Should women serve in combat?

[jenfly00 0]

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No separate qualifications for men / women - they either pass the test or they don't. If they don't, then they aren't put in a line unit.

Sounds good to me.

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"O brave new world that has such people in it".

[Pulse 0]

I voted YES on the poll. YES I feel women should serve in our military. In whatever capacity they desire and qualify for. But I have my misgivings and it has nothing to do with physical or mental capability. Realizing guys are guys and women are women. Biology, chemistry, and human nature at work and I begin to think it's something we as a culture really aren't ready for.

People would have to set aside their egos, their emotions, their biases, it just wouldn't happen. And how are we supposed to deal with that?

I agree with the setting of identical standards for both genders. You don't cut the mustard....you're not a soldier. Then suddenly Sally gets a passing grade and people start questioning whether she passed on her performance or her gender. Who knows? But now we have to investigate it at the cost to the taxpayers. We also run the risk of keeping track of how many soldiers we have from each gender. Suddenly there's the added pressure that we're not reaching our percentage of female soldiers. Then the general public starts pointing out that not as many female canidates pass as male recruits. The higher ups want to change this to appease Joe-public and start 'bending' standards. Yes, it would happen.

Of course then a war comes along. The public that thought the military was being biased about the entry of women now cries when a woman is taken prisoner. She is injured, raped, and the public is dismayed and starts taking on a new mindset. She is no longer a soldier, she is thought of more along the lines of a '...that poor defenseless woman.'

Before long we're back here. Should women be allowed to serve in the military? Then we'll forget about it. Until the next military action.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[kallend 1,683]

Seems like this entire discussion is about infantry where there are some obvious issues to be addressed.

I see absolutely no problem with females flying combat aircraft, for example.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Pulse 0]

Female pilots also don't return from missions. Female pilots get taken prisoner. And you would still have the 'standards' issues.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."

[Skyrad 0]

I agree. I suspect women make better pilots than men anyway.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Guest]

As much I do not like the idea of women in combat, the fact is that due the kind of asymmetrical warfare in which we are currently engaged, there are no traditional "front lines" and women have been in the thick of it a few times in Iraq. One female Sergeant won a Silver Star for valor in Iraq, the first since WW2 (too bad she didn't try to cover up some of that acne before the presentation, but what the heck - heh).

It's generally considered worse for the men's morale to see women being injured or killed than seeing other men in the same situation, and then there is the whole hanky-panky thing that distracts people from their jobs. Tito executed his partisans for screwing around on the job, BTW.

So the answer is no, in my opinion. They should not be placed directly into combat roles, but they should be trained to fight anyway, because these days, that can happen anywhere, not just at the so-called "front".

mh
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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[labrys 0]

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too bad she didn't try to cover up some of that acne before the presentation

It breaks my heart that we live in a culture in which women are often criticized if they don't wear a disguise before they go out in public.

Maybe she should have worn a burqa, huh?

Owned by Remi #?

[bozo 0]

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One female Sergeant won a Silver Star for valor in Iraq, the first since WW2 (too bad she didn't try to cover up some of that acne before the presentation, but what the heck - heh).
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Harju....you ought to be ashamed of yourself for that comment.
Even as a joke it wasnt funny.
How many Silver Stars did you win in the Air Force ?

bozo
Pain is fleeting. Glory lasts forever. Chicks dig scars.

[labrys 0]

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Only the ugliest ones

The real question is why would any woman be willing to sacrifice her life for any man when this kind of attitude is accepted as harmless and funny.

Owned by Remi #?

[warpedskydiver 0]

It was sarcasm!!!!

[labrys 0]

Yes, I understood that. I even chuckled a little.

My point is that such sarcasm against women is often seen as "harmless and funny" when it wouldn't be tolerated when directed against men.

Owned by Remi #?

[warpedskydiver 0]

I say way worse stuff about males in general, lets face it, there are quite a few penis owners that disgrace real men at any given opprtunity.

Guy card nothing, we should send them over to the Shim team.

[GQ_jumper 4]

I answered no to the poll but like a few other people in here I think the answer has a few extra things to be considered. Do I think women belong in a combat zone, absolutely, they are soldiers too and they do their job well. Do I think women belong in jobs where their job description is more or less "to close with and kill the enemy", or on the same line, in a unit like that even if in a support role? No I don't, bringing women in would do many negative things there.

First, as mentioned on here plenty of times there is the physical standard, there are many women out there in great shape, I have met women who have better cardio than me, and I'm sure there's even a few out there that could lift more(those one's scare me), but does anyone really think on average women can carry the same rucksack I do? I proved they can't, I was at a course on Ft. Benning one time and when it was time for a roadmarch the instructors gave us the option of choosing what to put in our rucks so long as they were full, walking around I watched every single woman(and a good number of the guys, which pissed me off), stuffing sleeping bags and pillows in their rucks, while I was grabbing everything heavy I could find and tossing it in mine, there was stuff strapped to the outside to make it heavier, two of my buddies had to pick it up and put it on my back. All of the women(except one or two) still had a hard time on this roadmarch and it was only a few miles, a lot of the men from support units struggled too I don't want to single out the women on this one, but my point is that if you want to put women in line units they have to meet the same standard, and apart from those few exceptional women who push themselves to be as strong as the men in line units they just can't do the same job.

Team cohesion, this is the big one with me, the majority of my friends are women, I love them death and I spend as much of my free time as possible with them. However, when I am at work, I don't want them around, one of the reasons my team is so close is because when we go into work we are with "the boys". We can kick back, talk how we want, say what we want, the married guys get to let loose because they are away from the house, it's a blast. Take a woman and throw her in the mix and it changes the chemistry, I've met plenty of girls that can hang with the guys when it comes to talking dirty, swearing, drinking, etc. But the fact remains that it would force the guys to hold back, countless times I have watched a female soldier, swear, and talk trash, and act like she was one of the guys, but as soon as a guy says something that offends her, no matter how much she was one of the boys before she throws out the sexual harassment card and it's bye bye career for the guy, it happens all the time. Not to mention sexual tension that's added to this can tear the guys apart if a few have their eye on the same female, it's nature, it's going to happen.

Like I said before, women definitely have a place in combat, and as we are seeing in Iraq they every so often find themselves in an engagement, for example, if they are on a supply convoy that gets hit, they are in the mix too, and from all the reports I get they perform great. But as for putting them on my team, I'm sorry no, I love spending my time off-duty with them, but when I'm kicking in doors I want to look over my shoulder and see my 210 pound buddy right behind me ready to watch my back, the one I know could toss me over his shoulder if I go down, or if someone gets the jump on me, I want the guy with me that can grab someone by the throat and rip them off me.

One last thing, as for female pilots, I've worked with them, and have nothing but great things to say about them, they are every bit as good, matter of fact there's a fun little red-head who lurks around these here forums I jumped with at Dublin last year who happens to be an Apache pilot, I'd have no issue with knowing she was watching my back up there

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

[jumprunner 0]

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Actually I am against it. At least in front line units like the Infantry. Women simply aren't built for it. Can they shoot? Yes no doubt there are some fantastic female shooters, can they kill? Without a doubt. Would they degrade the fighting effectivness of infantry unit? Without a doubt. If it came to hand to hand fighting they wouldn't stand a chance either.

You are mostly right on all counts, but let me add that the Army has proven that statistically, women are much better at shooting than men, they are uncannily accurate with a rifle. This would make them great as snipers. As a matter of fact, some countries habitually use women snipers, real bitches with rifles.

I had a girlfriend once, who never fired a gun in her life, and I took her trap shooting. I was demonstrating how to fire a shotgun and hit a clay pigeon, routinely missed a few and hit a few. when I handed her the gun, she smacks the very first one and every one after that. Embarrassing! Then she starts giving me pointers. Last time I ever took her shooting.

[GQ_jumper 4]

You are mostly right on all counts, but let me add that the Army has proven that statistically, women are much better at shooting than men, they are uncannily accurate with a rifle. This would make them great as snipers. As a matter of fact, some countries habitually use women snipers, real bitches with rifles.

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This is because women naturally have a lighter trigger pull, when they have all the training they're great, but on average actually they don't naturally have that ability. Also, who cares how much shooting ability you have if you can't use it, even the best shots lose everything when they are under pressure.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[nerdgirl 0]

Today's Washington Post features an article on service women dying in Iraq and Afghanistan: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/12/30/AR2006123001033.html

"In all, 62 service women from all branches have died in Iraq, about two-thirds of them in hostile fire. By comparison, in World War II, historians say, 16 women were killed in action. In Vietnam, one woman's life was claimed by enemy fire; in the Persian Gulf War, five."

A couple of the arguments made in this thread are addressed, specifically the argument that deaths of women (including at least 13 mothers) -- women returning home in body bags -- would result in an outcry: "Instead, the casualties appear to have melded into the nation's experience of war."

"'I think people have come to the sensible conclusion that you can't say a woman's life is more valuable than a man's life,' said retired Air Force Brig. Gen. Wilma Vaught ... 'We don't want to lose any of them.'"

My opinion -- & it's just that –- eventually it will become a non-issue.

The very, very, very few women who can meet the standards (don't lower the standards, including the non-physical one like language training, for anyone!) and who want to go through Special Forces training will eventually be allowed. Very few men can make it through the training. Special Forces are being increased. At the same time, nearly a third of Navy SEALs are medically discharged due to damage to vertebrate from riding on their rigid hull crafts (search: OFT Stilletto M-hull craft). Additionally, not all guys who go through Special Forces training, remain or serve in Special Forces operations, e.g., I know an Army Ranger (COL) who now serves as Chief of Staff in a Pentagon office in which 3/4rds of the military officers have PhDs or MDs. His ability to lift, haul, or march is not relevant. The reality and relevance is that Special Forces training & experience matters for promotion, especially to General Officer (& perhaps, it should?).

Women will die serving in military and stability operations. As the DoD becomes increasingly involved in more stability operations (see DoD Directive 3000.05), a larger percentage of women service members are likely to be put in harm’s way. In the current situation women are primarily engaged in such operations: “[w]omen make up 11 percent of deployed U.S. forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. But because they do not serve in traditional "frontline" combat units -- infantry, artillery, armor, Special Forces -- their casualties are proportionately smaller, 2 percent of the lives lost.” Rather than single large incidents of death or offensive operations that would focus great attention (vaguely akin the perception of risk and attention given to a single plane crash versus lots of automobile accidents), I don’t foresee large public outcry.

Marg

Act as if everything you do matters, while laughing at yourself for thinking anything you do matters.
Tibetan Buddhist saying

[labrys 0]

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This is because women naturally have a lighter trigger pull, when they have all the training they're great, but on average actually they don't naturally have that ability. Also, who cares how much shooting ability you have if you can't use it, even the best shots lose everything when they are under pressure.

Care to share where you learned this fact?

Owned by Remi #?

[ExAFO 0]

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A spin-off from the other thread.
Discuss.

It works for Israel...why not?

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[GQ_jumper 4]

The very, very, very few women who can meet the standards (don't lower the standards, including the non-physical one like language training, for anyone!) and who want to go through Special Forces training will eventually be allowed. Very few men can make it through the training. Special Forces are being increased. At the same time, nearly a third of Navy SEALs are medically discharged due to damage to vertebrate from riding on their rigid hull crafts (search: OFT Stilletto M-hull craft). Additionally, not all guys who go through Special Forces training, remain or serve in Special Forces operations, e.g., I know an Army Ranger (COL) who now serves as Chief of Staff in a Pentagon office in which 3/4rds of the military officers have PhDs or MDs. His ability to lift, haul, or march is not relevant. The reality and relevance is that Special Forces training & experience matters for promotion, especially to General Officer (& perhaps, it should?).

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Going to Ranger school and going through SF training are too completely different things. Basically any Infantry officer who wants to make it anywhere in a career has to have a Ranger tab, a few without slip through the cracks, but overall I find it a great course for Infantry officers. Everyone in the Ranger Regiment eventually goes through Ranger school, these guys are Rangers, the ones actually in the regiment, everyone else who has graduated the course is Ranger qualified. Like you said it does matter for promotion and that is why most officers go. As for SF training, completely different story, you go to selection and if you are picked you move to Ft. Bragg for 18-24 months for training, upon completion of your SF training you are sent to one of the SF groups, it's not like Ranger school where your unit sends you and then you go back to your unit with a Ranger tab. When you put an SF tab on your shoulder you do the job.


And Labrys, to answer your question, if I remember correctly the Army Sniper school did the study on the trigger pull fact, any sniper instructor will tell you much the same thing, that a woman's naturally lighter trigger pull prevents her from throwing her shots. But again, they have to be trained right to use this ability, they are naturally given the tools to do it right, they just need to learn to use those tools. Hope that answers your question.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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[warpedskydiver 0]

It's the same reason they make good pilots, no "Ham Fisting" the stick.

[ScottMcC 0]

Women, upon seeing any kind of "gore," will put their hands to their heads and delicately faint. This would explain why there are no women nurses, surgeons, coroners, medical examiners, crime scene investigators....

[SpeedRacer 1]

Speed Racer
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[labrys 0]

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Women, upon seeing any kind of "gore," will put their hands to their heads and delicately faint. This would explain why there are no women nurses, surgeons, coroners, medical examiners, crime scene investigators....

Beer on my monitor ack!

I'm a crime scene investigator, no kidding.

Owned by Remi #?

[labrys 0]

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And Labrys, to answer your question, if I remember correctly the Army Sniper school did the study on the trigger pull fact, any sniper instructor will tell you much the same thing, that a woman's naturally lighter trigger pull prevents her from throwing her shots. But again, they have to be trained right to use this ability, they are naturally given the tools to do it right, they just need to learn to use those tools. Hope that answers your question.

Nope. You still offer no facts, only anecdotal comments.

Owned by Remi #?

[GQ_jumper 4]

Nope. You still offer no facts, only anecdotal comments.

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I will see what I can dig up for you to show you where I got this from, I promise you this isn't just some assumption or fairy tale I have made up but a hard truth, with proper training women are physically inclined to be a far superior long-range shooter than a man is.

I gather that is what you are looking for, if I interpreted your post wrong I apologize, and please let me know what it is that you would like me to clarify, I wasn't taking anything away from the contributions of female soldiers, just providing my opinion about them serving on teams such as mine.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

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