STOP THE GUNS

[SkyDekker 1,152]

Quote

The statistics that show a reduction in violent crime have been shown over and over ... and all that can be said is "but America *still* has more crime than some European countries, so you must be lying!"

America isn't known to be a polite society. It is known to be an armed society. How does that fit in the with the "an armed society is a polite society" mantra. That was my original question. If you think America is a very polite society, then we'll just end the discussion here.

[mnealtx 0]

The premise behind the saying is that you're not going to assault people if you don't know whether or not they have the means to hurt you.

You know, sort of like the concept of not going up and hassling the 250lb, 6'6" boxer sitting on a barstool.

The same theory works with the gun debate - a crook isn't going to rob someone that may be armed. That's been proven by crime stats in general, as well as by prison interviews with convicted felons.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[SkyDekker 1,152]

Quote

That's been proven by crime stats in general, as well as by prison interviews with convicted felons.

So, all these convicted felons knew their victims did not have firearms prior to committing their crime?

[Scoop 0]

.... and disproved by people who shoot or stab others THEN take their money when they rob them. They don't bother with threatening people because that gives someone the opportunity to defend themselves.

EDIT: Are all these conviceted felons also from the same polite society thats crime free?

[mnealtx 0]

Tell you what, sport - find the stats on that line of crap and we'll discuss it.

That's a quick trip to a gurney and a special IV, if convicted.

As the 'polite society' crack... I've not seen poeple getting 'glassed' (I believe that the correct term, is it not?) on a regular basis in Stateside bars... fistfights, sure.. maybe even a knock on the head with a pool cue...but that's about it. But I've forgotten... they evidently don't NEED the 'manners' lessons in Merry Olde, do they... since there's no crime now that those nasty old GUNS are gone.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Scoop 0]

Just remember that people never have carried hanguns on them in this country. So the guns being gone doesn't mean they were taken off them. No-one has ever had a firearm legally in their posession for self defence. You do realise that right?

I'd be interested to know how some of you obvioussly very pro gun people felt if you've ever stayed in the UK for a while. Did you feel intimidated or scared?

[mnealtx 0]

Quote

I'd be interested to know how some of you obvioussly very pro gun people felt if you've ever stayed in the UK for a while. Did you feel intimidated or scared?

Not been to the UK, but I've not felt particularly threatened anyplace I've gone to yet. It's part of that "polite society" thing - I don't go around looking for fights and see defending myself physically as a last resort.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kbordson 8]

Quote

If you think America is a very polite society, then we'll just end the discussion here.

This is getting off the original topic of this thread.... but I really wanted to respond to this.

Midwest America is MUCH different than the East Coast big cities. I grew up in Madison, WI... small town mentality in the farming communities. VERY POLITE and NICE. Don't talk back to neighbors, smile and nod, be courteous.

I don't know where you've been in America or why you have such a view of our culture... but there are many areas where, even with the "evil" 2nd amendment, it's a GREAT place to live.

(and personally... I own a few guns and consider myself rather polite in most situations. ... except I can be snotty at times)

[rhys 0]

Great video,

Guns (especially hand guns), my opinion!

I will repeat myself. The contitution was written for and by Gun toting rednecks!

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[SkyDekker 1,152]

Quote

This is getting off the original topic of this thread.... but I really wanted to respond to this.

Midwest America is MUCH different than the East Coast big cities. I grew up in Madison, WI... small town mentality in the farming communities. VERY POLITE and NICE. Don't talk back to neighbors, smile and nod, be courteous.

I don't know where you've been in America or why you have such a view of our culture... but there are many areas where, even with the "evil" 2nd amendment, it's a GREAT place to live.

(and personally... I own a few guns and consider myself rather polite in most situations. ... except I can be snotty at times)

Of course there are great areas to the US and not so great areas in the US. Not contesting that at all.

The statement I responded to was:

An armed society is a polite society.

I think you would agree with me that it a pretty general statement. It wasn't an armed small town Madison, WI society is a polite society.

When you talk to people outside of the US who have either visited the US or who have come across Americans in their own environment what their perception is of Americans, politeness tends not to be the highest on the list of responses.

Hence, I was trying to ask people to provide me with a real life practical living society that is known to carry arms and is considered in the world to be polite. Something to actually validate the statement, other than: "in theory it should work". I excluded Switzerland from the list, I know many have a rifle in their house, but in my very frequent trips to that country, I ahve never seen anybody carry that rifle around with them.

In the end I said, that if the only response is that they consider the US to be a polite society as a whole, I will have to respectfully disagree, but it would end the discussion, since that is what it is based on.

[kbordson 8]

Quote

Of course there are great areas to the US and not so great areas in the US. Not contesting that at all.

The statement I responded to was:

An armed society is a polite society.

I think you would agree with me that it a pretty general statement. It wasn't an armed small town Madison, WI society is a polite society.

Agreed. Generalities don't work with a country as large and diverse as the US. Some areas of the armed nation might be polite.... inner city Chicago probably isn't one of them

When you talk to people outside of the US who have either visited the US or who have come across Americans in their own environment what their perception is of Americans, politeness tends not to be the highest on the list of responses.

I'm sorry about this. Some Americans can be obnoxious... but then again, that goes for all peoples.... maybe not to the degree of the "Ugly American" reputation... but .... I wish more acted more respectful of other cultures

Hence, I was trying to ask people to provide me with a real life practical living society that is known to carry arms and is considered in the world to be polite. Something to actually validate the statement, other than: "in theory it should work". I excluded Switzerland from the list, I know many have a rifle in their house, but in my very frequent trips to that country, I ahve never seen anybody carry that rifle around with them.

In the end I said, that if the only response is that they consider the US to be a polite society as a whole, I will have to respectfully disagree, but it would end the discussion, since that is what it is based on.

As a whole I agree, with you.... but that doesn't mean that I can't defend the America that I grew up knowing. I grew up hunting with my dad, shooting in competitions, owning firearms... and being polite. But as a whole.... probably doesn't stand. You have to look at the community, not the gun ownership.

Thus... back to the video.... THAT community was standing up and becoming more responsible for their neighborhood.... whether it is armed or not.

[rhys 0]

Quote

Great video,

Guns (especially hand guns), ARE STUPID my opinion!

I will repeat myself. The conStitution was written for and by Gun toting rednecks!

Fixed it, Shit I must have been tired,

How long are you allowerd to edit the posts for?

"When the power of love overcomes the love of power, then the world will see peace." - 'Jimi' Hendrix

[going4alob 0]

I have travelled the world and I visit the USA (east and west coasts) about twice a month. I can honestly say that I think American's are generally very polite probably more so than Brits, and certainly other European countries I have been to. I don't believe there is any relationship between being able to carry a gun and a polite society, it's more likely to do with how you've been brought up.

I don't believe that the gun culture that I see in the USA would ever work or be applicable in the UK, and would oppose the loosening of restrictions in the UK. Likewise I really don't think that UK restrictions would ever work in the USA. In terms of being armed and the effects on crime rates I think that there is way to much variation in the way crime is defined and data collated from country to country to make any good comparisons. There is one unarguable point about having less restricted gun laws, which is that the incidence of accidential deaths particularly with young children increases as more of the population are armed. Unfortunately not every gun holder the high sense of responsibility that is required to hold a gun, coupled with the fact that some children even though they are taught not to mess with guns will on occasion play with them. After all that has been said on SC I really doubt being able to have a gun compared to not having a gun would really affect crime rates in any country.

[gringito 0]

Quote

I will repeat myself. The contitution was written for and by Gun toting rednecks!

Man, horse's asses are abundant in Kiwi country! By the way, if you are to bastardize our Constitution you should at least know that it starts with a capital C. Its a proper noun you twit!

Green Grass and High Tides under Blue Skies

[SkyDekker 1,152]

Quote

I don't believe there is any relationship between being able to carry a gun and a polite society, it's more likely to do with how you've been brought up.

Couldn't agree with you more. I don't see a relationship between the two either.

[Andy9o8 0]

Quote

I will repeat myself. The contitution was written for and by Gun toting rednecks!

Actually, the original US Constitution, as well as its first 10 Amendments (including the 2nd Amendment - the right to keep and bear arms to assure a well-regulated militia) was written mainly by wealthy, well-educated aristocrats and/or business-owners.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

your crime rates are still very high compared to other western civilizations. Hence, I don't agree with the statement my first post was about, that an armed society is a polite society...

You can't compare such vastly different cultures and suggest that guns are the only difference that account for variations in crime rates. That's invalid.

The way to compare is within the same country, over time, when gun laws change.

Here in the U.S. there has been a trend over the last 15 years for states to pass laws allowing concealed handgun carry. Only about six states still ban this practice, while about 44 do allow it. So there are now hundreds of thousands of people walking around with guns in America.

Now, according to your belief that "more guns equals more crime", this should have made America more dangerous.

However, at the same time the above was occuring, crime rates have plummeted in America, to a 30-year low, not seen since the 1970's.

So that's the exact opposite of what you say should happen, and proves you wrong.

It's debateable whether or not the presence of armed citizens is partially responsible for that crime drop. But the one thing that can be said unequivocally, is that the presence of armed citizens did NOT make things worse. And that's why not a single state that has passed such laws has subsequently bothered to revoke them - because there have been no bad effects from them.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

[JohnRich 4]

Quote

There is one unarguable point about having less restricted gun laws, which is that the incidence of accidential deaths particularly with young children increases as more of the population are armed.

Oh, that's very arguable. You're wrong.

Guns are very durable items: they last for hundreds of years, and are passed from generation to generation. And new ones are being sold too. So there are now more guns than ever in America, with about 50% of the population owning them.

And at the same time, child accidental deaths from guns has dropped every year since such statistics have been recorded, and are at an all time low.

There is no direct correlation between the number of guns and the number of child gun deaths. At the same time as more guns are being purchased, there is also gun safety education and product improvements taking place to reduce the number of accidents. Thus, the trends diverge in opposite directions.

[SkyDekker 1,152]

Quote

You can't compare such vastly different cultures and suggest that guns are the only difference that account for variations in crime rates. That's invalid.

The way to compare is within the same country, over time, when gun laws change.

Here in the U.S. there has been a trend over the last 15 years for states to pass laws allowing concealed handgun carry. Only about six states still ban this practice, while about 44 do allow it. So there are now hundreds of thousands of people walking around with guns in America.

Now, according to your belief that "more guns equals more crime", this should have made America more dangerous.

However, at the same time the above was occuring, crime rates have plummeted in America, to a 30-year low, not seen since the 1970's.

So that's the exact opposite of what you say should happen, and proves you wrong.

It's debateable whether or not the presence of armed citizens is partially responsible for that crime drop. But the one thing that can be said unequivocally, is that the presence of armed citizens did NOT make things worse. And that's why not a single state that has passed such laws has subsequently bothered to revoke them - because there have been no bad effects from them.

Put that in your pipe and smoke it.

So, where exactly in this thread did I say that more guns equal more crime?

In many ways I agree with what you are saying. Though it should also be noted that the economy may have a large part to play in this too.

With your explanation the sentence should be that:

A sub-culture in a larger culture may become politer then another similar sub-culture within the same main culture if said sub-culture is armed and no other vaiables change significantly in that same time frame.

This is certainly much different from the completely generalized and affirmative statement "An armed society is a polite society". Which also means that you, like me, disagree with that generalized statement. Which was the intention of my original post.

I am not quite sure wat you have been smoking in your pipe, drawing as many conclusions and assumptions.

[jcd11235 0]

Quote

However, at the same time the above was occuring, crime rates have plummeted in America, to a 30-year low, not seen since the 1970's.

Some might argue that Roe v Wade contributed to that drop in crime rate. They might even have substantial statistical evidence to support their assertion. Read Freakonomics.

Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials!

[going4alob 0]

Oh, that's very arguable. You're wrong.

Guns are very durable items: they last for hundreds of years, and are passed from generation to generation. And new ones are being sold too. So there are now more guns than ever in America, with about 50% of the population owning them.

And at the same time, child accidental deaths from guns has dropped every year since such statistics have been recorded, and are at an all time low.

There is no direct correlation between the number of guns and the number of child gun deaths. At the same time as more guns are being purchased, there is also gun safety education and product improvements taking place to reduce the number of accidents. Thus, the trends diverge in opposite directions.

[kbordson 8]

It's not the guns that are dangerous....

Those scopes BITE! (stupid black powder types kick.... shoulda just stuck with the tommy.)

edit: and to make matters worse.. none of the brave strong men there would use the dermabond or suture it at the range... so went and talked to one of my partners... HE wouldn't suture it (sure he can fix an episiotomy... but not a stitch or two on my face... arguing about seeing the bone.... ) but he was nice and introduced me to the ER doc that was nice enough to put 9 stitches (one deep, and 8 superficial).

[mnealtx 0]

Ouch, Doc!!! Don't ya know ya ain't 'sposed to DO that???

*afterthought* I bet you check the eye relief a bit more closely next time!!

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[wuffo2 0]

Quote

It's not the guns that are dangerous....

Those scopes BITE! (stupid black powder types kick.... shoulda just stuck with the tommy.)

edit: and to make matters worse.. none of the brave strong men there would use the dermabond or suture it at the range... so went and talked to one of my partners... HE wouldn't suture it (sure he can fix an episiotomy... but not a stitch or two on my face... arguing about seeing the bone.... ) but he was nice and introduced me to the ER doc that was nice enough to put 9 stitches (one deep, and 8 superficial).

Battle scars/wounds are good. They build character

[warpedskydiver 0]

Quote

Would have been better if at the end he ran out and got slotted by CO19.

Would that have been any differant than being slotted by 14CO?