religion and morality

[Butters 0]

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I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable.

You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[steveorino 7]

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I believe we can have our differences on many different Biblical topics as long as our foundation is the same. As long as we agree on what’s really important. We don’t have to agree on whether hell is actually fire or not as long as we both agree that we don’t want to be there and how to avoid it.

Jay, as Augustine said, on the Essentials, have unity. Non-essentials, have liberty. In all things, show charity (love). You and I, my friend, agree on the issues that are most important. I always appreciate your point of view here in SC. And yeah, why am I writing here when I have a case study due?

steveOrino

[steveorino 7]

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I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable.

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You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

steveOrino

[Butters 0]

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I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable.

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You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

I have heard this interpretation before and it actually relates to Atheism, Buddhism, and possibly other religions version of the after life.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[okalb 79]

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Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen something?

Yes, in some cases it was the right thing to do at the time and in some cases it wasn't. Either way it makes me a bad person because it was a bad thing to do, not because some mythical being says it was a bad thing to do. Which is the point of this whole thread.

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Have you ever looked at another woman with lust?

Absolutely, probably at least once a day. I just don't agree with the book that says that it is a bad thing to do. Looking with lust is a healthy natural reaction to a beautiful thing. You believe some book that says otherwise, I don't.

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Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain?

All the time, but it means nothing since I don't have any reason to believe that such a being exists. To me it is a term that I have been taught to use when the doody hits the fan. Not because I believe that there is any being that is listening. Just like when I stub my toe and exclaim "Shit". I don't expect a pile shit to appear. Please understand I am not comparing your beliefs and shit I am just saying that in my world they are both used as exclamations that have no literal meaning.

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[steveorino 7]

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I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable.

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You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

I have heard this interpretation before and it actually relates to Atheism, Buddhism, and possibly other religions version of the after life.

So are you saying my theology on hell is atheistic?

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

You choose to go to hell, if you go. Every time you sin, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong. (conscience = with knowledge). God loved you enough to sacrifice his son for the payment of your penalty. However, he is also just and not corrupt. Because he is just, he will see that justice is done. If you murdered and raped a woman and the judge sentenced you to die, you'd probably think that judge was also mean and heartless. However, he is just seeing that justice is done by carrying out what the law requires. Unless your penalty is paid, you will be punished for your crime. Whether you are sorry for what you have done (you should be), if you promise to never do it again, or you do good deeds from now on in order to try and make up for the past is of no consequence.

[Butters 0]

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I think that hell is much worse than that to the point where it is unfathomable.

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You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

I have heard this interpretation before and it actually relates to Atheism, Buddhism, and possibly other religions version of the after life.

So are you saying my theology on hell is atheistic?

You stated that Hell is not being in God's presence. If God created everything and is everywhere than you can not be in the presence of anything or be anywhere and thus can only be in the presence of nothing and be nowhere. The only way to be in the presence of nothing and be nowhere is to not exist. Atheists believe that after you die you do not exist (besides your physical form).

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Butters 0]

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You have such a moral God, sending people to an unfathomable existence for eternity based on their unwillingness to accept your God as their only savior from the unfathomable existence your God created.

You choose to go to hell, if you go. Every time you sin, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong. (conscience = with knowledge). God loved you enough to sacrifice his son for the payment of your penalty. However, he is also just and not corrupt. Because he is just, he will see that justice is done. If you murdered and raped a woman and the judge sentenced you to die, you'd probably think that judge was also mean and heartless. However, he is just seeing that justice is done by carrying out what the law requires. Unless your penalty is paid, you will be punished for your crime. Whether you are sorry for what you have done (you should be), if you promise to never do it again, or you do good deeds from now on in order to try and make up for the past is of no consequence.

Wrong. If I did something I know is immoral I would not find someone who judged my action as immoral to be mean and heartless.

I find it mean and heartless to send someone to an unfathomable existence for eternity when they created that someone and neglected to give them all the information they needed in a way they would understand and accept to escape that unfathomable existence.

PS: How do you know that your God didn't send Jesus as a sacrifice to humans for your God's immoral actions in the old testament?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[steveorino 7]

You're speaking in physical terms (in the presence) I'm speaking of spiritual terms. I believe the body ceases to exist; ashes to ashes, dust to dust, so to speak. To be absent from God spiritually is to have him withdraw His Spirit. It wouldn't have to follow the laws of physics since a creator would be outside that just as he is outside of time (no past, present or future to God)

steveOrino

[Butters 0]

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You're speaking in physical terms (in the presence) I'm speaking of spiritual terms. I believe the body ceases to exist; ashes to ashes, dust to dust, so to speak. To be absent from God spiritually is to have him withdraw His Spirit. It wouldn't have to follow the laws of physics since a creator would be outside that just as he is outside of time (no past, present or future to God)

I am not sure I understand. Are you stating that your God is everywhere but your God's spirit is not?

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[steveorino 7]

I'm saying you are limiting your understanding of God to physical terms such as time and space. IF God created time and space, he is OUTSIDE it and not limited by it.

steveOrino

[freethefly 6]

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It only becomes a problem when you try to impose those beliefs on me and try to tell me that I am a bad person because I don't believe what you do.

Have you ever told a lie?
Have you ever stolen something?
Have you ever looked at another woman with lust?
Have you ever ever taken the Lord's name in vain?

Are you saying that in your ENTIRE life you have never told a lie? Not even as a small child?
You have never taken a cookie as a child even after your mother said "no"?
As a teenager, when you first started to notice girls, you have never thought that a certain girl looked "Hot"?
You have never smashed a finger and then blurted out a curse such as "Goddamn it"
Are you saying that you are perfect and without any sins, your ENTIRE life, at all? I highly doubt that you are completely without "sin".

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Whether you are sorry for what you have done (you should be), if you promise to never do it again, or you do good deeds from now on in order to try and make up for the past is of no consequence.

This statement implies that regardless of what one does that person is hell bound, no matter what they do to make up for what they have done. So, if you have stolen only one cookie you are on your way to hell. You like bass fishing? Best fire proof your boat as I am told that the lake can be hell on the hull.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[Butters 0]

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I'm saying you are limiting your understanding of God to physical terms such as time and space. IF God created time and space, he is OUTSIDE it and not limited by it.

I understand your God exists beyond time and space hence the reason I stated the only way to not be in the presense of your God (or your God's spirit) is to not exist. I don't think you understand what to not exist means.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[steveorino 7]

I do, but you are equating "not in His presence" as a statement of physicla location. I'm saying being removed from His Spirit ... is a question of spiritual condition, not location. Your spirit exists, but apart from God.

steveOrino

[Butters 0]

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I do, but you are equating "not in His presence" as a statement of physicla location. I'm saying being removed from His Spirit ... is a question of spiritual condition, not location. Your spirit exists, but apart from God.

I am not using everywhere to define only phsyical locations, I am using the word everywhere to define everywhere. Does that make more sense?

Given this use of the word everywhere, are you stating that your God (or your God's spirit) does not exist everywhere. If so, then you could exist but not be in the presence of your God (or your God's spirit). If not, then the only way to not be in the presense of your God (or your God's spirit) would be to not exist.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[steveorino 7]

Semantics. How about if I phrase it this way. You will not sense God's presence in Hell. Your regret, yes, His presense, no.

steveOrino

[pajarito 0]

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I find it mean and heartless to send someone to an unfathomable existence for eternity when they created that someone and neglected to give them all the information they needed in a way they would understand and accept to escape that unfathomable existence.

Not everyone is a child of God. God allows weeds to grow alongside the tares so as not to damage any tares by cutting down the weeds. That is, until time for the harvest. The unrepentant sinner is actually described in the Bible as an enemy of God and a child of the devil.

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PS: How do you know that your God didn't send Jesus as a sacrifice to humans for your God's immoral actions in the old testament?

Because it doesn't say so in the Bible.

[pajarito 0]

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I am not sure I understand. Are you stating that your God is everywhere but your God's spirit is not?

God has no limitation. He created time & space. He is above his creation. He is not his creation nor is he bound by it.

[jcd11235 0]

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One of the problems fundamentalist (Christians and atheist such as yourself) have is they view scripture in ways it was never intended to be, such as a history book or a science book.

I think some also fail to consider the audience to which Jesus spoke. He spoke to relatively small groups of people, not the entire world.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[pajarito 0]

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Are you saying that in your ENTIRE life you have never told a lie? Not even as a small child?
You have never taken a cookie as a child even after your mother said "no"?
As a teenager, when you first started to notice girls, you have never thought that a certain girl looked "Hot"?
You have never smashed a finger and then blurted out a curse such as "Goddamn it"
Are you saying that you are perfect and without any sins, your ENTIRE life, at all? I highly doubt that you are completely without "sin".

That’s not what I’m saying at all. I’ve probably got a worse record than you. I’ve broken every one of God’s moral laws countless times.

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This statement implies that regardless of what one does that person is hell bound, no matter what they do to make up for what they have done. So, if you have stolen only one cookie you are on your way to hell. You like bass fishing? Best fire proof your boat as I am told that the lake can be hell on the hull.

You’re right. There is nothing you or I can do to work ourselves out of debt. However, I will not need that fireproofing because my fine has been paid in full.

[jakee 1,259]

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As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

From what sources have you built up this idea of the nature of hell?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[jcd11235 0]

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You can’t just wish it all away and say that you don’t believe in the law theory of gravity.

Fixed it for you.

Gravity, like evolution, is "only" a theory.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[steveorino 7]

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As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

From what sources have you built up this idea of the nature of hell?

From the teachings of Christ.

steveOrino

[jakee 1,259]

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As I said, for me the unfathomable would to be out of the presence of God. As it appears here, you'd prefer it that way. He'd only be giving you what you wanted.

From what sources have you built up this idea of the nature of hell?

From the teachings of Christ.

Any passages you can quote/ link to?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?