kallend 1,679 #151 November 25, 2006 QuoteCops who are wired up on a hair trigger to kill anything that even APPEARS to be a threat to them is not what this country is supposed to be about. Quote Someone shooting at you isn't someone who APPEARS to be a threat, they have proven themselves to be a threat to you and your teammates lives and their fate is their own fault. I don't disagree that it sucks that the cops kicked down the door in the first place, but do we even know if these were the officers who conducted the investigation from beginning to end? Maybe they were just tasked with serving a warrant and in that case had no idea what they were going into. And even if the men knew the old lady was there, from what I understand they had reason to believe there was someone or something happening in there that was a little more dangerous than an elderly woman. And let us not forget that a little old lady opened fire first. I have personally kicked in a few doors with innocent people on the other side, sometimes you are led to the wrong place, I have never shot anybody in any of these houses but no matter how innocent these people were if any of them had ever taken a shot at me their innocence would have gone out the window. It doesn't matter if you are doing it in self-defense once you take that shot the other person now has the same right to self-defense as you do and it comes down to who's the better shot. Your argument would entitle any home invader to shoot a householder defending her home, and claim "self defence". Your recent post in Bonfire, www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2544296#2544296 and even your sig line, shows you to be someone who readily resorts to violent solutions to problems.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #152 November 25, 2006 I feel the same way about criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Quote How can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #153 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. I used exactly the same logic you used in your previous post. If cops get shot at because they made a mistake with the warrant, but can still kill someone who is justly defending her home and claim self defense, then a criminal should be able to shoot a cop who pulls his gun and claim self defense. It's exactly the same thing, just with the roles reversed. If the cops aren't held responsible for the mistake with the warrant that ultimately led to the killing, then the criminal should also not be held responsible for the crime that ultimately led to the cop drawing his gun. I don't think cops should be held to lower standards than the civilians they are supposed to protect and serve.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #154 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteSomeone shooting at you isn't someone who APPEARS to be a threat, they have proven themselves to be a threat to you and your teammates lives and their fate is their own fault. I don't disagree that it sucks that the cops kicked down the door in the first place, but do we even know if these were the officers who conducted the investigation from beginning to end? Maybe they were just tasked with serving a warrant and in that case had no idea what they were going into. And even if the men knew the old lady was there, from what I understand they had reason to believe there was someone or something happening in there that was a little more dangerous than an elderly woman. And let us not forget that a little old lady opened fire first. I have personally kicked in a few doors with innocent people on the other side, sometimes you are led to the wrong place, I have never shot anybody in any of these houses but no matter how innocent these people were if any of them had ever taken a shot at me their innocence would have gone out the window. It doesn't matter if you are doing it in self-defense once you take that shot the other person now has the same right to self-defense as you do and it comes down to who's the better shot. Then the same logic should apply to criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Disagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #155 November 25, 2006 Your argument would entitle any home invader to shoot a householder defending her home, and claim "self defence". Your recent post in Bonfire, http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2544296#2544296 and even your sig line, shows you to be someone who readily resorts to violent solutions to problems. Quote Remember what I said to you once about twisting things people say to perpetuate an argument, perfect example right here. Go back to my post in the bonfire and read my reply to you, I didn't start a fight I asked someone to leave who had acted inappropriately towards a lady I am friends with, I did it in a non-threatening manner and extremely politely, a fight broke out and I was so close to the guy that I was committed so I took action to protect myself and my friends. I avoid fights at all costs, I stepped in because I am the least agressive of the people I was there with and wanted to avoid that situation. My argument about a home invader acting in self defense, Police announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. And even if they are plain clothes Officers I guarantee they had some sort of identifying feature, whether it be putting on windbreakers as they went in or having exposed badges. And my sig line, of all the things to twist, soldiers stand ready to protect the country, Americans can go to bed knowing that they are safe from foreign invaders within their borders because of these soldiers, how does that make me out to be a violent person. How about you take the time to get to know me before jumping to that conclusion. You and I have even had some exchanges via PM which were very friendly on both our sides and you stil tag me as being a violent hot head. This is truly pathetic, I though you were a bigger man than that Prof. Kallend.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #156 November 25, 2006 QuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #157 November 25, 2006 QuoteI feel the same way about criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Quote How can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. _____________________________ Right-on! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #158 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal suspect, (presumed innocent) and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals suspect's agressive behavior. A criminal suspect is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. Fixed it for ya. edit: and unless these cops are completely incompetent, they had to know they were being shot at by a 92 year old lady, who was clearly not the suspect outlined in the warrant. QuoteOne was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #159 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #160 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #161 November 25, 2006 Fixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #162 November 25, 2006 QuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #163 November 25, 2006 QuoteFixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out? I think the original reports said the raid occured at 7-7:30pm which is about 2 hours after sunset. The CNN report from Thursday had some additional information from the original story. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/23/atlanta.shooting/ QuotePolice spokesman Joe Cobb said the three officers on that team had made an undercover drug buy earlier in day from a man inside Johnston's home west of downtown Atlanta. Police said they obtained a "no-knock" search warrant within hours of making the buy and went back to the house to serve it. But Dreher said the officers did announce themselves right before they broke the burglar bars and wood door to get inside. Johnston, who relatives said lived alone, fired at officers with a revolver as they entered her home, wounding three, Dreher said. At least one of the officers fired back, killing the woman, he said. Two of Johnston's neighbors, Nina Robinson and Sallie Strickland, said the elderly woman was fearful and never let anyone into her home. Strickland said Johnston wouldn't even let her come in when she brought groceries for her, instead telling Strickland to leave them on the porch. It's difficult to reconcile how the undercover narc's managed to buy from inside the residence of a woman who lived in such fear that she wouldn't open the door for her neighbors delivering groceries. It sounds like events transpired pretty quickly. Maybe if we took guns away from aging shut-ins, things like this wouldn't happen. Remember the crazy old man who shot the teenager for walking on his lawn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. 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GQ_jumper 4 #152 November 25, 2006 I feel the same way about criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Quote How can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #153 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. I used exactly the same logic you used in your previous post. If cops get shot at because they made a mistake with the warrant, but can still kill someone who is justly defending her home and claim self defense, then a criminal should be able to shoot a cop who pulls his gun and claim self defense. It's exactly the same thing, just with the roles reversed. If the cops aren't held responsible for the mistake with the warrant that ultimately led to the killing, then the criminal should also not be held responsible for the crime that ultimately led to the cop drawing his gun. I don't think cops should be held to lower standards than the civilians they are supposed to protect and serve.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #154 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteSomeone shooting at you isn't someone who APPEARS to be a threat, they have proven themselves to be a threat to you and your teammates lives and their fate is their own fault. I don't disagree that it sucks that the cops kicked down the door in the first place, but do we even know if these were the officers who conducted the investigation from beginning to end? Maybe they were just tasked with serving a warrant and in that case had no idea what they were going into. And even if the men knew the old lady was there, from what I understand they had reason to believe there was someone or something happening in there that was a little more dangerous than an elderly woman. And let us not forget that a little old lady opened fire first. I have personally kicked in a few doors with innocent people on the other side, sometimes you are led to the wrong place, I have never shot anybody in any of these houses but no matter how innocent these people were if any of them had ever taken a shot at me their innocence would have gone out the window. It doesn't matter if you are doing it in self-defense once you take that shot the other person now has the same right to self-defense as you do and it comes down to who's the better shot. Then the same logic should apply to criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Disagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #155 November 25, 2006 Your argument would entitle any home invader to shoot a householder defending her home, and claim "self defence". Your recent post in Bonfire, http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2544296#2544296 and even your sig line, shows you to be someone who readily resorts to violent solutions to problems. Quote Remember what I said to you once about twisting things people say to perpetuate an argument, perfect example right here. Go back to my post in the bonfire and read my reply to you, I didn't start a fight I asked someone to leave who had acted inappropriately towards a lady I am friends with, I did it in a non-threatening manner and extremely politely, a fight broke out and I was so close to the guy that I was committed so I took action to protect myself and my friends. I avoid fights at all costs, I stepped in because I am the least agressive of the people I was there with and wanted to avoid that situation. My argument about a home invader acting in self defense, Police announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. And even if they are plain clothes Officers I guarantee they had some sort of identifying feature, whether it be putting on windbreakers as they went in or having exposed badges. And my sig line, of all the things to twist, soldiers stand ready to protect the country, Americans can go to bed knowing that they are safe from foreign invaders within their borders because of these soldiers, how does that make me out to be a violent person. How about you take the time to get to know me before jumping to that conclusion. You and I have even had some exchanges via PM which were very friendly on both our sides and you stil tag me as being a violent hot head. This is truly pathetic, I though you were a bigger man than that Prof. Kallend.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #156 November 25, 2006 QuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #157 November 25, 2006 QuoteI feel the same way about criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Quote How can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. _____________________________ Right-on! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #158 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal suspect, (presumed innocent) and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals suspect's agressive behavior. A criminal suspect is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. Fixed it for ya. edit: and unless these cops are completely incompetent, they had to know they were being shot at by a 92 year old lady, who was clearly not the suspect outlined in the warrant. QuoteOne was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #159 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #160 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #161 November 25, 2006 Fixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #162 November 25, 2006 QuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #163 November 25, 2006 QuoteFixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out? I think the original reports said the raid occured at 7-7:30pm which is about 2 hours after sunset. The CNN report from Thursday had some additional information from the original story. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/23/atlanta.shooting/ QuotePolice spokesman Joe Cobb said the three officers on that team had made an undercover drug buy earlier in day from a man inside Johnston's home west of downtown Atlanta. Police said they obtained a "no-knock" search warrant within hours of making the buy and went back to the house to serve it. But Dreher said the officers did announce themselves right before they broke the burglar bars and wood door to get inside. Johnston, who relatives said lived alone, fired at officers with a revolver as they entered her home, wounding three, Dreher said. At least one of the officers fired back, killing the woman, he said. Two of Johnston's neighbors, Nina Robinson and Sallie Strickland, said the elderly woman was fearful and never let anyone into her home. Strickland said Johnston wouldn't even let her come in when she brought groceries for her, instead telling Strickland to leave them on the porch. It's difficult to reconcile how the undercover narc's managed to buy from inside the residence of a woman who lived in such fear that she wouldn't open the door for her neighbors delivering groceries. It sounds like events transpired pretty quickly. Maybe if we took guns away from aging shut-ins, things like this wouldn't happen. Remember the crazy old man who shot the teenager for walking on his lawn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. 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jcd11235 0 #153 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. I used exactly the same logic you used in your previous post. If cops get shot at because they made a mistake with the warrant, but can still kill someone who is justly defending her home and claim self defense, then a criminal should be able to shoot a cop who pulls his gun and claim self defense. It's exactly the same thing, just with the roles reversed. If the cops aren't held responsible for the mistake with the warrant that ultimately led to the killing, then the criminal should also not be held responsible for the crime that ultimately led to the cop drawing his gun. I don't think cops should be held to lower standards than the civilians they are supposed to protect and serve.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #154 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteSomeone shooting at you isn't someone who APPEARS to be a threat, they have proven themselves to be a threat to you and your teammates lives and their fate is their own fault. I don't disagree that it sucks that the cops kicked down the door in the first place, but do we even know if these were the officers who conducted the investigation from beginning to end? Maybe they were just tasked with serving a warrant and in that case had no idea what they were going into. And even if the men knew the old lady was there, from what I understand they had reason to believe there was someone or something happening in there that was a little more dangerous than an elderly woman. And let us not forget that a little old lady opened fire first. I have personally kicked in a few doors with innocent people on the other side, sometimes you are led to the wrong place, I have never shot anybody in any of these houses but no matter how innocent these people were if any of them had ever taken a shot at me their innocence would have gone out the window. It doesn't matter if you are doing it in self-defense once you take that shot the other person now has the same right to self-defense as you do and it comes down to who's the better shot. Then the same logic should apply to criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Disagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #155 November 25, 2006 Your argument would entitle any home invader to shoot a householder defending her home, and claim "self defence". Your recent post in Bonfire, http://www.dropzone.com/...post=2544296#2544296 and even your sig line, shows you to be someone who readily resorts to violent solutions to problems. Quote Remember what I said to you once about twisting things people say to perpetuate an argument, perfect example right here. Go back to my post in the bonfire and read my reply to you, I didn't start a fight I asked someone to leave who had acted inappropriately towards a lady I am friends with, I did it in a non-threatening manner and extremely politely, a fight broke out and I was so close to the guy that I was committed so I took action to protect myself and my friends. I avoid fights at all costs, I stepped in because I am the least agressive of the people I was there with and wanted to avoid that situation. My argument about a home invader acting in self defense, Police announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. And even if they are plain clothes Officers I guarantee they had some sort of identifying feature, whether it be putting on windbreakers as they went in or having exposed badges. And my sig line, of all the things to twist, soldiers stand ready to protect the country, Americans can go to bed knowing that they are safe from foreign invaders within their borders because of these soldiers, how does that make me out to be a violent person. How about you take the time to get to know me before jumping to that conclusion. You and I have even had some exchanges via PM which were very friendly on both our sides and you stil tag me as being a violent hot head. This is truly pathetic, I though you were a bigger man than that Prof. Kallend.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #156 November 25, 2006 QuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #157 November 25, 2006 QuoteI feel the same way about criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Quote How can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. _____________________________ Right-on! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #158 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal suspect, (presumed innocent) and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals suspect's agressive behavior. A criminal suspect is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. Fixed it for ya. edit: and unless these cops are completely incompetent, they had to know they were being shot at by a 92 year old lady, who was clearly not the suspect outlined in the warrant. QuoteOne was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #159 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #160 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #161 November 25, 2006 Fixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #162 November 25, 2006 QuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #163 November 25, 2006 QuoteFixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out? I think the original reports said the raid occured at 7-7:30pm which is about 2 hours after sunset. The CNN report from Thursday had some additional information from the original story. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/23/atlanta.shooting/ QuotePolice spokesman Joe Cobb said the three officers on that team had made an undercover drug buy earlier in day from a man inside Johnston's home west of downtown Atlanta. Police said they obtained a "no-knock" search warrant within hours of making the buy and went back to the house to serve it. But Dreher said the officers did announce themselves right before they broke the burglar bars and wood door to get inside. Johnston, who relatives said lived alone, fired at officers with a revolver as they entered her home, wounding three, Dreher said. At least one of the officers fired back, killing the woman, he said. Two of Johnston's neighbors, Nina Robinson and Sallie Strickland, said the elderly woman was fearful and never let anyone into her home. Strickland said Johnston wouldn't even let her come in when she brought groceries for her, instead telling Strickland to leave them on the porch. It's difficult to reconcile how the undercover narc's managed to buy from inside the residence of a woman who lived in such fear that she wouldn't open the door for her neighbors delivering groceries. It sounds like events transpired pretty quickly. Maybe if we took guns away from aging shut-ins, things like this wouldn't happen. Remember the crazy old man who shot the teenager for walking on his lawn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. 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jcd11235 0 #156 November 25, 2006 QuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #157 November 25, 2006 QuoteI feel the same way about criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense. Quote How can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals agressive behavior. A criminal is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. _____________________________ Right-on! Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #158 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal suspect, (presumed innocent) and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals suspect's agressive behavior. A criminal suspect is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. Fixed it for ya. edit: and unless these cops are completely incompetent, they had to know they were being shot at by a 92 year old lady, who was clearly not the suspect outlined in the warrant. QuoteOne was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mnealtx 0 #159 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #160 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #161 November 25, 2006 Fixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #162 November 25, 2006 QuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #163 November 25, 2006 QuoteFixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out? I think the original reports said the raid occured at 7-7:30pm which is about 2 hours after sunset. The CNN report from Thursday had some additional information from the original story. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/23/atlanta.shooting/ QuotePolice spokesman Joe Cobb said the three officers on that team had made an undercover drug buy earlier in day from a man inside Johnston's home west of downtown Atlanta. Police said they obtained a "no-knock" search warrant within hours of making the buy and went back to the house to serve it. But Dreher said the officers did announce themselves right before they broke the burglar bars and wood door to get inside. Johnston, who relatives said lived alone, fired at officers with a revolver as they entered her home, wounding three, Dreher said. At least one of the officers fired back, killing the woman, he said. Two of Johnston's neighbors, Nina Robinson and Sallie Strickland, said the elderly woman was fearful and never let anyone into her home. Strickland said Johnston wouldn't even let her come in when she brought groceries for her, instead telling Strickland to leave them on the porch. It's difficult to reconcile how the undercover narc's managed to buy from inside the residence of a woman who lived in such fear that she wouldn't open the door for her neighbors delivering groceries. It sounds like events transpired pretty quickly. Maybe if we took guns away from aging shut-ins, things like this wouldn't happen. Remember the crazy old man who shot the teenager for walking on his lawn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 7 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0 Go To Topic Listing
Samurai136 0 #158 November 25, 2006 QuoteHow can you possibly justify that? Police Officers are charged with upholding the law, if they approach a criminal suspect, (presumed innocent) and feel that they are threatened pulling a gun is a good way to alleviate a criminals suspect's agressive behavior. A criminal suspect is far less likely to get agressive with a weapon aimed at them IMO. Fixed it for ya. edit: and unless these cops are completely incompetent, they had to know they were being shot at by a 92 year old lady, who was clearly not the suspect outlined in the warrant. QuoteOne was hit in the arm, another in a thigh and the third in a shoulder. The officers were taken to a hospital for treatment, and all three were conscious and alert, police said."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mnealtx 0 #159 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order.Mike I love you, Shannon and Jim. POPS 9708 , SCR 14706 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #160 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GQ_jumper 4 #161 November 25, 2006 Fixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out?History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Amazon 7 #162 November 25, 2006 QuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #163 November 25, 2006 QuoteFixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out? I think the original reports said the raid occured at 7-7:30pm which is about 2 hours after sunset. The CNN report from Thursday had some additional information from the original story. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/23/atlanta.shooting/ QuotePolice spokesman Joe Cobb said the three officers on that team had made an undercover drug buy earlier in day from a man inside Johnston's home west of downtown Atlanta. Police said they obtained a "no-knock" search warrant within hours of making the buy and went back to the house to serve it. But Dreher said the officers did announce themselves right before they broke the burglar bars and wood door to get inside. Johnston, who relatives said lived alone, fired at officers with a revolver as they entered her home, wounding three, Dreher said. At least one of the officers fired back, killing the woman, he said. Two of Johnston's neighbors, Nina Robinson and Sallie Strickland, said the elderly woman was fearful and never let anyone into her home. Strickland said Johnston wouldn't even let her come in when she brought groceries for her, instead telling Strickland to leave them on the porch. It's difficult to reconcile how the undercover narc's managed to buy from inside the residence of a woman who lived in such fear that she wouldn't open the door for her neighbors delivering groceries. It sounds like events transpired pretty quickly. Maybe if we took guns away from aging shut-ins, things like this wouldn't happen. Remember the crazy old man who shot the teenager for walking on his lawn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. 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Amazon 7 #162 November 25, 2006 QuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #163 November 25, 2006 QuoteFixed it for ya.Quote I agree with you completely on that part, it's just the way I worded it but regardless of whether the cops knew who was shooting at them or not, it is still someone shooting at them. I'll have to look at the story a bit closer but was there a chance that they may have gone in when it was dark and the lights may have been out? I think the original reports said the raid occured at 7-7:30pm which is about 2 hours after sunset. The CNN report from Thursday had some additional information from the original story. http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/11/23/atlanta.shooting/ QuotePolice spokesman Joe Cobb said the three officers on that team had made an undercover drug buy earlier in day from a man inside Johnston's home west of downtown Atlanta. Police said they obtained a "no-knock" search warrant within hours of making the buy and went back to the house to serve it. But Dreher said the officers did announce themselves right before they broke the burglar bars and wood door to get inside. Johnston, who relatives said lived alone, fired at officers with a revolver as they entered her home, wounding three, Dreher said. At least one of the officers fired back, killing the woman, he said. Two of Johnston's neighbors, Nina Robinson and Sallie Strickland, said the elderly woman was fearful and never let anyone into her home. Strickland said Johnston wouldn't even let her come in when she brought groceries for her, instead telling Strickland to leave them on the porch. It's difficult to reconcile how the undercover narc's managed to buy from inside the residence of a woman who lived in such fear that she wouldn't open the door for her neighbors delivering groceries. It sounds like events transpired pretty quickly. Maybe if we took guns away from aging shut-ins, things like this wouldn't happen. Remember the crazy old man who shot the teenager for walking on his lawn."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 Next Page 7 of 8 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
GQ_jumper 4 #164 November 25, 2006 I just looked over a number of articles related to the event and there are still quite a few things that need to be addressed before we can really come to any conclusions, but for the most part I don't see any reason for the officers to be punished. It was a tragic set of circumstances but they acted in a manner fitting to the situation that presented itself. As for people calling them completely inept, the warrant was served during hours of darkness, so when the shots were fired they had no idea who it was, someone shot and they reacted accordingly. The warrant was a "no-knock" warrant, but they did announce themselves and all had vests marked "Police", warrants like this can very well be justified, there are times when announcing yourself before entering will only put you in an excessive amount of danger and allow the suspect the opportunity to escape or better prepare themselves to put up a fight. Ont thing that hasn't been answered is whether this is positively the right house, which all the officers involved say it is. and if nothing was goign on there than why were they able to buy drugs from someone on the scene, and why did they find drugs(supposedly, they haven't finished being tested yet) in the house after the shooting? It sucks this woman was killed but everyone should quit jumping on the police immedeatly looking for someone to hang, everybody is screaming about the presumption of innocence, well that right extends to the police officers as well, so how about we wait until something conclusive comes out to place blame, remember these men have to live with this on their concious, even though they acted in self defense.History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid. --Dwight D. Eisenhower Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #165 November 25, 2006 Sorry, but a lot of what you write strongly suggests that you consider violence an option of first resort, and that you relish violent solutions to life's problems. Not a PA; that's just how you come across to me.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #166 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Samurai136 0 #167 November 25, 2006 There has been some discussion of a civilian police review board. From The Atlanta Journal-Constitution Published on: 11/19/06 http://www.ajc.com/metro/content/metro/dekalb/stories/2006/11/18/1119metauditor.html QuoteThat's the kind of oversight that John Evans, a local civil rights activist, would like to see in DeKalb County, where police have shot and killed 12 people this year — more than any other department in metro Atlanta. Earlier this month, The Atlanta Journal-Constitution examined internal reports of 31 shootings from 2001 to 2005 and found that officers had patterns of violating department policy, such as forcing confrontations with armed suspects without backup, shooting into moving cars and neglecting safety rules for handling suspects once they were in custody. Most of the officers involved were not disciplined, the newspaper found, and the department did not address the pattern of violations in its training programs."Buttons aren't toys." - Trillian Ken Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #168 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #169 November 25, 2006 QuoteQuotePolice announcing themselves and a home invader breaking in are two different things. EAH>> WHAATS THAT YOU SAY SONNY..... I DONT HEAR SO WELL AND MY EYESIGHT IS SO BAD I HAVE COKE BOTTOM GLASSES SO THICK MY EYS LOOK TO BE ABOUT 3" IN DIAMETER.... With the ageing population in this country.. this is going to become a VERY common problem.. my mother has fonts that are 36 point at LEAST.. for her to be able to read. And she is v ery hard of hearing and she is only 77 Lots of people on here proclaim the need to be armed to defend your home, but clearly this poor little white haired old lady would have been far better off (as in not dead) by being unarmed. Another victim of the gun culture.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #170 November 25, 2006 QuoteWhat were the cops supposed to do? They could have started by doing their jobs properly before executing the warrant. When resorting to violence, there is no room for error. If the cops f'ed up (as it appears thus far), they should be held accountable for their actions.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #171 November 26, 2006 I agree. If, they did screw-up, they need to be held accountable... just like anyone else. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterrig 1 #172 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteDisagree - a cop pulling a gun on a bank robber is doing it in public service. I see it as being much different than a case of mistaken identity. What, exactly, is the logical difference? The police officer is not generally considered a threat to the public / law and order. That doesn't seem to be the case this time. I'm sure the grandkids are cool with grandma's death, since it was the cops who killed her. ______________________________ What were the cops supposed to do? "Sorry granny! Didn't know how old you were. We'll just leave!" How did they know, at the time, her true age. To the cops, it could've been someone in disguise. We don't know every aspect of this incident. All we have is what the press says. We don't have all sides of the story. Unless we find-out otherwise, I'm takin' the cop's side. They got the wrong address (as it turns out). Poo-poo happens. Somebody, just anybody, show me where, the cops in this incident 'showed intent' to harm a 92-yr. old woman! The cops acted in defense of their own lives. They acted the way they were trained. That's the way it is. Folks who don't like the way the cops are... get-out there and change it. Chuck Just like the Amadou Diallo case, eh? Blame the victim, the cops can't be wrong. What with a "I want to be a war president" CinC who lies his way into a war, and people who defend cops doing things like this, no wonder we have a violent society. __________________________________ We've basically, been a so-called 'violent society' since the Pilgrims. It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. Chuck Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ExAFO 0 #173 November 26, 2006 Quote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom."Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
likearock 1 #174 November 26, 2006 Quote If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with. Chuck The question remains. What would you do if you heard a pounding on your door, people yelling that they are police and you have 20 seconds to unlock and lie spread eagle on the floor. And there was no way for you to know if they really were cops or not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,679 #175 November 26, 2006 QuoteQuote...It's real easy to be a Monday morning quarterback. None of us was there. None of us has all the facts. A fact lost on many on this board, and twisted to non-sequitor topics, such as drugs, guns, and half-assed whiny diatribes on narcissism and selfishness clothed in the deceitful guise of "personal freedom." A fact lost on many is that we have become a society that routinely excuses cops shooting little old ladies and similar atrocities, like the Diallo case. A society that accepts phonetapping without a court order. A society that accepts cameras on street corners. A society that accepts all the trappings of a police state.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
