Air Force chief: Test weapons on testy U.S. mobs

[billvon 2,400]

>I'm talking about looking back now (hindsight) and declaring that
>because a few Generals were against it then, that they somehow
>had some kind of mystical powers to predict the future (insight).

Good example. Turns out they didn't have any "mystical powers," just good insight into what would happen in Iraq after we invaded. Didn't matter since people such as these were muzzled by the Bush administration. Heck, some were actually fired for (accurately) predicting what would happen! Lesson - don't go out of your way to cripple the people whose job it is to plan for the future.

(BTW they weren't "against it" as you claim. They merely wanted to plan for what happened after we invaded. And for that they were threatened with termination.)

>2 more words for you to look up. Criticism and belittlement

The right's most effective tools, until recently.

[Gravitymaster 0]

Answered a couple of posts up.

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The right's most effective tools, until recently.

That's shortsighted. Lets not stop there, lets go back to Reagan.

[kallend 1,623]

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>Nice hindsight, though.

Kallend's been saying that since before we invaded. You may want to consult a dictionary for the definition of "hindsight."

And you might try reading what was written. I'm talking about looking back now (hindsight) and declaring that because a few Generals were against it then, that they somehow had some kind of mystical powers to predict the future (insight).

Anyone can find dissent anytime a decision is made. I's a pretty cheesey tactic to then go back and blame the person who was charged with making a decision and attack them by claiming, based on the dissent by calling them stupid.

2 more words for you to look up. Criticism and belittlement

Ahem - advice Bush ignored included the advice given by those with ACTUAL military experience on how to conduct the war and occupation, not just the advice of those who were against the war.

There are quite a few here on dz.com who back in 2003 pretty much predicted all that has come to pass, from the lies to the quagmire. YOU are NOT one of them.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[tbrown 26]

The military are not trained to be policemen and have no business policing American citizens under ANY circumstances.

The fact that a weapon may hurt or kill doesn't mean it shouldn't be used in war - where killing is the general idea, not for it's own sake, but as the most effective way of neutralizing an enemy. If we only used weapons in war that wouldn't harm American citizens, our soldiers would be marching into battle with nothing more than tazers, beanbag guns, and rubber bullets. STUPID I say, and so is this general, but ehre's nothing new about stupid crackpot generals. We've always had our share of them, along with the good ones.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[billvon 2,400]

>The military are not trained to be policemen and have no
>business policing American citizens under ANY circumstances.

I agree, and would go further and say that the military should not be used to police _anyone._ They should be used to defend the US from enemies who would attack it, and not to pacify American, Vietnamese, Iraqi or Iranian cities.

[mnealtx 0]

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The point is that Blackwater and the like are not hired to supplement troops on the battlefield, they are hired for security duty for individuals. While you may call them 'mercenaries' so that you can fantasize about them being put in front of a court, they are not.

They are in fact a corporate mecenary organization. Do a little research.
http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=10353

And then there is Zapata Engineering
http://judicial-inc.biz/Mercs_ambush_marines_supplement.htm

Seems like you need to find a few unbiased sites to do your research from... I say again: being hired to provide security and personal protection does NOT equate to being a mercenary. Mercenaries are hired to fight in the battle line.

From Labortalk.com, paraphrasing the Protocol Additional GC 1977(APGC77) of the Geneva Convention:

Art 47. Mercenaries

A mercenary is any person who:

(a) is specially recruited locally or abroad in order to fight in an armed conflict;
Security/PPD is not "fighting in armed conflicts". Security/PPD is a DEFENSIVE, not OFFENSIVE asset
(b) does, in fact, take a direct part in the hostilities;
Again, Security/PPD is NOT fighting on the battle line
(c) is motivated to take part in the hostilities essentially by the desire for private gain and, in fact, is promised, by or on behalf of a Party to the conflict, material compensation substantially in excess of that promised or paid to combatants of similar ranks and functions in the armed forces of that Party;
see above - yes they're getting paid, but not for being in the battle line
(d) is neither a national of a Party to the conflict nor a resident of territory controlled by a Party to the conflict;
US citizens in a conflict that the US is a party to = not mercs
(e) is not a member of the armed forces of a Party to the conflict; and
(f) has not been sent by a State which is not a Party to the conflict on official duty as a member of its armed forces.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Gravitymaster 0]

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There are quite a few here on dz.com who back in 2003 pretty much predicted all that has come to pass, from the lies to the quagmire. YOU are NOT one of them

And then there are those on here who have actually been to Iraq and seen what's going on for themselves who have not allowed themselves to be spun into believing it's a quagmire.

You are not one of them.

[billvon 2,400]

>And then there are those on here who have actually been to Iraq
>and seen what's going on for themselves who have not allowed
>themselves to be spun into believing it's a quagmire.

And there are those that have been to Iraq and know what it's like - and know how fast it's going to shit. The happy "everyone is holding hands and singing kumbaya!" story isn't working anymore.

[kallend 1,623]

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There are quite a few here on dz.com who back in 2003 pretty much predicted all that has come to pass, from the lies to the quagmire. YOU are NOT one of them

And then there are those on here who have actually been to Iraq and seen what's going on for themselves who have not allowed themselves to be spun into believing it's a quagmire.

You are not one of them.

Maybe a marine colonel is:

A series of Pentagon and other government documents either released or leaked in the last week have underscored the deepening debacle confronting the US occupation of Iraq.

The most startling among them is a classified report drafted by the US Marine Corps’ chief intelligence officer in Iraq concluding that the US has already lost in its effort to suppress the resistance in the country’s restive Anbar province.

According to a Washington Post account of the secret document, the intelligence officer, Col. Pete Devlin, concluded that “there is almost nothing the US military can do to improve the political and social situation there.”

The newspaper quoted an Army officer familiar with the report, which was dated August 16, as saying, “We haven’t been defeated militarily, but we have been defeated politically—and that’s where wars are won and lost.” The Post article continued, “Another person familiar with the report said it describes Anbar as beyond repair; a third said it concludes that the United States has lost in Anbar.”

The newspaper noted that the tone of the report was particularly significant given the upbeat “can-do” attitude generally taken by the military in Iraq, in contrast to the CIA, which has issued similarly dire assessments of the situation.

Take off your rose colored glasses.

www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-090106iraq,0,5025714.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Everything is NOT hunky-dory. It's a quagmire.

The best military in the world has been put into a no-win situation for which it is unprepared and untrained by INCOMPETENT CIVILIAN LEADERSHIP.

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

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There are quite a few here on dz.com who back in 2003 pretty much predicted all that has come to pass, from the lies to the quagmire. YOU are NOT one of them

And then there are those on here who have actually been to Iraq and seen what's going on for themselves who have not allowed themselves to be spun into believing it's a quagmire.

You are not one of them.

I wonder why the Iraqi government thinks it necessary to do this, (since everything is so wonderful there):

www.forbes.com/business/businesstech/feeds/ap/2006/09/15/ap3020534.html

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Casurf1978 0]

Next thing you know they'll blame Clinton for Iraq since he gutted the military and people like you and Billvon for lack of patriotism and not supporting the troops.

[stoneycase 0]

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There are quite a few here on dz.com who back in 2003 pretty much predicted all that has come to pass, from the lies to the quagmire. YOU are NOT one of them

And then there are those on here who have actually been to Iraq and seen what's going on for themselves who have not allowed themselves to be spun into believing it's a quagmire.

You are not one of them.

I wonder why the Iraqi government thinks it necessary to do this, (since everything is so wonderful there):

www.forbes.com/business/businesstech/feeds/ap/2006/09/15/ap3020534.html

new and improved water system? could it be, *gasp*, we are actually spending some money toward re-construction?

i say make a moat around baghdad. one drawbridge, and a dragon guarding it. that way, when the terrorists come, we can have the dragon breathe fire on them.

surprisingly, as ridiculous as this sounds, it sounds similar to me, when i compare it against some of the public speeches from this administration regarding our "strategy" (or lack thereof)

Cheney said, "I think things have gotten so bad inside Iraq, from the standpoint of the Iraqi people, my belief is we will, in fact, be greeted as liberators."

...

Asked if Americans are prepared for a "long, costly and bloody battle," Cheney replied: "Well, I don't think it's likely to unfold that way. . . . The read we get on the people of Iraq is there is no question but what they want to the get rid of Saddam Hussein, and they will welcome as liberators the United States when we come to do that."

what i want to know, is who the fuck stole our damn "welcome to iraq" fruit basket...

/i said something waaay back when in writing...and i'll say it again...
//30 yr insurgency

Does whisky count as beer? - Homer
There's no justice like angry mob justice. - Skinner
Be careful. There's a limited future in low pulls - JohnMitchell

[Gravitymaster 0]

Here's a correction to your own story. Perhaps it might help to read the article before you post them.

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FOR THE RECORD:
Iraq violence: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the number of deaths in Iraq had recently increased by 1,000 a month. The Pentagon reported that the number of deaths and injuries have increased by 1,000 a month.

Are you dizzy yet from being spun?

[kallend 1,623]

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Here's a correction to your own story. Perhaps it might help to read the article before you post them.

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FOR THE RECORD:
Iraq violence: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the number of deaths in Iraq had recently increased by 1,000 a month. The Pentagon reported that the number of deaths and injuries have increased by 1,000 a month.

Are you dizzy yet from being spun?

Oh, everything's rosy, then.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Here's a correction to your own story. Perhaps it might help to read the article before you post them.

Quote

FOR THE RECORD:
Iraq violence: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the number of deaths in Iraq had recently increased by 1,000 a month. The Pentagon reported that the number of deaths and injuries have increased by 1,000 a month.

Are you dizzy yet from being spun?

Oh, everything's rosy, then.

Gee for someone who subscribes to an ideology that prides itself in not seing things in black and white, you sure toss that out the window when it comes to Iraq. According to you and Billvon it either has to be hunky dory and rosy or a quagmire.

What happened to gray area's? Not applicable when it comes to a good anti-Bush/Anti-War rant? I though so.

[kallend 1,623]

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Here's a correction to your own story. Perhaps it might help to read the article before you post them.

Quote

FOR THE RECORD:
Iraq violence: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the number of deaths in Iraq had recently increased by 1,000 a month. The Pentagon reported that the number of deaths and injuries have increased by 1,000 a month.

Are you dizzy yet from being spun?

Oh, everything's rosy, then.

Gee for someone who subscribes to an ideology that prides itself in not seing things in black and white, you sure toss that out the window when it comes to Iraq. According to you and Billvon it either has to be hunky dory and rosy or a quagmire.

What happened to gray area's? Not applicable when it comes to a good anti-Bush/Anti-War rant? I though so.

An INCREASE of 1,000 death and injuries/month still looks like a quagmire to me, especially in the light of the Anbar comments from the marine colonel.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Here's a correction to your own story. Perhaps it might help to read the article before you post them.

Quote

FOR THE RECORD:
Iraq violence: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the number of deaths in Iraq had recently increased by 1,000 a month. The Pentagon reported that the number of deaths and injuries have increased by 1,000 a month.

Are you dizzy yet from being spun?

Oh, everything's rosy, then.

Gee for someone who subscribes to an ideology that prides itself in not seing things in black and white, you sure toss that out the window when it comes to Iraq. According to you and Billvon it either has to be hunky dory and rosy or a quagmire.

What happened to gray area's? Not applicable when it comes to a good anti-Bush/Anti-War rant? I though so.

An INCREASE of 1,000 death and injuries/month still looks like a quagmire to me, especially in the light of the Anbar comments from the marine colonel.

So let's summerize here. One General out of thousands comes forward, says what you want to hear, Pavlov Dog syndrome kicks in, and suddenly the sky is falling. Is that about right?

[livetofall 0]

Oh for all sakes consider the source. Commmunist Central Network. Only an IDIOT will believe everything they read. I saw A little bit of writing about the AntiamericanChinaLoversUnity which i wish them and there lawyers woud go, or hopefully some other liberal can convince them on the next "comet ride" Read the article again there IS NO direct qoute of the man. just this:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- Nonlethal weapons such as high-power microwave devices should be used on American citizens in crowd-control situations before being used on the battlefield, the Air Force secretary said Tuesday
i think the "such as" was added by the biglib AP

Heres some neat history for you: Did you know how we figured out microwave ovens?
A: Microwave antennas were around years before. two sailors were working on/around them and died. Upon autopsy then found they were cooked from inside..........mmmmm tastes like chicken!

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[Guest]

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Heres some neat history for you: Did you know how we figured out microwave ovens?
A: Microwave antennas were around years before. two sailors were working on/around them and died. Upon autopsy then found they were cooked from inside..........mmmmm tastes like chicken!

Sorry,

bogus.

"1955--MICROWAVE OVEN
In 1945 Raytheon's Percy Spencer stands in front of a magnetron (the power tube of radar) and feels a candy bar start to melt in his pocket: He is intrigued. When he places popcorn kernels in front of the magnetron, the kernels explode all over the lab. Ten years later Spencer patents a "radar range" that cooks with high-frequency radio waves; that same year, the Tappan Stove Co. introduces the first home microwave model."

link to more detail


mh

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[Skyrad 0]

Sounds like a good idea to me. It only isn't if you value American lives over others. I don't.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[kallend 1,623]

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Here's a correction to your own story. Perhaps it might help to read the article before you post them.

Quote

FOR THE RECORD:
Iraq violence: An earlier version of this story incorrectly stated that the number of deaths in Iraq had recently increased by 1,000 a month. The Pentagon reported that the number of deaths and injuries have increased by 1,000 a month.

Are you dizzy yet from being spun?

Oh, everything's rosy, then.

Gee for someone who subscribes to an ideology that prides itself in not seing things in black and white, you sure toss that out the window when it comes to Iraq. According to you and Billvon it either has to be hunky dory and rosy or a quagmire.

What happened to gray area's? Not applicable when it comes to a good anti-Bush/Anti-War rant? I though so.

An INCREASE of 1,000 death and injuries/month still looks like a quagmire to me, especially in the light of the Anbar comments from the marine colonel.

So let's summerize here. One General out of thousands comes forward, says what you want to hear, Pavlov Dog syndrome kicks in, and suddenly the sky is falling. Is that about right?

And who gives you your information that everything is rosy in Anbar and Baghdad?

It's a quagmire, we can't see our way out, and Bush led us in there.

And another general on the spot chimes in:
today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-09-15T192422Z_01_GEO743062_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ.xml&archived=False

And the classified report on the chaos in Anbar has now been acknowledged by the Army

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[kallend 1,623]

More - from Stars and Stripes:

Army Lt. Gen. Peter W. Chiarelli, commander of Multi-National Corps–Iraq, said portions of the report saying the military cannot stabilize the region without additional social and economic improvements are not surprising or off-base.

“If you read the report, I think it is right on target,” he said. “I don’t think there is any military strategy alone, any kinetic operations alone which will create the conditions for victory. I think the real heart is that there are economic and political conditions that have to improve out in Al Anbar and in the rest of the country.”

The report authored last month by Marine Col. Pete Devlin, whom Chiarelli called a reliable and honest expert on the region, said security in the western province is deteriorating and noted “we have been defeated politically — and that’s where wars are won and lost.”

So how are you going to dismiss the words of the commanding general, quoted in Stars and Stripes?

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The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I never said it was rosey or hunky-dory. Those are words you and Billvon tried to put in my mouth. I said it wasn't a quagmire. Surely an educated man like yourself who prides himself in objectivity, can noodle out the difference.

You can post all the newspaper articles you want. Most of those stories were written by "Stringers" anyway and equate to a "Man bites Dog" mentality.

[livetofall 0]

heh heh jsut like a liberal to try to find some fact out to prove a conservative wrong....Ithough it was the liberals who think the government ,especially the MILITARY, si hiding/covering up stuff...maybe that little candybar internet information you got was a military cover up for the irresponsible loss of two sailors lives. Damn..now you just lost something you could of worked on against the government!

www.911missinglinks.com the definitive truth of 9/11..the who and why, not how

You can handle the TRUTH www.theforbiddentruth.net

[penniless 0]

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I never said it was rosey or hunky-dory. Those are words you and Billvon tried to put in my mouth. I said it wasn't a quagmire. Surely an educated man like yourself who prides himself in objectivity, can noodle out the difference.

You can post all the newspaper articles you want. Most of those stories were written by "Stringers" anyway and equate to a "Man bites Dog" mentality.

You dismiss the words of the commanding general quoted in Stars and Stripes as "Man bites Dog"? You are losing touch with reality.