ChasingBlueSky 0 #26 December 28, 2006 Quote And in your 6 years, have you ever gotten a person with a dishonorable discharge a job? Several. Got some into college via other creative methods once their loans were denied. There have been more dishonorable discharge coming across my desk since this war started than I know what to do with. The only people that care about the status of your discharge are those that are still in the military or those that hire former military types....and government jobs. The majority of the civilian world just doesn't care about it._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #27 December 28, 2006 QuoteWell now Rumsfeld is gone, Gates and the Generals are recommending increasing the number of troops. Are you going to now argue Bush shouldn't listen to them? Or are you going to argue he should only listen to them when they recommend what you want to hear? - Manage what you have first as if you have no surplus. I don't think this was ever done - Bush went in there thinking we would be done and over with quickly. We've talked plenty on that. I'm glad that Gates is voicing what the Generals have said, but adding more of our troops to the death total can't be the only option we have left at this point. It's possible that we are at that point thou because Bush pretended to know better than everyone else and never listened. He has run the military and this war just like he ran his companies: into the ground._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #28 December 28, 2006 Quote<> You can't possibly be trying to compare this piss-arsed little scrap (caused in no small part by your own leadership) with the massive conflicts of WW1 & 2 (proper wars). Does the word scale mean anything anymore? Did I not write in plain English? Put aside your Bush Derangement Syndrome for 10 seconds and read what I fucking WROTE, not what you want to see.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #29 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteI will say that in my 6+ years of recuitment and sales that no one has ever asked about discharge status in relationship to a job. And in your 6 years, have you ever gotten a person with a dishonorable discharge a job? If they change his discharge status at all, it'll probably be to "other than honorable" or some such thing. Having served 4 years active duty and 2 tours in battle, I can't imagine them summarizing his service as "dishonorable." And I doubt it'll affect his employment options unless he finds himself in need of a clearance for a particular job. I think both sides are right in this debate. He did sign the contract, and it did say he could be recalled. He's also spent enough time dodging bullets to decide for himself whether he wants to dodge any more, as long as he's willing to accept the consequences. If it was my decision, I'd probably change his discharge to a general under honorable conditions (if that's still a classification of discharge...I seem to fuzzily remember it existing when I was in). Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #30 December 28, 2006 QuoteHe's right ... let someone else carry the can for a while... If he's really needed, let him train the next batch. There must be thousands for active members who have never been in harms way ever... why do they need inactive ones and why should he be expected to do it for a 3rd time? He volunteered and trained for combat. Anyone joining the army and training for combat should expect to serve in combat for the entire time they're contracted for. Anything else is bonus time. When I joined the Navy I did it with the full knowledge that I might be required to serve those 8 years doing something I might not want to do. Expecting otherwise is foolish. Sure, he's pulled some tough duty but he's got valuable experience. Why is it so wrong for the army to want experienced, proven soldiers to fight?Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #31 December 28, 2006 Quotespent enough time dodging bullets to decide for himself whether he wants to dodge any more, as long as he's willing to accept the consequences. Amen. Imagine the shortfalls we would be experiencing now if we weren't calling back guys like this. How many good soldiers are leaving the military because of stories like this one? We are destroying our military, but we won't see the true results for a few more years. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #32 December 28, 2006 QuoteI guess your recruiter wasn't as much of a fucking scumbag as mine was. Congrats. Do not credit my recruiter, nor blame yours, for your failure to read and understand what you signed. I do not blame others for my mistakes. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #33 December 28, 2006 Quote<> You can't possibly be trying to compare this piss-arsed little scrap (caused in no small part by your own leadership) with the massive conflicts of WW1 & 2 (proper wars). Does the word scale mean anything anymore? He is talking about the *people*. You are talking about the conflicts. Both are seperate. Back then the people made sacrifices and took risks to make the world a better place. Today most people seem to forget we are even in a conflict and bitch about gas prices....They had rations on almost everything back then. Yet today people seem to bitch more. That is the difference he is talking about. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #34 December 28, 2006 Can I move to your fantasyland where 18 year old children read and understand the ramifications of legal contracts? And I am way past blaming my recruiter. I served honorably and have the papers to prove it. I do feel strongly, however, that policies like this, and the resulting stories like this one, will have devistating long term effects on the US military. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #35 December 28, 2006 QuoteCan I move to your fantasyland where 18 year old children read and understand the ramifications of legal contracts? And I am way past blaming my recruiter. I served honorably and have the papers to prove it. I do feel strongly, however, that policies like this, and the resulting stories like this one, will have devistating long term effects on the US military. I did. I also read and understood the lease on my apartment and the purchase contract for my car at /around that age (18-20). Just because YOU didn't doesn't mean that everyone doesn't.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #36 December 28, 2006 QuoteSeveral. Got some into college via other creative methods once their loans were denied. Creative? Do you provide jobs or schooling? There is a difference. QuoteThe majority of the civilian world just doesn't care about it. Or any job that requires a clearance or background check. That includes banking, and any SIDA jobs. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
labrys 0 #37 December 28, 2006 QuoteCan I move to your fantasyland where 18 year old children read and understand the ramifications of legal contracts? Ummm... jeez. Go to any DZ in the US. Or are you saying that 18 is too young to sign a waiver and make a skydive? I could read and comprehend when I was 18 and my daughter could read and comprehend when she was 18. YMMV Owned by Remi #? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lindercles 0 #38 December 28, 2006 Can I move to your fantasy land where 18 year olds are considered children? My god, at 27 I'm barely an adolescent! This place is awesome! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #39 December 28, 2006 18 yr old "children"? WTF? I know it may not have been what you intended to say. When has an adult of 18yrs of age ever been a "child"? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #40 December 28, 2006 I think the major difference is an unsuccesful conclusion of the war (WW1&2) would have meant certain change for our countries to be under different rule. The stakes were alot greater therefore people did their bit. Noone gives a fuck about Iraq anymore, it was exciting at first, we were going to make the place a great country. Now we are bored of it. The only updates we get on the news now is what the death count has been that day. If we all walked from Iraq now there would be civil war and furthur damage in the middle east.... but that affecets ME how? Back on topic: I agree with Tony, there must surely be other reservists who can be called up who haven't yet served an extension of their service or maybe even volunteer rejoiners. I think the guys done his bit, now his country should try to do their bit and see him out of harms way until his period of recall (or whatever its called) has expired. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #41 December 28, 2006 QuoteI'm glad that Gates is voicing what the Generals have said, but adding more of our troops to the death total can't be the only option we have left at this point. But Gates and the Generals think it is the correct path. Who are you and I to argue? Also, you must admit that some (not you that I know of) bitched saying that Bush should have listend to the Generals before, but are now bitching that he might listen to them now. That is playing both sides. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #42 December 28, 2006 QuoteIf they change his discharge status at all, it'll probably be to "other than honorable" or some such thing. Having served 4 years active duty and 2 tours in battle, I can't imagine them summarizing his service as "dishonorable." I can. I know people who did several tours but still got kicked out with a dishonorable. QuoteHe's also spent enough time dodging bullets to decide for himself whether he wants to dodge any more, as long as he's willing to accept the consequences Anyone is free to do as they please if they are willing to accept the consequences IMO. But I will not expect there to be no consequences, and blame others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #43 December 28, 2006 Quote18 yr old "children"? WTF? I know it may not have been what you intended to say. When has an adult of 18yrs of age ever been a "child"? When the "Brady Bunch" is tallying up their gun death numbers...Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #44 December 28, 2006 I joined up when I was seventeen and had no problem understanding my reserve commitment following regular service. I don't think your argument holds water.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NCclimber 0 #45 December 28, 2006 Quote18 yr old "children"? WTF? I know it may not have been what you intended to say. When has an adult of 18yrs of age ever been a "child"? When there's an opportunity to brand a Republican congressman as a pedophile! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #46 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuoteIf they change his discharge status at all, it'll probably be to "other than honorable" or some such thing. Having served 4 years active duty and 2 tours in battle, I can't imagine them summarizing his service as "dishonorable." I can. I know people who did several tours but still got kicked out with a dishonorable. I bet it was for something other than failure to report after 2 years of civilian life. QuoteQuoteHe's also spent enough time dodging bullets to decide for himself whether he wants to dodge any more, as long as he's willing to accept the consequences Anyone is free to do as they please if they are willing to accept the consequences IMO. But I will not expect there to be no consequences, and blame others. As far as I know, this sergeant was not responsible for the decisions that prompted his first two tours, much less this potential third. I'd say he's well within his rights to blame others for demanding that he again play the role of invader. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Skyrad 0 #47 December 28, 2006 Agreed. On both sides of the Atlantic.When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy. Lucius Annaeus Seneca Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DaVinci 0 #48 December 28, 2006 QuoteCan I move to your fantasyland where 18 year old children read and understand the ramifications of legal contracts? Sure, it is called *adulthood* where you pay attention to what you are doing and abide by the choices you make. Also, this guy is 34...He has been out 2 years and served 4. So he enlisted at age 28. What age do you think a person should finally able to sign a contract, 30? Here in the US it is 18. QuoteAnd I am way past blaming my recruiter. I served honorably and have the papers to prove it. I am sure you did your time, but your statement to me in reference to the 8 years was "I guess your recruiter wasn't as much of a fucking scumbag as mine was". That sounds to me like you blame him. Quote I do feel strongly, however, that policies like this, and the resulting stories like this one, will have devistating long term effects on the US military. And while I agree, it does not eliminate the duty to uphold your end of an agreement. One of the big problems I see today is that no one wants to be responsible for their actions. He signed up at age 28, his contract said 8 years (just like yours, mine, and countless others). Now he wants to bitch about upholding his part. I feel the same way when NG units got called up and people who were more than happy to spend the weekends and two weeks playing Army while the rest of the time they enjoyed the money for school and the benefits suddenly bitched about being in the Army. I have sympathy, but feel they should finish the contract they signed. You, it seems, want to excuse people for not being willing to uphold their part of the contract they signed. Would you feel the same way if you were contract labor and the company decided to ignore the contract when they felt like it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zipp0 1 #49 December 28, 2006 Quote18 yr old "children"? WTF? I know it may not have been what you intended to say. When has an adult of 18yrs of age ever been a "child"? 18 year olds, for the most part, are immature children. They have no advanced education, little life experience, and are not afforded all of the legal rights of adulthood in the USA. (drinking, gambling, etc) I'm glad the genius users of dz.com all read and understood every aspect of every legal contract and enlistment document they signed at the age of 18, but the fact is, a large portion of those who sign do not. And comparing making a skydive to signing your life over to uncle Sam for 8 years is invalid, sorry. -------------------------- Chuck Norris doesn't do push-ups, he pushes the Earth down. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
livendive 8 #50 December 28, 2006 QuoteQuote<> You can't possibly be trying to compare this piss-arsed little scrap (caused in no small part by your own leadership) with the massive conflicts of WW1 & 2 (proper wars). Does the word scale mean anything anymore? He is talking about the *people*. You are talking about the conflicts. Both are seperate. Back then the people made sacrifices and took risks to make the world a better place. Today most people seem to forget we are even in a conflict and bitch about gas prices....They had rations on almost everything back then. Yet today people seem to bitch more. That is the difference he is talking about. Back then, there was a ongoing genocide in one instance, and a few countries invading whatever other countries they could in both instances. There were obvious and valid reasons for going to war and sacrificing what was necessary to make the world a better place. This time it's us playing the role of invader, without a valid, agreed upon cause (I'm talking about Iraq, not Afghanistan), and without any indication that we're making the world a better place. Blues, Dave"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!" (drink Mountain Dew) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
