Cops are such hereos

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

So you too think illegal drugs are a "Victimless" crime?

IMO any one who is supporting the use of illegal drugs is not looking close enough to what is happening.

Or maybe they are the ones looking closely.

Quote

Look at the folks who mug, rob and steal to make funds for a "rock".

Do you really believe those muggings, robberies and thefts would take place if the War On Drugs did not artificially reduce supply to the point that $.10 worth of cocaine has a street value of $100? I seriously doubt it, for the same reason we don't read about people mugging people for cigarettes. There might still be some shoplifting, but that's pretty minor compared to what we have now.

Quote

How about the innocents shot and killed when two rival drug "lords" shoot it out with each other?

Again, this violence is a byproduct of the War On Drugs, not the drugs themselves.

Quote

Maybe you have been lucky enough not to see this first hand. I hope so.

Seen it. It is another reason why I am against the treasonous War On Drugs. I've also seen friends die from OD, something that would be far less likely in a society where it is legal to learn to use drugs in a responsible manner, instead of bingeing while the cops aren't around.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

So you too think illegal drugs are a "Victimless" crime?

Drugs use is a victimless crime.

The laws that make them illegal are not.

Quote

Look at the folks who mug, rob and steal to make funds for a "rock".

Cocaine comes from a plant. It's only valuable because of the laws against its manufacture, sale, and use . If it was legal addicts could support their habbit with day jobs or begging like they do with alcohol. Or with free drugs from the government that would cost less than incarceration.

Quote

How about the innocents shot and killed when to rival drug "lords" shoot it out with each other.

Turf wars between Anheuser-Busch and Coors or Ely-Lily and Pfizer don't involve guns.

[billvon 2,454]

>IMO any one who is supporting the use of illegal drugs is not looking
>close enough to what is happening. Look at the folks who mug, rob and
>steal to make funds for a "rock". How about the innocents shot and killed
>when to rival drug "lords" shoot it out with each other.

You are listing reasons why the War on Drugs is failing, not how drugs are themselves a "crime." Alcohol and drugs cause far more physical damage than illegal drugs, but there is far less violence associated with them. Why? Because you don't have to be a criminal to buy a beer. If the police break down your door and you have a fridge full of beer, or a pack of cigarettes on the table, your choices are not limited to "fight them or go to jail." You don't have to steal $200 for a beer. You don't need to support organized crime to buy tequila.

I think it's important to separate the evils done by the drugs themselves and the evils created by the "war on drugs."

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

OK, as far as religion. If it was ONLY for religion I would see your point as valid. But sadly it isn't.

A Shamen uses small amounts of peyote, RAW cocoa leaves, etc.

Peyote, psilocybin, LSD, DMT, ayahuasca, and many, many more are used by shamen.

Quote

Not refined, packaged and sold at huge mark up on the street corner.

They obtain their entheogens how they obtain their entheogens. Some do get them on the street corner at a huge mark up (which is due to the treasonous War On Drugs.)

Quote

A Rasta who is practicing would again have my help in a Religious defense, not the one carrying 20 kilos to a dance party.

Every Rasta I've ever met shares. I think they believe it to be a part of being a good Christian. Still, I've never seen anyone show up at a "dance party" with 44 pounds of ganja. Usually such quantities are handled a bit more discreetly. Furthermore, Rastas are praising Jah every time they smoke ganja.

Quote

I would think that if the Treason argument would work it would have been tried. Maybe Criminal Defense Attorneys are smarter than us and figured it wouldn't work?

How would you know if it's never been tried? I believe it could be a strong part of a multi-faceted defense, with the right attorney.

Quote

And again I do not see it as a war on its citizens. The Constitution allows for these laws, it also allows for us to vote the politicians out and to change the laws.

Again, show me where the Constitution was amended to allow such legislation. Just because the legislation exists does not mean it is Constitutional. One cannot make that claim unless it has been challenged in court.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[matthewcline 0]

Point Taken.

I still don't see a valid point for the war on drugs being treasonous.

So those of you who support legalization feel the related crime would "go away" if that happened?

legal issues aside,
Who would you hire to work for you?
Who would you want to mother a child?
a drug user or a non-drug user? (so far only Marijuana has a non-dependency relationship with its user, yes?

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[masterrig 1]

Not only was he using that shit... he was dealing crack to kids!!!
I can't see where, the war on drugs is treasonous or creates crime. Help me out with that point. It's like any other business... supply and demand. The sellers have the 'supply' and those who crave it are the 'demand'.


Chuck

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

So those of you who support legalization feel the related crime would "go away" if that happened?

Largely, yes. There would still be some minor stuff, such as shoplifting, but nothing on the scale we see now.

Quote

legal issues aside,
Who would you hire to work for you?

A drug user over an alcohol user every day of the week, and twice on Sunday. I tend to not trust people who are sober all of the time.

Quote

Who would you want to mother a child?
a drug user or a non-drug user?

Assuming proper precautions were taken during pregnancy and breast feeding, there is nothing wrong with parents that use drugs in a responsible manner.

Quote

(so far only Marijuana has a non-dependency relationship with its user, yes?

Studies suggest that there is a minimal psychological dependence with marijuana. Other drugs that are even less addictive, physically and psychologically, include LSD and psilocybin.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Not only was he using that shit... he was dealing crack to kids!!!
I can't see where, the war on drugs is treasonous or creates crime. Help me out with that point. It's like any other business... supply and demand. The sellers have the 'supply' and those who crave it are the 'demand'.

I trust you have read the remainder of the thread by now. Your concerns have been addressed. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask for clarification.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[matthewcline 0]

The 4 and 5 article give the congress the power to amend the Constitution and in the case of the states self rule if you will.

I actually think the 14th amendment would be a better argument if coupled with the 1st.

It has been enlightening and fun, as it is our right to debate.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

The 4 and 5 article give the congress the power to amend the Constitution and in the case of the states self rule if you will.

I absolutely agree that the Congress has the right to amend the Constitution. However, amending the Constitution is very different than just passing legislation. To the best of my knowledge, Congress has not amended the Constitution to change the definition of treason.

Quote

I actually think the 14th amendment would be a better argument if coupled with the 1st.

I agree that the 14th Amendment is also applicable.

Quote

It has been enlightening and fun, as it is our right to debate.

It's supposed to be our right to debate over bong hits! (or lines, etc; whatever your chemical of choice might be)

I've enjoyed this discussion in spite of my sobriety, however.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[matthewcline 0]

But the definition of treason and its further definitions discuss war between the nation and either another nation or an armed uprising. So I feel it doesn't fit.

Keep the Bong and lines for your self and I will have a little Ben and Jerry's. After all it is protected as a Religion.

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

But the definition of treason and its further definitions discuss war between the nation and either another nation or an armed uprising. So I feel it doesn't fit.

Keep the Bong and lines for your self and I will have a little Ben and Jerry's. After all it is protected as a Religion.

I'm using the mathematical/logical definition of "or." What definition are you using?

Quote

Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.

The Congress shall have power to declare the Punishment of Treason, but no Attainder of Treason shall work Corruption of Blood, or Forfeiture except during the Life of the Person attainted.

(emphasis mine)

BTW, enjoy your Ben & Jerry's. It's good stuff. I have to admit, I prefer Breyers.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[livetofall 0]

Your are right, treason has nothing to do with this subject. I would like to see drugs legal so these certain "folks"(possible bannable materal) arent making anymore more money off illicits. Ha! If they were next to free available from the gov, the junkie can either seek help or kill himself with the stuff..sweep up the mess, like needle park Amsterdam. Now all of a sudden these "folks" arent controlling a big money market, drivng nice cars with crap rap music to where its deafening and go back to shooting craps in the alley where they belong... Our prisons are too nice to stop the drugs, these animals dont care if they go back. Dont forget they love to get your little daughter messed up on them too. cut down on illegals also.
The best way to keep your child off drugs:
take him up to a dead body in the street and say "this is what drugs do".
And there will be plenty after they are legalized. More treatment less prison, and less innocents, shot, because now all them "folks" dont have a product to war the competition or high price to pay for...off to McDonalds..degenerate

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

Quote

The 4 and 5 article give the congress the power to amend the Constitution and in the case of the states self rule if you will.

I absolutely agree that the Congress has the right to amend the Constitution.

Sorry, but neither of you are fully correct about this. Congress cannot unilaterally amend the Constitution, ever (unless some day an amendment is passed to change the method of amendment). Congress can be part of the process, but if the proposed amendment, after having passed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, is not thereafter ratified by three-quarters of the states, it is not adopted. (The only other method of amending the Constitution is a Constitutional Convention, a method which has not yet been used to adopt new amendments.)

Cite:
http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html#process

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Congress cannot unilaterally amend the Constitution, ever (unless some day an amendment is passed to change the method of amendment). Congress can be part of the process, but if the proposed amendment, after having passed by a two-thirds majority in both houses of Congress, is not thereafter ratified by three-quarters of the states, it is not adopted. (The only other method of amending the Constitution is a Constitutional Convention, a method which has not yet been used to adopt new amendments.)

Cite:
http://www.usconstitution.net/constam.html#process

Touche. Thanks for making that correction.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[matthewcline 0]

And right you are.
I always leave the ratification part out as I am sure so many others do too.
When was the last time a ratification failed?

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[DrewEckhardt 0]

Quote

So those of you who support legalization feel the related crime would "go away" if that happened?

The serious problems (shooting wars, robbery (but not petty theft), toxic waste from clandestine meth labs, easier access for minors than alcohol) would.

Quote

Who would you hire to work for you?

Any one who can do the work and be sober on the job.

Quote

Who would you want to mother a child?

Some one willing to refrain from using drugs adn alcohol during pregnancy+breast feeding and while responsible for the children. Adults should be free to have a beer, joint, or line while some other trusted responsible person is watching their kids.

Quote

a drug user or a non-drug user? (so far only Marijuana has a non-dependency relationship with its user, yes?

As long as they're responsible about their use it doesn't matter.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

When was the last time a ratification failed?

1985

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

Not only was he using that shit... he was dealing crack to kids!!!
I can't see where, the war on drugs is treasonous or creates crime. Help me out with that point. It's like any other business... supply and demand. The sellers have the 'supply' and those who crave it are the 'demand'.

I trust you have read the remainder of the thread by now. Your concerns have been addressed. If you still have any questions, feel free to ask for clarification.

______________________________

After having read the rest of this thread, I've gotten my answer.


Chuck

[likearock 1]

Quote

I'd have to agree with you! Someone brought-up the subject of 'intel'. When the intel is not good, we tend to hear of the wrong doors getting kicked-in. The wrong doors will get kicked-in especially, when the bad guys give an incorrect address when booked for an offense. I know that because, that's what one of my ex neighbors did. We informed the cops, he was giving the wrong address and he was subsequently arrested on several drug charges.

The problem is not so much whether intel is good or bad, we nothing's perfect and mistakes will be made. There's always the chance that the 20 second rule will come to your door. But even that, in and of itself, isn't the problem. The real problem is that the 20 second rule allows people to impersonate the police and thereby gain entry to your house. If the police had to slip a warrant under the door to get in, you would never be faced with not knowing whether you're resisting the police or simply defending your home. That's why the 20 second rule is bad law, in spite of its tactical advantages in certain situations.

[billvon 2,454]

>I still don't see a valid point for the war on drugs being treasonous.

I agree there

>Who would you hire to work for you?

Right now? I wouldn't mind a smoker (tobacco or pot) but wouldn't want a heavy drinker, or heavy cocaine user, or methamphetamine user.

>Who would you want to mother a child?

Did you mean "in general?" It's a good idea to avoid all drugs (legal or otherwise) during pregnancy. The legality of tobacco and alcohol do not make them safe during pregnancy - and the illegality of other drugs does not prevent pregnant women from using them.

[wuffo2 0]

OK. I'm new here so I'm going to tiptoe in lightly. > I cannot believe you said this> "but if I have a reason to believe its the Police they'll come into my house to find me on the groud with my hands stretched out so that there is no mix up." So I guess(shakes head) when you're dead on the floor from a home invasion or mistaken intell by the or just bad cops it's all good. Gimme a break man. I'm not laying down for anybody.(cept maybe some hot looking babe) I'll take my chances >shakes head and walks away from thread

[masterrig 1]

Quote

Quote

I'd have to agree with you! Someone brought-up the subject of 'intel'. When the intel is not good, we tend to hear of the wrong doors getting kicked-in. The wrong doors will get kicked-in especially, when the bad guys give an incorrect address when booked for an offense. I know that because, that's what one of my ex neighbors did. We informed the cops, he was giving the wrong address and he was subsequently arrested on several drug charges.

The problem is not so much whether intel is good or bad, we nothing's perfect and mistakes will be made. There's always the chance that the 20 second rule will come to your door. But even that, in and of itself, isn't the problem. The real problem is that the 20 second rule allows people to impersonate the police and thereby gain entry to your house. If the police had to slip a warrant under the door to get in, you would never be faced with not knowing whether you're resisting the police or simply defending your home. That's why the 20 second rule is bad law, in spite of its tactical advantages in certain situations.

_____________________________________

If, someone is going to impersonate a police officer, it's not necessarily a home invasion situation. A short while back, we had a mother-son 'team' working the highways in the area. They had an old police car and were pulling people over, flashing phony badges and robbing them. I don't care how you slice it. A law gets made... someone is going to find a way to get around it or flat, break it. Any of the home invasions in our area, the 'gangers' just kicked-in the doors, flashing guns and catching folks off-guard. Seems like, if the crooks identified themselves as cops, they're just tacking-on another charge against them. I'm not saying it doesn't happen. Then too, crooks are mostly idiots to begin with.


Chuck

[GQ_jumper 4]

Cops who are wired up on a hair trigger to kill anything that even APPEARS to be a threat to them is not what this country is supposed to be about.

Quote

Someone shooting at you isn't someone who APPEARS to be a threat, they have proven themselves to be a threat to you and your teammates lives and their fate is their own fault. I don't disagree that it sucks that the cops kicked down the door in the first place, but do we even know if these were the officers who conducted the investigation from beginning to end? Maybe they were just tasked with serving a warrant and in that case had no idea what they were going into. And even if the men knew the old lady was there, from what I understand they had reason to believe there was someone or something happening in there that was a little more dangerous than an elderly woman. And let us not forget that a little old lady opened fire first. I have personally kicked in a few doors with innocent people on the other side, sometimes you are led to the wrong place, I have never shot anybody in any of these houses but no matter how innocent these people were if any of them had ever taken a shot at me their innocence would have gone out the window. It doesn't matter if you are doing it in self-defense once you take that shot the other person now has the same right to self-defense as you do and it comes down to who's the better shot.

History does not long entrust the care of freedom to the weak or the timid.
--Dwight D. Eisenhower

• Quote

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

Someone shooting at you isn't someone who APPEARS to be a threat, they have proven themselves to be a threat to you and your teammates lives and their fate is their own fault. I don't disagree that it sucks that the cops kicked down the door in the first place, but do we even know if these were the officers who conducted the investigation from beginning to end? Maybe they were just tasked with serving a warrant and in that case had no idea what they were going into. And even if the men knew the old lady was there, from what I understand they had reason to believe there was someone or something happening in there that was a little more dangerous than an elderly woman. And let us not forget that a little old lady opened fire first. I have personally kicked in a few doors with innocent people on the other side, sometimes you are led to the wrong place, I have never shot anybody in any of these houses but no matter how innocent these people were if any of them had ever taken a shot at me their innocence would have gone out the window. It doesn't matter if you are doing it in self-defense once you take that shot the other person now has the same right to self-defense as you do and it comes down to who's the better shot.

Then the same logic should apply to criminals shooting police officers. Once a cop pulls a gun, any shooting on the part of the criminal should be considered self-defense.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!