religion and morality

[Royd 0]

Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen something?

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Yes, in some cases it was the right thing to do at the time and in some cases it wasn't. Either way it makes me a bad person because it was a bad thing to do, not because some mythical being says it was a bad thing to do. Which is the point of this whole thread.

What is a lie, and why is it wrong?
What is stealing, and why is it wrong?

Who says it's wrong, and why should I believe them?
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Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain?

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All the time, but it means nothing since I don't have any reason to believe that such a being exists

If you truly believed that neither God not Jesus Christ ever existed, why would those words come out of your mouth as a curse word.

Why not use Satan's name, or even you own father's name?

[steveorino 7]

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Any passages you can quote/ link to?

Mostly where JC spoke of Ghenna as a metaphor for hell. It was a dump outside Jerusalem (the dwelling place of God -- in the Holy of Holies), where refuse was dumped. . It was covered with dirt, but the fires continually burned through the crevaces. In Jewish theology it was a place of defilement, with carcasses and such.

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen something?

Yes, in some cases it was the right thing to do at the time and in some cases it wasn't. Either way it makes me a bad person because it was a bad thing to do, not because some mythical being says it was a bad thing to do. Which is the point of this whole thread.

Motive is everything. Remember, God sees your heart. He sees your thought life. The Bible says that all liars will have their part in the lake of fire.

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Have you ever looked at another woman with lust?

Absolutely, probably at least once a day. I just don't agree with the book that says that it is a bad thing to do. Looking with lust is a healthy natural reaction to a beautiful thing. You believe some book that says otherwise, I don't.

Even if I don’t believe in or agree with the speed limit, if I break it and get caught, I still have to pay the price. Jesus said that whoever looks at another woman with lust (that is, outside the sanctity of marriage) has committed adultery with her already in his heart.

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Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain?

All the time, but it means nothing since I don't have any reason to believe that such a being exists. To me it is a term that I have been taught to use when the doody hits the fan. Not because I believe that there is any being that is listening. Just like when I stub my toe and exclaim "Shit". I don't expect a pile shit to appear. Please understand I am not comparing your beliefs and shit I am just saying that in my world they are both used as exclamations that have no literal meaning.

If I walked around all day exclaiming “Your Dad is an SOB” every time something bad happened to me and in your presence even if I had no idea who he was, would it start to piss you off? How much more do you think it offends a completely holy and just God who gave you everything including the breath that keeps you alive? The Bible says God will not hold him blameless who takes his name in vain.

[billvon 2,442]

>What is a lie, and why is it wrong?

Because I would not want people to lie to me.

>What is stealing, and why is it wrong?

Because I would not want people to steal from me.

>Who says it's wrong, and why should I believe them?

?? You shouldn't. If you do not feel lying is wrong, then lie away.

[okalb 79]

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What is a lie, and why is it wrong?
What is stealing, and why is it wrong?

Behavior in a society determines that those things are wrong. Here is the part where you say that god created society and I say that I don't believe that. I believe that common basic needs create a society and over time the society creates rules.

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If you truly believed that neither God not Jesus Christ ever existed, why would those words come out of your mouth as a curse word.

Because it is something that I do as a habit. Since childhood I have heard that and mimicked it just like everything else that humans say and do. Where does any word get it meaning in any language?

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Why not use Satan's name, or even you own father's name?

Because I like using the word that I use and since it has no deeper meaning to me, I don't really care. Like I said before, why do I yell shit when I stub my toe. Surely the word shit has nothing to do with stubbing my toe. If I look up the word shit in the dictionary there is no reference to toe stubbing in there.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[jakee 1,262]

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If you truly believed that neither God not Jesus Christ ever existed, why would those words come out of your mouth as a curse word.

Why not use Satan's name, or even you own father's name?

Because its what I learnt growing up. People around me said "goddammit" and "Jesus Christ!" when I was younger, so I learnt to say it too. It has nothing to do with what the words mean, just like I learnt to say "fuck" (and I said it a lot) before I knew what that word meant. Do you think "fuck" has some mystical power? if I had grown up in ancient Greece I would say "By Zeus!" in Norway "Thors Hammer!" in the middle east "by the Prophets beard!" regardless of whether I believed them or not.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[billvon 2,442]

>if I had grown up in ancient Greece I would say "By Zeus!" in
> Norway "Thors Hammer!" in the middle east "by the Prophets
> beard!" regardless of whether I believed them or not.

"I only said 'that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.' "

"Blasphemy! He said it again!"

"Stone him!"

[jakee 1,262]

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>if I had grown up in ancient Greece I would say "By Zeus!" in
> Norway "Thors Hammer!" in the middle east "by the Prophets
> beard!" regardless of whether I believed them or not.

"I only said 'that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.' "

"Blasphemy! He said it again!"

"Stone him!"

"No-one is going to stone anyone until I blow this whistle even, and I want to make this perfectly clear, even if they do say Jehovah! Aaaarghhhh!"

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

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From what sources have you built up this idea of the nature of hell?

From the teachings of Christ.

Any passages you can quote/ link to?

Matthew 10:28, Matthew 5:22 (quoting Jesus)

[jakee 1,262]

That specifically says destroy, not exist apart from god.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[SpeedRacer 1]

"Blessed are the cheese-makers."

Speed Racer
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[steveorino 7]

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That specifically says destroy, not exist apart from god.

The greek word translated as destroy can be used figurative as well as literally. Again, you fundamental atheist are no different than fundamental Baptist.

steveOrino

[jakee 1,262]

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That specifically says destroy, not exist apart from god.

The greek word translated as destroy can be used figurative as well as literally. Again, you fundamental atheist are no different than fundamental Baptist.

My point is that it could not be used as a source for the idea as hell being apart from god, not because it says something slightly different but because it does not say it at all.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

I already responded to that. JC referred to Gehenna, the garbage dump OUTSIDE Jerusalem as a methaphor for hell.

It was outside the Holy of Holies in Jerusalm, defiled, burned without ceasing, anyone who had contact with it was "spiritually" unclean, and needed atonement.

steveOrino

[jakee 1,262]

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I already responded to that. JC referred to Ghenna, the garbage dump OUTSIDE Jerusalem as a methaphor for hell.

It was outside the Holy of Holies in Jerusalm, defiled, burned without ceasing, anyone who had contact with it was "spiritually" unclean, and needed atonement.

Would you mind telling me where I can find it?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna

and

http://www.bartleby.com/65/hi/Hinnom.html

steveOrino

[jakee 1,262]

***In the Book of Matthew, 23:33, Jesus observes,

"Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?”

Jesus used the word gehenna, not hell, and his audience understood gehenna was an allegorical phrase likening the fate of the "generation of vipers" to that of garbage;

[steveorino 7]

"fate of garbage"? Sort of.

They knew it was a defiled place apart from God. It was also associated with child sacrifice.


Search the word 'hell" in the NT. MOST of them refer to gehenna. There is about a dozen or so.

steveOrino

[freethefly 6]

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>if I had grown up in ancient Greece I would say "By Zeus!" in
> Norway "Thors Hammer!" in the middle east "by the Prophets
> beard!" regardless of whether I believed them or not.

"I only said 'that piece of halibut was good enough for Jehovah.' "

"Blasphemy! He said it again!"

"Stone him!"

Well, they'll stone ya when you're trying to be so good,
They'll stone ya just a-like they said they would.
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to go home.
Then they'll stone ya when you're there all alone.
But I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

Well, they'll stone ya when you're walkin' 'long the street.
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to keep your seat.
They'll stone ya when you're walkin' on the floor.
They'll stone ya when you're walkin' to the door.
But I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

They'll stone ya when you're at the breakfast table.
They'll stone ya when you are young and able.
They'll stone ya when you're tryin' to make a buck.
They'll stone ya and then they'll say, "good luck."
Tell ya what, I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

Well, they'll stone you and say that it's the end.
Then they'll stone you and then they'll come back again.
They'll stone you when you're riding in your car.
They'll stone you when you're playing your guitar.
Yes, but I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

Well, they'll stone you when you walk all alone.
They'll stone you when you are walking home.
They'll stone you and then say you are brave.
They'll stone you when you are set down in your grave.
But I would not feel so all alone,
Everybody must get stoned.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[jakee 1,262]

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"fate of garbage"? Sort of.

They knew it was a defiled place apart from God. It was also associated with child sacrifice.

I was going somewhere with this conversation but cant remember what it was. Anyway, can I take it that you also envisage some other form of (for want of a better word) punishment in hell apart from that seperation from God? I'm not really too bothered with that, just slight curiosity.

After thinking about it my real (twofold) question is why is there a seperate heaven and hell? Why sort out souls into the good and bad (or repentant and unrepentant if you will)?

Second part, how do the two areas of creation gel together? Is the eternal side (heaven and hell) a neccessary repository for the souls created in the temporal universe or is it the other way round. Is this material, temporal universe specifically a place to test us before we 'graduate' to the eternal, non-corporeal realm of the afterlife? When I compare the two it seems that the eternal realm should be the 'higher' realm - more godlike as it were - so why this temporal world at all?

I'm not looking for an argument with these questions, just an understanding of how (and if possible why) you think it all fits together in the long run.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[steveorino 7]

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"fate of garbage"? Sort of.

They knew it was a defiled place apart from God. It was also associated with child sacrifice.

I was going somewhere with this conversation but cant remember what it was. Anyway, can I take it that you also envisage some other form of (for want of a better word) punishment in hell apart from that seperation from God? I'm not really too bothered with that, just slight curiosity.

Honestly, I don't put a lot of emphasis on physical punishment because this body will decay one day and I'm not 100% sure of the properties of the "new body" I'm of the opinion that mental and spiritual torment (mainly regret) is more than enough.

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After thinking about it my real (twofold) question is why is there a seperate heaven and hell? Why sort out souls into the good and bad (or repentant and unrepentant if you will)?

Scriptures points to two separate places for reward and punishment. all the good we do will not be enough. That is why we need grace. Grace offered through JC.

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Second part, how do the two areas of creation gel together? Is the eternal side (heaven and hell) a neccessary repository for the souls created in the temporal universe or is it the other way round. Is this material, temporal universe specifically a place to test us before we 'graduate' to the eternal, non-corporeal realm of the afterlife? When I compare the two it seems that the eternal realm should be the 'higher' realm - more godlike as it were - so why this temporal world at all?

From scripture we learn we were created in a perfect state, but fell. Heaven would be that creation restored.

steveOrino

[jakee 1,262]

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1) Scriptures points to two separate places for reward and punishment. all the good we do will not be enough. That is why we need grace. Grace offered through JC.
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2) From scripture we learn we were created in a perfect state, but fell. Heaven would be that creation restored.

1) Sure, scripture points to - but does it explain (or hint at) why?

2) So is the fall (from eden?) the reason we are currently mortal and not eternal?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[pajarito 0]

This sounds like hell is much more than just separation from God.

[pirana 0]

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So next time a theist says religion is needed for moralty ask them why I didnt get a high positive correlation, indeed why did I get a negative corrleation?

You should not need to ask. The answer is directly deduced from the data.

It is because religious people are much more likely to be emotive instead of deductive thinkers, the effect of which is that they are more prone to acting irrationally and violently.

Next question please.

(OK, maybe "directly deduced" is a stretch.) But still . . .

Next question please.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[steveorino 7]

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This sounds like hell is much more than just separation from God.

But it also sounds like eternal fire exists with eternal darkness. One can't be a metaphor and the other not in the same text. Since it doesn't make sense to have darkness with fire, I suggest the eternal fire, which constitutes punishment by regret is a metaphor like eternal darkness is the absence of God. Just my $00.02

steveOrino