Spain's Policy on Runway Models - Good or Bad

[lawrocket 3]

I happened upon this story on NPR, wherein a small furor has arisen in the fashion world because Spain has instituted a policy wherein some models are being banned from its top fashion show on the basis that they are too skinny.

The organizers enacted the policy due to government pressure, and the ban affects models with a Body Mass Index (BMI) of 18 or lower. This means that a female model of 5'9" would have to weigh more than 123 pounds. A female of 5'3" would have to weigh 102 pounds or more.

I personally find it disgusting and despicable that so many of these models are absolute waifs as the effect of female self-image from an early age has to be tremendous. I think this policy is a step in the right direction, but I'm wondering if others think the same thing.

However, I myself have issues with the standards of the BMI. I'm 33 years old, 6'1" and weigh 190 pounds. I am therefore overweight by American CDC standards. I could weigh 137 pounds and be considered underweight - a weight that seems pretty low. I got down to 165 when I was 21, and looked emaciated.

Here is a BMI calculator for your own reference. It shows pretty well just how doggone skinny they will allow acceptable to be.

Edited to add: it was a tough call to post this in Women Only, Bonfire, or Speaker's Corner. But I chose Bonfire. I understand the cross-over issue...

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[Nightingale 0]

I think it's a good idea. It's annoying to see runway clothes that nobody except models and actresses can actually wear. Nothing wrong with having a fashion show where you show what the fashion will look like on real people. Maybe it'll get designers to stop designing women's clothing that only fits women who look like little boys.

[Lindercles 0]

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The organizers enacted the policy due to government pressure

This statement is the key. At the risk of pushing this into SC, provided that the ultimate decision was made by the show organizers I have no problem with it. It's their show, they can do what they want.

However, despite the fact that I agree with the intent, I would have a problem with the government themselves enacting such a ban on the that basis. It reeks of discrimination.

The argument could certainly be made that the current state of fashion is discriminatory as well, but the difference is the decisions are made by the people involved, not by the government.

But then again I really don't know anything about how Spanish government works, so I could be way off.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Yeah, the BMI thing is grossly inadequate because it only looks at height and weight, without taking into account the frame or % body fat.

I don't see why the fashion industry is obsessed with stick-figure women.

Men usually don't find super-skinny women attractive. At least not straight men.

And that makes me wonder: Hmmm, I wonder what sort of men would think women look more attractive if they looked more like 18-year-old boys? The sort of men who tend to go for careers in the fashion industry, apparently.

I agreee with the policy, but I'm a little bothered by the fact that it has been implemented by coercion from the government.

Speed Racer
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[skysmurf2 0]

I think its a great idea - but it will have little effect overall. To appreciate the visuals of clothes requires a 2D perspective - which is why actresses and models are 'lovingly' reffered to as having a coat hanger body. However, that is only because it makes it easier for designers. Designing beautiful (and by that I do not mean practical - but couture which is essentially art in a cloth medium) clothes for 'real' body types is much harder.

In a world where Nicole Richie is rewarded for being unhealthily skinny its a nice concept to think that the powers many young girls (and more mature women) revere (fashion and celebrity)- are taking a stand. BUT the Spanish fashion scene is not really a power and more likely than not - this is just a device to attract more attention - a few years ago at a Spanish runway show - a designer used 'real' women mixed in models to showcase the season. It worked as far as getting attention - it failed spectacularly as a stance against unhealthy body images.

I don't support being unhealthily skinny (I have curves and I like them) but clothes are displayed to a better advantage on skinnier bodies - which is what models are paid (too much) to do - to be living canvasses - only most young girls do not know that and aspire to anorexia. Models don't feel good under their clothes and no one seems to think the emaciated bodies in National Geographic are attractive - but with the right lighting, makeup, airbrushing, and starvation - models appear to look hot (in spite of being emaciated bodies). That is all the fashion industry cares about and that is why it is unlikely to change - couture unfortunately looks best on a hanger. Those that wear and design couture won't really change - although hopefully I will be proved wrong someday.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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- models appear to look hot (in spite of being emaciated bodies).

maybe to other women & to gay men, but speaking from a straight man's perspective, we prefer some curves.


But who the hell would ask a straight guy about fashion?

Speed Racer
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[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

It's great that someone is taking a stand against unhealthy weight loss in the industry. Some models ARE way too skinny. However, some people (models) can't help being thinner or smaller than others. It's just their natural body structure. Using a BMI as bible is not a good way to determine who is at an unhealthy weight.

Only two months ago, I found out my true weight. After a full meal and with clothes/no shoes on, I weigh in at 93.6 lbs. on one of those truly accurate scales (I'm about 91-92 without clothes), and that is considered "underweight" at my height on the BMI charts. I had always assumed that I weigh more. I am not underweight and have definite curves, so I say that the BMI charts shouldn't be the final source, when determining under or overweight bodies. Bodyframe/bone structure also has a lot to do with how much people weigh.

[Viking 0]

I'm on the upper end of normal at 24.7. 6'2.5" and 195 pounds.

and i think its a very good thing!!! I can not stand the starving smack addict look!!

I mean come on!! Our brains at the base level of human instinct tell us that its unhealthy and undesirable in a mate if she looks sick and unable to carry a child.

I much rather prefer a woman with a curvy natural figure (who give a shit if she has a little fat!) than one of those toothpick bitchs.

The fashion industry as a whole confuses the hell out of me.

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[BillyVance 34]

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I much rather prefer a woman with a curvy natural figure (who give a shit if she has a little fat!) than one of those toothpick bitches.

AMEN!!! My wife is the same size as Marilyn Monroe was at a robust size 14. Although she wants to drop about 10 more pounds to get back to her pre-pregnancy weight, I'm happy.

"Mediocre people don't like high achievers, and high achievers don't like mediocre people." - SIX TIME National Champion coach Nick Saban

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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I much rather prefer a woman with a curvy natural figure (who give a shit if she has a little fat!) than one of those toothpick bitchs.

Tell us how you really feel, Arthur!

It's true, that men love curves. That's good to know!

[shropshire 0]

1st off some of the ladies do not look healthy and could use some help.


On the other hand, their job of work is NOT to be perved at, but to display the Designers creations in the best possible light and one of the Designers on the tellie this evening said that the best size for display purposes is between 8 & 10.


.

(.)Y(.)
Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome

[skysmurf2 0]

from a straight man's perspective, we prefer some curves***

good to hear but the fashion industry reeeally doesn't care about straight men's opinions. Couture is art and that requires a canvas - 2D - thats what models are. But couture is soooooo far beyond real people's reach it is just a joke - an incredibly expensive joke! Couture lines regularly lose their backing companies millions a year - but they continue to perpetuate - because it is art. And it will cost you a hell of a lot as well - I suppose if I owned a $40000 Chanel dress that cost me $600 to dry clean I'd want to look as good as possible - and with bills that large I probably wouldn't be able to afford to eat anyways!

I totally agree BMI is not an accurate body type/fat indicator. 6"1/2 and around 195 pounds sounds good to me - not fat - as BMI does not take into account muscle mass.

[Viking 0]

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I much rather prefer a woman with a curvy natural figure (who give a shit if she has a little fat!) than one of those toothpick bitchs.

Tell us how you really feel, Arthur!

It's true, that men love curves. That's good to know!

hahaha Sorry its just something i feel strongly about. I hate what that industry does to women. Messes with there heads and makes them think that they have to be desired by men they must loose every ounce of fat b/c fat is bad. blah blah blah.

Show me a women thats in shape and has a curvy yet muscular toned body and i'll show a women that is more desired than any runway model atleast by me lol.

I swear you must have footprints on the back of your helmet - chicagoskydiver
My God has a bigger dick than your god -George Carlin

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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I totally agree BMI is not an accurate body type/fat indicator. 6"1/2 and around 195 pounds sounds good to me - not fat - as BMI does not take into account muscle mass.

I know...wth...that is a totally accceptable body weight at that height! I don't agree with those BMI charts.

[NWFlyer 2]

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1st off some of the ladies do not look healthy and could use some help.


On the other hand, their job of work is NOT to be perved at, but to display the Designers creations in the best possible light and one of the Designers on the tellie this evening said that the best size for display purposes is between 8 & 10.


.

I didn't think UK sizes were that different from US sizes, but maybe that's why your statement seems a bit off to me. I think the vast majority of runway models are probably a US size 0, 2, or 4. In fashion industry terms, "8 or 10" is considered obese.

"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke

[lawrocket 3]

Generously estimating your height at 5 feet nuthin, you've still got a BMI over 18.

I have my issues with BMI. But I also think that there is no way a woman who is 5'9" can weigh 115 pounds and soely attirbute it to bone structure or body frame. Indeed, bone structure is more of a reason for a higher weight.

If you can actually see the woman's bone structure, i.e., every rib and the clearly differentiated radius and ulna on each arm, no frame arguments come into play.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[SpeedRacer 1]

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from a straight man's perspective, we prefer some curves
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good to hear Tongue but the fashion industry reeeally doesn't care about straight men's opinions.

THIS is the part that men, such as Viking, have trouble understanding.

Men tend to have a simple, bottom-line approach to things: if a man wants to look good, it means he wants women to be attracted to him.

So we expect the corresponding thing from women. But for many women, being attractive to men is of secondary importance.

Many women have their OWN IDEA how they want to look, and they don't really care if men like it or not. And that IDEAL is the one put forth by the fashion industry: ie, be as skinny as possible.

In other words, many women would rather be skinny as hell, even if it means that men would be less attracted to them, instead of having normal curves and having men be MORE attracted to them.

It's not what men expect to be the case, because we just want women to look at us & want to f&*k us, and that's basically it.

Speed Racer
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[DJL 232]

I think it's really good that the government is involved in this. I would personally like them to ban male pattern baldness.

"I encourage all awesome dangerous behavior." - Jeffro Fincher

[skysmurf2 0]

Yes, but men are a lot easier to please when it comes to the 'am I f***able' question. I'm sure most women don't want to have a man look at them and go 'nope wouldn't do her' BUT as men are slightly easier to convince into bed. A girl simply isn't convinced she is hot by that standard alone .

The other reason why some women diet themselves into oblivion is sample sales* - want to wear pretty clothes? Then you better be a sample size (0-2; 4 is a push). (British conversion - size 4-6; 8 is a push)

Designers sell their samples for ridiculously small sums - but their sample sizes are (0s and 2s) so if you want to wear YSL for $170 as opposed to $1370 be a sample size.

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

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I didn't think UK sizes were that different from US sizes, but maybe that's why your statement seems a bit off to me. I think the vast majority of runway models are probably a US size 0, 2, or 4. In fashion industry terms, "8 or 10" is considered obese.

The size that a model wears in fashion shows is usually a TRUE size 8. I've designed high couture for high-profile lines/shows, as well as all kinds of others (for juniors, contemporary, womens, mens.) Most of the professional fit and runway models are about 5'9-5-10" (sometimes 5'8" or 5'11") and between a size 8-10. A model who is 5'9" and a true size eight is the PERFECT size...and all of our dress forms are sized to be 8. Models are NOT US size 0, 2 or 4. High couture both in the US and in Europe is true to size, and maybe considered smaller than more commercial brands. The cheaper or more commercial the brand, the bigger and less accurate the sizes become. Women don't want to walk around wearing clothing with larger sizes, so it's a trick that the more commercial labels use. High fashion designers aren't afraid to offend their customers with their sizes.

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Generously estimating your height at 5 feet nuthin, you've still got a BMI over 18.

NO, I do not have a BMI over 18. Yes, I am easily 5'0", but I eat like a horse and weigh between 91-92 lbs. About ten years ago, I used to consistently weigh 87 lbs with clothing and shoes on, and I was NOT then, nor am I now in any way underweight. It's called having smaller or bigger bone structure. Get my point?

Many models have tiny bone structure...and believe it or not, some actually have enough body fat to be healthy. Some could easily be emanciated, but check out as ok on BMI charts with their bigger bone structure due to their heavier weight. Everyone is different, and what weight is anorexic for one could be normal weight for another. My point is that models should stay healthy for them, but BMI charts and scales should be thrown out!

[VanillaSkyGirl 6]

Jerry, this BMI chart is crazy! A male friend of mine is in ridiculously incredible shape...about 6% body fat. He is 6'2" and weighs only about 165. (He eats a lot, but he is naturally thin and very athletic.) Anyway, his BMI is 21.2 (more than mine), which is crazy. I just don't get it. Shouldn't these BMI standards be different for men and for women's weight?

[lawrocket 3]

The BMI doesn't take into consideration muscle mass versus fat mass. It's one of the problems with it. Ironically, a muscular man (6'1, 245 with 6% body fat) would be as high on the BMI as I was back when I was 38 percent body fat. agree that the BMI is insane with it's findings.

No way in hell should I EVER weigh 140 pounds at my height and be considered "normal." And what about factors like age, etc? The BMI is wrough with problems - but you can't be fat or have a lot of muscle mass and have a low BMI.

My wife is hotter than your wife.

[algboy 0]

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I think it's really good that the government is involved in this. I would personally like them to ban male pattern baldness.

DING! DING!DING!! We have a winner.
As long as we're getting the government involved . . . why stop at super-thin models?
I think we need to ban actresses with phony tat-tas. I mean, what is that saying to our precious little girls?
And ball players with chewing tobacco--you're OUT!
Let's not forget the aging divas with all of their plastic surgery. What kind of example does that set for middle-aged women?
Don't forget to ban those *extreme* sports enthusiasts, too. They're crazy menaces who might lead our impressionable youth astray!

[P.C. ALERT: If I'm not mistaken, there's a good chance that some/many of those runway models have eating disorders. You know . . . a disease? So the Spanish government is promoting discriminatory hiring practices. I guess runway models aren't a "protected class" yet, like the obese, mentally deficient, handicapped, people of color, certain religious groups, etc. ]

[xenaswampjumper 0]

been there and done that. I am 6'0" and weighed about 130. I have a large bone structure and didn't menstrate for over one year. It is unhealthy and unrealistic. The average size of women is about 12. I weigh about 165 now and am normal sized although I still struggle sometimes with thinking that I am "fat" after all the struggling I went through in the "business".

I think that models should be normal for their size. It should be about how you carry yourself, how you photograph and look on camera. I think that size 2 to 4 is unrealistic for the models out there at 5'10 etc. A size 8 in my opionion would be much more realistic and appealing to both sides.

till later have fun & love each other seeya mb65johnny gates....
In skydiving, the only thing that stops you is the ground..............
PMS# 472 Muff #3863 TPM#95

[ExAFO 0]

It's overkill to make it a govt mandate.

But...I will say this:

I prefer a girl with curves. Too skinny--the sex is like banging a duffle bag full of baseball bats.

Illinois needs a CCW Law. NOW.