems like a circular argument, the sacrifice he made was making the sacrifice. Hmm.

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Death is penalty for sin. To say it biblically, without blood, there is no remission of sin.

Physical death? Everybody dies.

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From a theological standpoint we are all in need of a savior ... someone to pay the price ... a perfect, without spot or blemish substitute.

Why? Just because we don't pay the price why is it a theological neccessity for someone else to pay it? Why can't the punishment simply be waived?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Zenister 0]

the soldier who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies makes a sacrifice.

the video gamer who jumps on a grenade to save his buddies does not.

whats the difference? Personal Permanent consequences

without PERSONAL consequences there is no such thing as 'sacrifice'

the entire idea that Divinity 'sacrifices' thru a process She/He/It has total control over is simply ludicrous... unless of course you make up your own definition of 'sacrifice'

even the experience of Pain is rather meaningless to an entity capable of removing it and its cause/effect by an act of will alone

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[lawrocket 3]

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Umm, I don't think God meant for us to figure out why He did everything the way He did.

According to the Book of Job, it is heresy to attempt to explain God's motives. And the Bible itself attempts to explain why God did the things that He did.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[stayhigh 2]

Chris did not die for My sin,,,the dude died almost 2000 years ago,,,, I didn't whip the naked dude and nailded him on the cross so FUCK OFF!!!
also my ancestor was like 8000 miles away worshiping some other weird shit...we had nothing to do with Chris...

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[stayhigh 2]

Okay so did Jesus died on cross or Christ died on cross,, or is it the same dude????
we gotta stick with one proper name,,
Jesus is one of my homie who works at Taco Bell, he certainly did not get nailed on cross and Jesus that I know won't go up on cross for no one...

Bernie Sanders for President 2016

[steveorino 7]

Death is penalty for sin. To say it biblically, without blood, there is no remission of sin.

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Physical death? Everybody dies

Actually I was referring to spiritual death (separation from God) Yes, everyone experiences physical death. I believe Christ atonement on the cross paid our "spiritual" debt.

Not being a creationist, I don't see physical death as being the result of sin. I think physical death is part of the plan (I realize it doesn't make sense to those who interpret Genesis literally. I just hope they don't think of me as a heretic because of my beliefs. But if they do, eh. Pharisees though Christ was a heretic.) The natural world made by God needs physical death. I lived in Alaska for 7 years. The polar bears that lived there were not berry eaters. They ate meat. Then you have scavengers like jackals & hyenas. Anyway, I think physical death is natural, but man's rebellion to do things his own way created a spiritual gulf between God and man. I believe JC's death on the cross closed that gap, because any other sacrifice would be imperfect and lacking. In other words, they didn't have the value to pay so great a debt. Jesus, being God, did.

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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Umm, I don't think God meant for us to figure out why He did everything the way He did.

According to the Book of Job, it is heresy to attempt to explain God's motives. And the Bible itself attempts to explain why God did the things that He did.

I'm not sure that is what I got out of Job. Besides being a book that speaks of patience and long suffering, it does address the issue that we will not always understand God, but I don't believe it called attepting to explain God's motives a heresy.

Think of it this way. IF there was a creator of everything, would we be able to understand everything about him? My thought is an emphatic NO. In fact we'd probably only be able to understand the things he desired for us to understand and nothing more.

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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Chris did not die for My sin,,,the dude died almost 2000 years ago,,,, I didn't whip the naked dude and nailded him on the cross so FUCK OFF!!!
also my ancestor was like 8000 miles away worshiping some other weird shit...we had nothing to do with Chris...

I think the screen name says it all... "stayhigh"

[Mockingbird 0]

Ask God to give you understanding, and then read the book of Romans... at least the first 8 chapters.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[pajarito 0]

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Ask God to give you understanding, and then read the book of Romans... at least the first 8 chapters.

THAT is great advise!

[lawrocket 3]

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Umm, I don't think God meant for us to figure out why He did everything the way He did.

According to the Book of Job, it is heresy to attempt to explain God's motives. And the Bible itself attempts to explain why God did the things that He did.

I'm not sure that is what I got out of Job. Besides being a book that speaks of patience and long suffering, it does address the issue that we will not always understand God, but I don't believe it called attepting to explain God's motives a heresy..

Perhaps it is because I read the bible on my own and outside of church that I made my own interpretations. The part that got to me was Job's friends were all speculating on God's motives - they were all convinced that Job musta sinned something awful to get God mad like that.

Finally, God had enough. I looked it up for the quote: "Who is it that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" My intepretation is that God said with those words, "Who do you think you are suggesting my motivations? You don't know anything."

The God gave a recap of what he did and his powers. And the God said to Job, ""Shall a faultfinder contend with the Almighty? He who argues with God, let him answer it." My interpretation of this was he was saying to Job's friends, "When you create a universe, then you can ask Me questions. Till then, I have my reasons, and they are none of your business."

Then God saidto one of his visitors, ""My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends; for you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has. "

So, the lessons I took from the Book of Job are:
1) There are reasons why bad things happen to good people, and it's not necessarily because the good people sin; and
2) Never, ever, ever attempt to speak for God. Job's friends thought they knew why Job was stricken with pestilence and disaster. NOBODY knows why God does what He does. And anybody who thinks they know why shall face the wrath that Eliphaz, Bildad and Zophar. (Why did Elihu escape punishment?)

p.s. - I'll admit that the ending of Job lost me. Hsi fortunes were restored? It sounds like something that was rewritten to make people feel good.

Now, how is my interpretation wrong?

And, even if I am wrong, how could anyone dare suggest to speak for God?

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IF there was a creator of everything, would we be able to understand everything about him? My thought is an emphatic NO. In fact we'd probably only be able to understand the things he desired for us to understand and nothing more.

I agree that we can only understand what God wants us to understand. The problem is, we don't know what that is. What does God want us to know? We don't know that. What is God's will? We don't know ecause humans have free will, which is why there is sin.

Why did God let Schiavo die? We don't KNOW if he let her die. Maybe He wanted her to live and people did it wrong. Maybe He wanted her to die sooner and people messed that up. We don't know, and until any of us create a universe, then it would not be wise to darkenHhis counsel by words without knowledge.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[steveorino 7]

Actually, I think you have a pretty good insight to Job. I guess the word heresy was throwing me. However, I do believe we can know God better now, than then. Here is what Jesus said, "If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." John 14:7"

I wrote a blog about this on my "MYSPACE" website See in my link below.

steveOrino

[Gawain 0]

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Umm, I don't think God meant for us to figure out why He did everything the way He did.

Exactly, if He wanted us to know the plan, we'd know it by now.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[lawrocket 3]

We know God better now. But we can't speak for him any more now than we could back then.

As you said, there is too much we can't understand. To know someone is not necessarily to understand someone. My wife knows me well, and she's still wrong about why I do things the way I do most of the time. She doesn't speak for me and I don't speak for her.

I know much of what JEsus stood for, but I don't know Jesus. I won't speak for Jesus, either. Who knows what he would have said about gays? I'd like to think he would find whatever righteousness they have, and help rather than destroy.

But, I don't know.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[hairyjuan 0]

christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone upon man- Thomas Jefferson




Jakee- Right on the money,sister


jesus, hesus, mithra, krishna, buddha all did the same things. DUH!

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish

[Zenister 0]

since we are bringing up Job..

WHO exactly tormented him??

please provide citations for your answers.. (of course Biblical references are allowed I AM asking in the context of the TEXT itself)

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[steveorino 7]

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since we are bringing up Job..

WHO exactly tormented him??

please provide citations for your answers.. (of course Biblical references are allowed I AM asking in the context of the TEXT itself)

Who do you think? Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head

steveOrino

[Zenister 0]

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since we are bringing up Job..

WHO exactly tormented him??

please provide citations for your answers.. (of course Biblical references are allowed I AM asking in the context of the TEXT itself)

Who do you think? Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head

might want to look at a few more translations prior to answering....

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[br0k3n 0]

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since we are bringing up Job..

WHO exactly tormented him??

please provide citations for your answers.. (of course Biblical references are allowed I AM asking in the context of the TEXT itself)

Who do you think? Job 2:7 So Satan went out from the presence of the LORD and afflicted Job with painful sores from the soles of his feet to the top of his head

Well to anyone who has read it, the story of Job is perhaps one of the best examples of how evil the biblical god is.

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