US solders rape 14 year old Irakian and kill her and her family

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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I was going on the premise that some people think the death sentence is not a good choice and would rather see a life sentence.

I think they said they would prefer to see life in prison in Iraq over the death sentence.

On a side note, when was the last military execution in the US?

[miked10270 0]

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If it were my loved one who was killed, there would be no trial so the point is mute.

So basically you sympathize and agree with Iraqi resistance killing US soldiers in Iraq?

bsbd!

Yuri.

?

The argument is that if WarpedSkydiver claims the right to "Self-Appointed-Vengeance", then he must accept others having the same right.

As such, Iraqi insurgents kidnapping & killing US Soldiers as "retribution" for crimes committed by US Soldiers is in some way fair & just. In effect, a return to frontier Feud and Lynch-Mob law where two wrongs do somehow make a right.

Edited to add: And also hardly relevant to the question of how & where these soldiers should be tried & possibly punished.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[akarunway 1]

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I was going on the premise that some people think the death sentence is not a good choice and would rather see a life sentence.

I think they said they would prefer to see life in prison in Iraq over the death sentence.

On a side note, when was the last military execution in the US?

1961 I believe

The U.S. Military Death Penalty

Executions in the Military

Overview of the military's death penalty system
Racial Disparities in the military's death penalty system




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Facts and Figures

Total Death Row Inmates: 9 (as of 4/1/2006) RACE Black - 6
White - 2

Asian - 1



GENDER Male - 9

United States Military Death Row Roster
1. Kenneth Parker (B)
2. Wade L. Walker (B)
3. [Jessie Quintanilla] (A)
4. [James T. Murphy] (B)
5. Ronald Gray (B)
6. Dwight J. Loving (B)
7. [William Kreutzer] (W)
8. Hasan Akbar (B)
9. Andrew Witt (W)


Names in brackets awaiting re-trial, re-sentencing, or where court ordered reversal is not yet final. (Source: NAACP Legal Defense Fund; updates by DPIC).


Number of Executions
135 people have been executed by the Army since 1916 (Source: National Law Journal, 4/5/99)
Date of last military execution
On April 13, 1961, U.S. Army Private John A. Bennett was hanged after being convicted of rape and attempted murder. (R. Serrano, "Last Soldier to Die at Levenworth Hanged in an April Storm," Los Angeles Times, 7/12/94).
Minimum Age to Receive the Death Penalty
18 years

New Military Regulations regarding Executions (1/16/06)

Death Row Location
U.S. Disciplinary Barracks, Fort Leavenworth, Kansas
Method of Execution
Lethal Injection
Date the Death Penalty Was Reenacted after Furman
In 1983, the Armed Forces Court of Appeals held in U.S. v. Matthews, 16 M.J. 354, that military capital sentencing procedures were unconstitutional for failing to require a finding of individualized aggravating circumstances. In 1984, the death penalty was reinstated when President Ronald Reagan signed an executive order adopting detailed rules for capital courts-martial. Among the rules was a list of 11 aggravating factors that qualify defendants for death sentences.
Life Without Parole
A recent amendment to the Uniform Code of Military Justice offers a new alternative to the death penalty. For crimes that occurred on or after November 17, 1997, a sentence of life without the possibility of parole is now possible. Prior to this legislation, those servicemembers serving a life sentence would be eligible for parole after serving 10 years.
Clemency Process
The President has the power to commute a death sentence and no servicemember can be executed unless the President personally confirms the death penalty.
Capital Offenses
The Uniform Code of Military Justice provides the death penalty as a possible punishment for 15 offenses, many of which must occur during a time of war. All 7 men on the military's death row were convicted of premeditated murder or felony murder.
Who Decides Sentence
In a military capital case, the convening authority -- a high ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to a court martial -- decides if the death penalty will be sought. Once decided, the convening authority picks those servicemembers who will serve as panel members/jurors. One requirement for the panel is that if the accused so chooses, at least 1/3 of the panel must consist of enlisted personnel.
The only other requirement of a panel is that it consist of at least five members. Therefore, the number of panelists in a military death penalty case can vary from case to case. Although no state provides for a panel of less than 12 jurors in a capital case, military appellate courts have rejected challenges to capital court-martialed panels with fewer than 12 members. (see, e.g., United States v. Curtins, 32 M.J. 252 (C.M.A.), cert denied, 502 U.S. 952 (1991)).
(Unless otherwise noted, source: D. Sullivan, "A Matter of Life and Death: Examining the Military Death Penalty's Fairness," The Federal Lawyer, June 1998)



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Overview

An excerpt from:

"A Matter of Life and Death: Examining the Military
Death Penalty's Fairness" by Dwight Sullivan (The Federal Lawyer, June 1998) (reprinted with permssion of author)

Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, 15 offenses can be punishable by death, though many of these crimes -- such as desertion or disobeying a superior commissioned officer's orders -- carry the death penalty only in time of war.
The "convening authority" -- a high-ranking commanding officer who decides to bring the case to trial -- chooses whether the government will seek a death sentence. If the case is referred capitally, the defendant cannot choose a bench [judge only] trial; rather, the case must be tried before a panel of at least five military members. The Uniform Code of Military Justice also precludes the defendant in a capital case from pleading guilty. Thus, every military death penalty case is resolved by trial before a panel of servicemembers.

A death penalty will be imposed only if the panel members reach unanimous agreement on four separate points. First, a military defendant cannot be sentenced to death absent a unanimous conviction of a death-eligible offense.... If the panel returns a unanimous conviction, the case then enters the sentencing phase.... The case's outcome will depend upon the [panel] members' resolution of three issues. First, they must determine whether the government has proven a specified aggravating factor beyond a reasonable doubt.... Most of these aggravating factors -- such as killing more than one person or being the triggerman in a felony murder -- are similar to those found in civilian capital punishment schemes. Other factors -- such as committing an offense with the intent to avoid hazardous duty or knowingly endangering a mission -- are unique to the military.


[The panel] must then weigh all of the aggravating evidence in the case against any evidence in extenuation and mitigation. A death penalty may not be imposed unless the members unanimously conclude that the aggravating circumstances substantially outweigh the mitigating circumstances.
Finally, even if every member agrees upon the existence of an aggravating factor and concludes that the evidence in aggravation outweighs the extenuating and mitigating evidence, any member is still free to choose a sentence other than death. Thus, members must unanimously conclude that death is an appropriate sentence.
When a death sentence is imposed, the record is initially reviewed by the convening authority, who has the power to reduce sentences and to set aside guilty findings.... The convening authority can reduce the sentence, but cannot increase it. And this review is no mere rubberstamp. Several years ago, a Marine Corps general commuted an adjudged death sentence to imprisonment for life. If the convening authority approves the death sentence, the condemned servicemember will be moved to military death row....
The record of trial then goes before one of the military justice system's four intermediate appellate courts: the Army, Navy-Marine Corps, Air Force, or Coast Guard Court of Criminal Appeals.... If the Court of Criminal Appeals affirms a death sentence, the case then goes before the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces, as the Court of Military Appeals was renamed in 1994. The Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces is a five-member Article 1 court that sits atop the military justice system. Its judges are civilians appointed by the President with the advice and consent of the Senate to serve 15-year terms.
[If the Court of Appeals for the Armed Forces affirms the sentence], the case is eligible for Supreme Court review. The Supreme Court's certiorari jurisdiction over military justice cases... was enacted in 1983.... When the Supreme Court affirms [the sentence] or denies certiorari in a military capital case, the death sentence is then reviewed by the executive branch. If the President approves the death sentence, the condemned servicemember can seek habeas relief from the Article III judiciary. If the habeas petition is ultimately denied, the condemned servicemember will be led from death row down a flight of stairs to the USDB's death chamber. There he will be strapped to a gurney and executed by lethal injection.



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Racial Disparity

There is racial disparity on the military's death row. Of those on the military death row today, five are African-American, one is a Pacific Islander, and only one is Caucasian. Whereas nationwide, about half of the 3,600 death row inmates are members of a minority, the military has an 86 percent minority death row population.
According to Dwight Sullivan (see above), "While the number of servicemembers under death sentence is fairly small, the racial disparity in military death penalty cases has been distressingly persistent. During World War II, African-Americans accounted for less than 10 percent of the Army. Yet, of the 70 soldiers executed in Europe during the war, 55 [79%] were African-American. After President Truman ordered an end to the armed forces' segregation in 1948, this racial disparity actually increased. The military carried out 12 executions from 1954 until the most recent one in 1961. Eleven of the 12 executed servicemembers were African-American."
"The death sentences adjudged since 1961 have continued to fall disproportionately on minority servicemembers. In 1983, when the Court of Military Appeals issued its Matthews opinion invalidating the military death penalty, seven servicemembers were on death row. Five were African-American, one was Latino, and one was Caucasian."
In addition to the racial disparity among death row inmates, there is also racial disparity among victims. Each time an African American has been sent to the military's death row, the case has involved a white victim. (R. Serrano, "A Grim Life on Military Death Row," Los Angeles Times, 7/12/94).
For more information about racial disparities, see DPIC's Race and the Death Penalty page.

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News and Developments (Prior to 2005)



Military Death Sentence Vacated
An Army Court of Criminal Appeals has vacated the death sentence of William Kreutzer, a Fort Bragg soldier who was sent to the military’s death row for killing a fellow soldier and wounding others in 1995. The Court cited a number of grounds for the ruling that opens the door for rehearings on some charges and the sentence. For example, Kreutzer’s attorneys failed to adequately explain the significance of their client’s mental health problems for the panel that determined his guilt and sentence. In the ruling, Col. James S. Currie noted, “Appellant’s trial can be summed up in one sentence: Three defense counsel who lacked the ability and experience to defend this capital case were further hampered by the military judge’s erroneous decision to deny them necessary expert assistance, thereby rendering the contested findings and the sentence unreliable.” Court documents revealed that Kreutzer had considered suicide at age 16 and “fantasized out loud” about killing fellow soldiers after they teased him and played practical jokes on him. The Appeals Court criticized the trial judge for refusing to grant a defense request for a “mitigation specialist,” who could explain how Kreutzer’s mental health problems contributed to his actions. See Military Death Penalty. See also Representation.

Pentagon List Gives Names of 169 Military Members Who Were Executed
A list containing the names of 169 members of the U.S. military who were executed between 1942 and 1961 was recently discovered at the Pentagon. The list also contains a few dozen additional cases where persons were sentenced to death, but not executed, and the names of 7 German prisoners of war who were executed. The 1961 execution of Pvt. John Bennett, who was hung after convictions for rape and attempted murder, was the military's last execution. The ledger also includes the name of Pvt. Eddie Slovik, who is the only member of the U.S. military to be executed for desertion since the Civil War. The list was discovered by accident by Pentagon employees and was made public as the military prepares to try accused terrorists currently held at the detention center in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba. The death penalty is a possible sentence in such military tribunals. (Associated Press, December 12, 2003)



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Additional Information
Foreman, Maj. Mary M., "Military Capital Litigation: Meeting the Heightened Standards of United States V. Curtis," Military Law Review, December 2002, 174 Mil. L. Rev. 1
Bonner, Raymond, "Push Is on for Larger Jury in Military Capital Cases," New York Times, September 3, 2001
DeFrank, Thomas M., "Servicemen on Death Row: 6 killers await as military justice crawls" New York Daily News, June 24, 2001

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[miked10270 0]

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I think Mike's choice of punishment is worse than lethal injection.

In fact, now I've thought about it a bit more, if the soldiers are found guilty, then perhaps they should receive life imprisonment in an Iraqi jail.

It's not simple sadism. It's accepting the right of Iraq to govern and examine what's happening in THEIR country.

We trust Iraq to try Saddam Hussein... But not American Soldiers for a relatively minor crime?

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[outrager 6]

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?

He says he'd kill the killers of his loved ones. This is exactly what Iraqis are doing.

bsbd!

Yuri.

[kallend 1,648]

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It's also alleged at this point - not proven.

I would remind people that a lot of accusations have turned out to be bogus.

Will this be? Maybe, maybe not. That's what the court will find out.

These are very serious charges.

mh

Yes they are, but the occurrence of a crime and the obtaining of a conviction can be quite different things. No-one has been convicted of murdering OJ's wife, but she was certainly murdered.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[vortexring 0]

I know it's not simple sadism. I agree with a life sentence in Iraq as opposed to a lethal injection as it's a more suitable punishment.

Of course, Iraqi's should and must self-govern.

I never said they shouldn't be tried there. In actual fact they should.

But it's no minor crime here. Even in comparrison to atrocities Saddam was ultimately responsible for.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

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If it were my loved one who was killed, there would be no trial so the point is mute.

So basically you sympathize and agree with Iraqi resistance killing US soldiers in Iraq?

bsbd!

Yuri.

Which ones? the terrorists killing their own people in order to cause chaos, and therefore revert the country into a hellhole that falls into all out civil war?

The foreign Intelligence services

Iranian Special Forces?

Jihadi's?

There are also those that have been wronged but I would lay odds those aren't the ones who are committing so many attacks and killing not only our forces, but their own countrymen.

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I am saying that I would be wrong, but that might be the outcome anyways.


Call me whatever you like, but I would never fail to do what needs to be done.

I guess I am just fucked up that way.

I thought I would change my feelings on the issue someday , but as I grow older they are only reaffirmed.

Hey at least I tell it like it is.

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[outrager 6]

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So basically you sympathize and agree with Iraqi resistance killing US soldiers in Iraq?

Which ones? the terrorists killing their own people in order to cause chaos,

Not sure if you're reading what you are replying at, so i highlighted the original question

bsbd!

Yuri.

[vortexring 0]

This is getting difficult.................

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[warpedskydiver 0]

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So basically you sympathize and agree with Iraqi resistance killing US soldiers in Iraq?

No I would not join a bunch of "resistance fighters"
who kill, maim, and torture innocent people.

Did I say I needed the help? NO

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[warpedskydiver 0]

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This is getting difficult.................

And I have lost my interest in debating the issue

[vortexring 0]

Some crossed wires going on here mate

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[miked10270 0]

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And I have lost my interest in debating the issue

Agreed. Your side comment on how you would feel personally in the particular hypothetical situation is a complete irrelevance to the thread.

So, getting back to crimes and the appropriate place for trial & punishment...

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Gawain 0]

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Those involved, facing charges, if convicted, will likely get the death penalty. Is that punishment enough?

NOPE!

IF the military enquiry finds there is sufficient evidence, then "Those Involved" should be delivered to an Iraqi court and the US Military should co-operate in the trial.

If convicted, then those involved should serve their sentences in Iraq rather than being absorbed into the American Penal System with the possibility of Parole.

The thing which will rankle with Iraqis is that the perpetrators of this (alleged) crime get to "go home". The attendant analysis will no doubt point out their relative comfort in jail and the minimum term they COULD serve!

Life Imprisonment, without parole, in the country the crime was committed in, seems the most appropriate punishment... And sentence most likely to send the appropriate messages to all parties.

You're obviously not familiar with the US Military Penal System. There is no parole, per se. No matter, if they were convicted in an Iraqi court, they'd likely get the death penalty there too.

Still not satisfied? Can't help you with that.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[Richards 0]

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I'm against death penalty, even (if it is true) for pigs like this.
I'm not religious but when I hear something like this I wish there would be something like hell where they can burn forever...

You are morally opposed to the idea of these guys being killed for what they have been accused of but are OK with them being tortured eternally?

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[miked10270 0]

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You are morally opposed to the idea of these guys being killed for what they have been accused of...

"Errare Humanum Est." I DO have a moral problem with the death penalty being carried out by other humans.

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...but are OK with them being tortured eternally?

That's a religious issue. Perhaps people who have done evil are punished after death. Having never yet been dead, I don't know about that. I dare say I might find out one day.

Although, thinking about it, a relatively painless, medically supervised & humane death hardly equates with the alleged acts, does it?

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[Mikki_ZH 0]

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I'm against death penalty, even (if it is true) for pigs like this.
I'm not religious but when I hear something like this I wish there would be something like hell where they can burn forever...

You are morally opposed to the idea of these guys being killed for what they have been accused of but are OK with them being tortured eternally?

Richards

No, I think they deserve death but I don't think it's in hands of humans to judge and execute this.

Michi (#1068)
hsbc/gba/sba
www.swissbaseassociation.ch
www.michibase.ch

[kallend 1,648]

www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0608090178aug09,1,3423926.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

"Oh what a lovely war", Charles Chilton

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[SkyDekker 1,145]

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You're obviously not familiar with the US Military Penal System. There is no parole, per se. No matter, if they were convicted in an Iraqi court, they'd likely get the death penalty there too.

Still not satisfied? Can't help you with that.

Even if convicted they will not get the death penalty.

[miked10270 0]

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www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0608090178aug09,1,3423926.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed

And they're off!

Combat Stress. Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. Temporary Insanity. Insane at the time of the crime. Army has failed in it's duty of care. They're also victims....

"Tell you what... My clients will take a medical discharge and plead guilty to 'Aggravated Sexual Assault' for 12 years imprisonment & out after serving FIVE! We just quietly release them - no publicity... Like the saying goes: 'It was another country... And besides, the folk are all dead'! So who's left there to remember & complain? Or... It'll be awfully expensive to get all those witnesses over from Eye-Rark and think of the bad publicity the army would get with a full trial and energetic defence."

I can hear the sonic-boom as the brush goes under the carpet from here.

Mike.

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[kbordson 8]

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"You just hit a point where you're like, `If I die today, I die."'

And that is his justification for RAPE of a 14 year old girl... GIRL! Her MURDER.... the MURDER of her FIVE year old sisters .... the MURDER of her parents?!

If you feel you're going to die, why would you do something to take you straight to hell?!

I know war is horrid, but you can't use that as an excuse for raping and killing children.

I wouldn't be opposed to a trial in Iraq. Not to be harsh... cuz I tend to be more forgiving and compassionate, rather because HER culture and life was Iraqi.... that's where she was violated, thats where they should be judged.

[vortexring 0]

If found guilty, anything other than LIFE imprisonment or death will be an absolute outrage.

Especially for the dead victims and the long suffering Iraqi's.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'

[rehmwa 2]

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If found guilty, anything other than LIFE imprisonment or death will be an absolute outrage.

Especially for the dead victims and the long suffering Iraqi's.

agree, life or LIFE is appropriate.

but this has to do with justice (i.e., these criminals need to be taken care of so they can't do it again) - it doesn't have to do with revenge (your dead victim comment) or with obscure political viewpoints (your long suffering Iraqi comment)

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[vortexring 0]

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If found guilty, anything other than LIFE imprisonment or death will be an absolute outrage.

Especially for the dead victims and the long suffering Iraqi's.

agree, life or LIFE is appropriate.

but this has to do with justice (i.e., these criminals need to be taken care of so they can't do it again) - it doesn't have to do with revenge (your dead victim comment) or with obscure political viewpoints (your long suffering Iraqi comment)

Doesn't punishment come into your considerations?

I didn't mention revenge. I didn't even insinuate it.

Long suffering Iraqi's = obscure political viewpoint?

I think I know where this is leading.......

They'res a time and place. Not here. Not now.

'for it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an' "chuck 'im out, the brute!" But it's "saviour of 'is country" when the guns begin to shoot.'