Six Muslim Clerics Removed from USAir Flight for Praying

[kallend 1,661]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Here

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Butters 0]

There is a fine line between using your rights and abusing your rights. I don't believe we should ever take away our rights or others rights. We should learn how to use them appropriately and so should others though.

Just because you can do almost anything at anytime doesn't mean you should do almost anything at anytime.

I personally don't think there is ever a good time to stand up on an airplane and begin praying outload (any religion) in a foriegn language. Given the time and place of the current event and the similarities to the recent historical event I think it was a particulary bad time and place to do such.

"That looks dangerous." Leopold Stotch

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Here

Thanks. Still doesn't explain the fine line between Establishment and Restriction though does it?

Some Court rulings:

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Some recent court decisions:

1984 - Pawtucket, RI: (Lynch v. Donnelly) The court ruled that the city did not violate the separation of church and state when it included a nativity scene among a number of other decorations (plastic reindeer, candy canes, a wishing well, a Jewish menorah) displayed in a public park.

1989 - Pittsburgh PA: (Allegheny County v. ACLU Greater Pittsburgh Chapter) The court prohibited the display of a nativity scene which stood alone inside a county courthouse.

1997 - Township of Wall, NJ: The U.S. Supreme Court let a ruling by the Third Circuit Court of Appeals stand. They decided that a display showing a Jewish menorah and a Christian nativity scene was unconstitutional. Township officials later converted the exhibition into a cultural display by adding a Santa Claus, reindeer and Frosty the Snowman. 3

1998 - Syracuse NY: The court allowed the city to retain its nativity scene in a public park along with a number of other decorations - a menorah and non-religious symbols.

1999 - Jersey City, NJ: The Third Circuit Court of Appeals found that a religious display with a menorah, manger scene and Christmas tree was unconstitutional. The religious display was later modified by adding symbols of Kwanzaa -- a traditional African celebration -- Santa Claus, Frosty the Snowman, a sleigh, and a sign stating that the purpose for the display was to celebrate "cultural and ethnic diversity." It was found to be constitutional.

2005: The "three reindeer rule:" The Alliance Defense Fund (ADF), a fundamentalist Christian legal group, refered to "Three Reindeer Rule." It states that in order to convert an unconstitutional religious display into a constitutional cultural display, a municipality must include a certain of secular objects or symbols in close enough proximity. They state: "Although the overall display must not convey a message endorsing a particular religion's view, Christmas displays are not banned as some people believe. Simply put, the courts ask, 'Is the municipality celebrating the holiday or promoting religion'?"

2005: San Diego, CA: Sixteen years of conflict came to an end on 2005-MAR-8, when San Diego City Council voted 5 to 3 to reject a plan to retain a 45-foot cross which has stood at the top of Mount Soledad in La Jolla, CA. since 1954. A federal judge has repeatedly ordered that the cross, which had been built on land owned by the city, be removed. The city had tried unsuccessfully on a number of occasions to sell the land to some person or group. Two Republican representatives, Randy Cunningham and Duncan Hunter, inserted an amendment to a federal spending bill in 2003 which would have had the land taken over by the National Park Service. But City Attorney Michael Aguirre issued a legal opinion that donating the land to the federal government for a religious purpose would be a violation of both California's constitution and the federal constitution. Several local churches have offered to have the cross relocated to their property. One is located within 1000 feet of the cross' present location.

[kallend 1,661]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Here

Thanks. Still doesn't explain the fine line between Establishment and Restriction though does it?

Well, this non-lawyer reckons that opening a public place to any and all religions on a short term basis to celebrate their festivals is probably OK, but a permanent display of only one religion's stuff and excluding others is clearly promoting that religion.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[billvon 2,454]

>If I go down to the local library or courthouse and put up a manger scene,
>it will be taken down.

Correct. If you set up a liquor still, smoothie stand or storage shed, it would get taken down too.

> If I apply for a permit to put it back up, I will be denied.

Nope. There are a great many municipalities where several religious depictions (a manger, a menorah, an offering to Vishnu, whatever) can be seen around the holidays. There's one in my home town in NY. In general, US courts have allowed either all religions or none to be displayed on public property, which makes perfect sense.

>I don't know how you can possibly say the govt. doesn't restrict the
>free expression of religion.

Dude, there's a federally owned and funded 40 foot tall cross on a mountain here. Your claims that the government supresses religion are pretty funny to anyone from around here.

>Same with guns.

If only we could get a comment about Clinton in here, we'd have the coveted Speaker's Corner Trifecta.

>Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down
>in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Same reason that "Obey Allah" signs would get taken down if the government put it in Maine public schools. Once again let me refer you to a rather simple statement:

The government shall make NO LAW respecting an establishment of religion.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Nope. There are a great many municipalities where several religious depictions (a manger, a menorah, an offering to Vishnu, whatever) can be seen around the holidays. There's one in my home town in NY. In general, US courts have allowed either all religions or none to be displayed on public property, which makes perfect sense.

and there are some who have banned them entirely.

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Dude, there's a federally owned and funded 40 foot tall cross on a mountain here. Your claims that the government supresses religion are pretty funny to anyone from around here.

See my post above. Is it still there?

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[billvon 2,454]

>and there are some who have banned them entirely.

While I think that's up to each township, I disagree with that approach. Fortunately, many _do_ allow it.

>See my post above. Is it still there?

Yep. Bush used eminent domain to annex it. It now belongs to the federal government; they maintain it.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>and there are some who have banned them entirely.

While I think that's up to each township, I disagree with that approach. Fortunately, many _do_ allow it.

>See my post above. Is it still there?

Yep. Bush used eminent domain to annex it. It now belongs to the federal government; they maintain it.

That's wrong on 2 levels. E.D. and Govt. ownership and/or display of religious symbols.

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[kallend 1,661]

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>and there are some who have banned them entirely.

While I think that's up to each township, I disagree with that approach. Fortunately, many _do_ allow it.

>See my post above. Is it still there?

Yep. Bush used eminent domain to annex it. It now belongs to the federal government; they maintain it.

That's wrong on 2 levels. E.D. and Govt. ownership and/or display of religious symbols.

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www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060814-115849-6832r.htm

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[ExAFO 0]

Any disruption/loud behavior on a flight is ill-advised. This is the Religion Card, akin to the Race Card.

But the Imams are attention whoring it, and will demand a settlement from the airlines.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>and there are some who have banned them entirely.

While I think that's up to each township, I disagree with that approach. Fortunately, many _do_ allow it.

>See my post above. Is it still there?

Yep. Bush used eminent domain to annex it. It now belongs to the federal government; they maintain it.

That's wrong on 2 levels. E.D. and Govt. ownership and/or display of religious symbols.

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www.washingtontimes.com/national/20060814-115849-6832r.htm

Getting too off topic here but this is not a case where I think the govt. was unjustified because the city had voted to give it to the Feds and it is being used as a Korean War Memorial. That's a lot different than seizing the land to give to a developer to build a shopping mall. All the Govt. has to do is allow any religious symbols to be displayed and I can't see why it wouldn't be legal.

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[livendive 8]

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That is not a valid comparison. A sheet and a white dunce cap is a symbol of bigotry, hate, and ill will, especially toward blacks

And standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude.

No, it's not. If you think it is, that says something much worse about you than it does about them.

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[billvon 2,454]

>All the Govt. has to do is allow any religious symbols to be displayed
>and I can't see why it wouldn't be legal.

I agree. Hold an auction; auction the land off and allow any religious/secular group who wants it to buy it. Then let them do whatever they want with it.

[livendive 8]

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don't know where you're from, but I'm from the US. We are a country of immigrants, a blending of cultures such that the sum is greater than the parts. We were founded, in part, on the principle that people should be free to practice the religion of their choosing, including none, and the government should not intrude on their choices in this regard

It seems that there is a bit of a conflict here. I thought that we were a melting pot, a place where different metals are put together to make a strong alloy, not something that separates and falls apart at the first blow of the hammer, because that is where we are headed. That means one direction, one flag, one purpose. That is the true freedom of all of mankind. If your religion demands that I submit to you, then, you need to leave.

I'm not sure where to begin to respond to this, so I guess I'll just go with your first sentence. What conflict does the rest of your post have with mine? It seems to me that our two posts above are in near perfect agreement, and neither of the above paragraphs agree with your other opinions expressed in this thread. Personally, I don't think that everyone needs to agree on one direction, else elections would be pointless, but the rest of your quote above rings pretty true. And if you demand that these Muslims submit to you and not pray in public, doesn't that mean you should be checking out international property prices?

Blues,
Dave

"I AM A PROFESSIONAL EXTREME ATHLETE!"
(drink Mountain Dew)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>All the Govt. has to do is allow any religious symbols to be displayed
>and I can't see why it wouldn't be legal.

I agree. Hold an auction; auction the land off and allow any religious/secular group who wants it to buy it. Then let them do whatever they want with it.

Huh?? I never said anything about auctioning off the land. I would think as green as you are that you would prefer to have the land used as a War Memorial Park than used for high rise condos or a shopping mall.

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[billvon 2,454]

>I would think as green as you are that you would prefer to have the land
>used as a War Memorial Park than used for high rise condos or a shopping
>mall.

I would indeed. But the government cannot legislate a preference to one religious group over another (or even over a secular group.) An auction is a fair way to decide who gets it. A random drawing would be another, I suppose.

If it is condos that's the worry, just zone the area "no condos." (Do this before the auction, of course, so bidders are not blindsided later.)

[Gravitymaster 0]

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>I would think as green as you are that you would prefer to have the land
>used as a War Memorial Park than used for high rise condos or a shopping
>mall.

I would indeed. But the government cannot legislate a preference to one religious group over another (or even over a secular group.) An auction is a fair way to decide who gets it. A random drawing would be another, I suppose.

If it is condos that's the worry, just zone the area "no condos." (Do this before the auction, of course, so bidders are not blindsided later.)

Why not just allow any religious symbols to be displayed and leave it as a memorial park. Seems like a better less complicated way to resolve the issue and make sure it isn't turned into a mall.

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[freethefly 6]

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That is not a valid comparison. A sheet and a white dunce cap is a symbol of bigotry, hate, and ill will, especially toward blacks

And standing up on an airplane, and praying to Allah as a group, is an in your face, " fuck you, America" attitude.

Let's see now, since you and some others have the story wrong let us review.


6 Imams Removed From Twin Cities Flight

Nov 21, 9:48 PM (ET)

By MARTIGA LOHN
MINNEAPOLIS (AP) - Six Muslim clerics removed from a US Airways flight said Tuesday they were victims of discrimination and called for a boycott of the airline.

The imams were removed from the flight to Phoenix on Monday night after three of them said their normal evening prayers in the terminal in Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport before boarding(Not praying on the plane), said Omar Shahin, president of the North American Imams Federation. They were among the 150 imams who attended a federation meeting in Minneapolis.

"The police came and take us off the plane in front of all the passengers in a very humiliated way," said Shahin. "I never felt bad in my life like yesterday. It was the worst moment in my life when I see six imams, six leaders in this community, humiliated."

They said they were questioned by police and the FBI, detained in a holding cell with loud music and occasionally surrounded by police dogs.

The Department of Homeland Security's Office for Civil Rights and Civil Liberties said in a letter Tuesday it had opened an investigation.

US Airways Group Inc. (LCC) issued a statement saying it was interviewing crew members and ground workers to find out more about what happened.

"We are always concerned when passengers are inconvenienced and especially concerned when a situation occurs that causes customers to feel their dignity was compromised. We do not tolerate discrimination of any kind," the airline said.

An airport police report said the flight's captain had already decided he wanted the men off the plane after the passenger passed a flight attendant a note pointing out "Arabic men."
(It appears that they were thrown off because they were Arabic and that the captian acted out of prejudiced)

Witnesses said the men prayed in the terminal and made critical comments about the Iraq war, according to the police report, and a US Airways manager said three of the men had only one-way tickets and no checked baggage.
(So, is it a crime to be critical of an illegal war? Is it a crime to have oneway tickets when you are going home? Is it a crime to not have checked baggage? I guess, I am guilty of all of these crimes.)

An airport police officer and a federal air marshal agreed that the combination of circumstances was suspicious, and eventually asked the men to leave the airplane, the police report said.
(What exactly was suspicious? That they were doing what thousands do each day or that they were doing it while being Arabic?)

"There were a number of things that gave the flight crew pause," Airport spokesman Patrick Hogan said. It wasn't immediately possible to verify whether the passengers who reported suspicious activity witnessed it themselves.
(A number of things? Three of them prayed. They were heading home, hence the one way tickets. They didn't check their baggage. They are critical of an illegal war. And, one person passed a note pointing out Arabic men. If they were white Americans instead of Arabic Americans would their activities be viewed as suspicous? No. This reeks of racial profiling)

But Shahin and Marwan Sadeddin, another of the imams, strongly denied doing anything out of the ordinary. They entered the aircraft individually, except for Sadeddin, who is blind and needed a guide, Shahin said. Once on the plane, the six did not sit together, he said.

Shahin said no one asked the six to leave until police arrived, when the group complied.
(Again, exactly what did they do wrong?)

The other passengers on the flight, which was carrying 141 passengers and five crew members, were re-screened for boarding. The plane took off about three hours after the men were removed.

On Tuesday, US Airways refused to honor the group's tickets or allow them to buy new ones, saying their payment for Monday's flight had been refunded.
(They did absolutely nothing wrong and still USair treated them as if they were criminals. Shame on USair.)

Shahin eventually booked flights on Northwest Airlines - to Phoenix for five of the imams from the Phoenix-Tempe area and to Los Angeles for the sixth, who is from Bakersfield, Calif.
(Well, imagine that, nothing happened, no buildings were crashed into and everyone went home. Hats off to Northwest Air for doing the right thing.)

Furious and travel-weary, the five Muslim scholars were greeted in Phoenix's Sky Harbor International Airport terminal to chants of "Allah-U Akbar" (God is great) from family and friends.
(Surprising that another note wasn't passed and that the National Guard wasn't called in. Oops, I forgot that the NG is a bit busy these days fighting an illegal war in Iraq.)

US Airways spokeswoman Andrea Rader, who came to the airport to see the scholars, said she didn't have much information about what happened in Minneapolis and wasn't prepared to apologize.
(Again, shame on USair.)

"I can't say that at this point," Rader said. "We want to talk to our employees. We want to talk to these customers and let them know we want to do the right thing."
(They passed on the chance to do the right thing and back peddlers just suck.)

Shahin said his days of praying in airports may be over. "It's terrible, unfortunately," he said. "In America we have no freedom to practice our faith, to do our faith."
(It is a shame that in a country that spouts freedom of religion that it only applies to a few religions and that others feel persecuted for their beliefs. So much for the Bill of Rights as it is quickly being chipped away.)

Shahin expressed frustration that - despite extensive efforts by him and other Muslim leaders since even before the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks - so many Americans know so little about Islam, which requires prayer five times a day.
(Ignorance cultivates fear and some would rather thrive on fear than on knowledge.)

Nihad Awad, executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations, said he hoped the incident would "raise awareness among the general public and the airline industry that praying as a Muslim and flying as a Muslim should not trigger any fear and any prejudice."
(We can only pray that it does, amen.)

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Associated Press writers Natasha T. Metzler in Washington and Chris Kahn in Phoenix contributed to this report.

"...And once you're gone, you can't come back
When you're out of the blue and into the black."
Neil Young

[akarunway 1]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Explain why " In God We Trust " is still on my money?

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Explain why " In God We Trust " is still on my money?

I've gone all plastic money. Mine just says "Rewards Card."

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[akarunway 1]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Explain why " In God We Trust " is still on my money?

I've gone all plastic money. Mine just says "Rewards Card."

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Nice. The govt. (and big corps) gets to track your every move. Me. I prefer CASH

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[kallend 1,661]

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Explain why the 10 Commandments were ordered taken down in the Courthouse a few years ago.

Explain why " In God We Trust " is still on my money?

I've gone all plastic money. Mine just says "Rewards Card."

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Nice. The govt. (and big corps) gets to track your every move. Me. I prefer CASH

Why? What have you done?

"If you've done nothing wrong, you have nothing to fear" - J. Stalin (or was it H. Himmler?)

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Frenchy68 0]

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That means one direction, one flag, one purpose. That is the true freedom of all of mankind.

Uh? That's a pretty strong statement, which as stated I do not grasp. Can you elaborate?

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Andy9o8 0]

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I personally don't think there is ever a good time to stand up on an airplane and begin praying outload (any religion) in a foriegn language.

Hm. Suppose: An elderly lady on a US flight who has a fear of flying asks the Catholic priest sitting in front of her to say a prayer to calm her nerves. The priest obliges, stands up to face the lady and begins: In nomine patri, et filii, et spiritu sancti.

I'm willing to bet he'd be left alone.

[Andy9o8 0]

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That means one direction, one flag, one purpose. That is the true freedom of all of mankind.

Uh? That's a pretty strong statement, which as stated I do not grasp. Can you elaborate?

Consider Orwell's 1984. That's what it means.