billvon 2,466 #1 August 2, 2006 Rush Limbaugh has taken a brave stand in support of targeting civilians in the Israeli conflict: "Until civilians — frankly, I’m not sure how many of them are actually just innocent little civilians running around versus active Hezbo types, particularly the men — but until those civilians start paying a price for propping up these kinds of regimes, it’s not going to end, folks." Someone recently asked me what logical reason Israel has for targeting civilians. I don't think there _is_ a logical reason, but several people seem to be pushing just that lately. For a fun comparison, see if anyone can identify who said this: -------------------- We declared (war) against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal . . . As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places. ------------------ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #2 August 2, 2006 QuoteFor a fun comparison, see if anyone can identify who said this: -------------------- We declared (war) against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal . . . As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places. So, now you're comparing Rush Limbaugh to Osama bin Laden? One discusses politics on the radio, the other orchestrated the worst terrorist attack in history. That's not even apples and oranges there, Bill, but if you think it's fun, then... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bogwarrior 0 #3 August 2, 2006 Bill , Yes women and children either in their homes , bomb shelters or just trying to escape deserve to be bombed for their " assumed " political beliefs. Even the men in Beiruit who were not " Hezbo types " . Or mabye its because they live in the wrong country. There is a difference between belief, support and even accepting the social assistance that Hezbollah brought to otherwise empoverished people. This would help justify Hezbollahs attacka on civilians in Haifa given 90% of Isrealis support the war. Theres a difference between bravery and stupidity. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #4 August 2, 2006 Quote I don't think there _is_ a logical reason How about: because an armed force that's engaged in an active conflict is intermingling with them? Is this not established? I thought the 4th GC was pretty clear on this, it is Hezbollah's responsibility to operate separately from the people, and otherwise take steps to protect them. Seeing as Hezbollah has not done so, Israel is permitted to mount reasonable attacks that could be expected to result in civilian casualties so long as Hezbollah is legitimately the target. IOW, Hezbollah's tactics are tantamount to using the people as human shields.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,466 #5 August 2, 2006 >So, now you're comparing Rush Limbaugh to Osama bin Laden? Nope. Just comparing their philosophies on the killing of innocent people. Doesn't mean they're the same in other ways. Heck, many people here would agree with parts of the Unabomber's manifesto. Doesn't mean they're going to blow things up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,466 #6 August 2, 2006 >How about: because an armed force that's engaged in an active conflict >is intermingling with them? That's a reason they might be killed when the armed force is targeted. That is NOT a reason to target THEM, and was not the reason given to target them in the discussion above. >Seeing as Hezbollah has not done so, Israel is permitted. . . . What's this "Israel is permitted" stuff? They are going to do whatever they damn well please. This isn't a world democracy, and the only country they listen to (the US) isn't going to try to stop them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #7 August 2, 2006 Quote>How about: because an armed force that's engaged in an active conflict >is intermingling with them? That's a reason they might be killed when the armed force is targeted. That is NOT a reason to target THEM, and was not the reason given to target them in the discussion above. >Seeing as Hezbollah has not done so, Israel is permitted. . . . What's this "Israel is permitted" stuff? They are going to do whatever they damn well please. This isn't a world democracy, and the only country they listen to (the US) isn't going to try to stop them. wait, wait, wait... you two are discussing two different things... Bill is saying that Israel is targeting innocent human beings and Nathaniel is saying that the innocent people are (more or less) collateral damage b/c the IDF are actually targeting Hezbollah forces that are intermingling w/ innocent bystanders. So which is it? Or is it both/and? If Israel IS targeting innocent civilians, people that are in no way colluding, supporting or in any other way aiding Hezbollah, they are just as bad as Hezbollah at this point. If Israel is killing innocent civilians as a result of trying to get Hezbollah operatives who are using innocent people as human shields, the IDF needs to be as careful as possible, but can only do so much. If Israel is being careless and reckless in their attempts to destroy Hezbollah and in so doing is causing undo death and destruction to the civilian populace, again they are acting as badly as Hezbollah. I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #8 August 2, 2006 Quote If Israel IS targeting innocent civilians... I think if Israel wanted to target civilians they'd do a much better job at it. 700,000 are said to have slipped away to the northern bits of Lebanon. There is a difference to me between Dresden/Hamburg style attacks against civilian populations and what Israel is pulling off in Lebanon.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #9 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuote If Israel IS targeting innocent civilians... I think if Israel wanted to target civilians they'd do a much better job at it. 700,000 are said to have slipped away to the northern bits of Lebanon. There is a difference to me between Dresden/Hamburg style attacks against civilian populations and what Israel is pulling off in Lebanon. but they COULD be doing while TRYING to look as if they weren't... at least that's an argument some anti-Israeli camps could make, right? I mean, it would look so incredibly atrocious to target thousands who were making this mass exodus out of dodge, but hey, maybe SOME people would give them the benefit of the doubt if (OOPS!) one itty bitty tank round missed and hit a house full of kids or (MY BAD) a UN post or something... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
nathaniel 0 #10 August 2, 2006 Quote but they COULD Occam's razor applies neatly to that one. It COULD also be the work of extraterrestrials, of Americans in Israeli uniforms...it COULD have everything to do with the Da Vinci code... But it doesn't, not in my fantasy world anyway.My advice is to do what your parents did; get a job, sir. The bums will always lose. Do you hear me, Lebowski? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
micro 0 #11 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuote but they COULD Occam's razor applies neatly to that one. It COULD also be the work of extraterrestrials, of Americans in Israeli uniforms...it COULD have everything to do with the Da Vinci code... But it doesn't, not in my fantasy world anyway. Occam's razor isn't always the answer to complex problems either, and this conflict is far from simple. But hey, thanks for the mockery... you've done nothing to further the debate here w/ this post.... I miss Lee. And JP. And Chris. And... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,466 #12 August 2, 2006 >So which is it? Well, there are enough cases of them actually targeting civilians (including ambulances and UN posts) that there's little doubt it's been done. So the question becomes - why? a) Accidental. This is probably the most likely case, although some are very odd indeed. (Accidentally targeting an ambulance? A UN post you've been shelling for hours, and have gotten phone calls about?) b) To get the Hezbollah guy hiding behind the ambulance (for example.) This is possible, and is what many here are arguing. Such claims, though, require at least some evidence (IMO) since the cost of being wrong is a lot of dead civilians. c) To punish the electorate for voting for Hamas. I thought this unlikely at first, but at least two US commentators have suggested it so far - and a recent interview with an IDF general indicated that they were changing course and "just going after Hezbollah targets now." Which implied that they've been targeting things other than Hezbollah targets. d) Because the Israelis are evil terrorists just like the Hezbollah terrorists. Silly, of course, but I figured I'd list it since some people have put that out there as a straw man. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #13 August 2, 2006 Actually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
falxori 0 #14 August 2, 2006 Quotea) Accidental. This is probably the most likely case, although some are very odd indeed. (Accidentally targeting an ambulance? A UN post you've been shelling for hours, and have gotten phone calls about?) you mean the UN post used by hezbollah as a shield, as described by the actual UN observer there? Quoteb) To get the Hezbollah guy hiding behind the ambulance (for example.) This is possible, and is what many here are arguing. Such claims, though, require at least some evidence (IMO) since the cost of being wrong is a lot of dead civilians do you want proof? ok. there are multiple videos (many shown on the news too) of rocket launchers firing and then taking cover inside a village. the UN post was used as cover by hezbollah fighters. Quotea recent interview with an IDF general indicated that they were changing course and "just going after Hezbollah targets now." Which implied that they've been targeting things other than Hezbollah targets. that's semantics. what it means that during that limited cease fire declared, there will be no strikes against suspected storage areas of rockets and other infrastructure but only air cover for active fighting will be provided. don't forget that english is not the first language for most israelis and direct translation from hebrew doesn't always mean the exact same thing. "Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #15 August 2, 2006 QuoteRush Limbaugh has taken a brave stand in support of targeting civilians in the Israeli conflict: "Until civilians — frankly, I’m not sure how many of them are actually just innocent little civilians running around versus active Hezbo types, particularly the men — but until those civilians start paying a price for propping up these kinds of regimes, it’s not going to end, folks." Someone recently asked me what logical reason Israel has for targeting civilians. I don't think there _is_ a logical reason, but several people seem to be pushing just that lately. For a fun comparison, see if anyone can identify who said this: -------------------- We declared (war) against the US government, because the US government is unjust, criminal and tyrannical. It has committed acts that are extremely unjust, hideous and criminal . . . As for what you asked regarding the American people, they are not exonerated from responsibility, because they chose this government and voted for it despite their knowledge of its crimes in Palestine, Lebanon, Iraq and in other places. ------------------ You followed the stereotype perfectly bill. Pick a snippet and leave all that makes up the context out. Well done!"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #16 August 2, 2006 QuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it."America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #17 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. Just as Hezbolla planned it. I wonder if they wear bracelets that say "WWGGD?" What Would General Giap Do? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,672 #18 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #19 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid? Nice twist"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,672 #20 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid? Nice twist Always a pleasure to be of service... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rushmc 18 #21 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid? Nice twist Always a pleasure to be of service"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,150 #22 August 2, 2006 QuoteI think if Israel wanted to target civilians they'd do a much better job at it. So they aren't doing it, because if they would, more people would be dead...interesting argument. How about the part where a senior Israeli official proclaimed that all left in southern Lebanon are Hezbollah and that Israel should just flatten every village... Couple of days later followd by: We will now only target Hezbollah for 48 hours..... It isn't all pure white (and blue) in Israel..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #23 August 2, 2006 Quote>So, now you're comparing Rush Limbaugh to Osama bin Laden? Nope. Just comparing their philosophies on the killing of innocent people. Doesn't mean they're the same in other ways. Heck, many people here would agree with parts of the Unabomber's manifesto. Doesn't mean they're going to blow things up. Bill, yes, you are, in fact, comparing the two. You said so yourself, "for a fun comparison..." But I digress, the difference is that the Lebanese people did not elect Hizbollah to guard Lebanon's southern border with Israel, or invade Israel to kill and kidnap IDF personnel. Lebanon has a rogue organization inciting violence with no regard to the safety or well being of those Hizbollah claim to be supporting. By contrast, the US armed forces are made up of volunteers who swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the US.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites SkyDekker 1,150 #24 August 2, 2006 he is comparing the justifications used, not the ideologies behind it. The justifications are scarily similar and I always wonder how people justify using it for Israel killing civilians (specifically in Palestine), but don't agree with it when it was used by OBL to kill American civilians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #25 August 2, 2006 Once again.... your missing the point. NOBODY SAID that Hezbolla are saints - THEY ARE MUDERING BASTARDS (Jezz, throw the cracked record out already). This post is about IDF actions only. Muddying the waters adds nothing to the debate. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 Next Page 1 of 4 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. 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kallend 1,672 #18 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #19 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid? Nice twist"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,672 #20 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid? Nice twist Always a pleasure to be of service... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rushmc 18 #21 August 2, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteActually, we really dont have enough information to know if the IDF policy is deliberate or accidental. But the result is the same. People, who should be alive are now dead and the IDF 'looks' bad in the media, because of it. . Just as Hezbolla planned it. Are you saying the Israelis fell for a HB PR ploy? How could they be so stupid? Nice twist Always a pleasure to be of service"America will never be destroyed from the outside, if we falter and lose our freedoms, it will be because we destroyed ourselves." Abraham Lincoln Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #22 August 2, 2006 QuoteI think if Israel wanted to target civilians they'd do a much better job at it. So they aren't doing it, because if they would, more people would be dead...interesting argument. How about the part where a senior Israeli official proclaimed that all left in southern Lebanon are Hezbollah and that Israel should just flatten every village... Couple of days later followd by: We will now only target Hezbollah for 48 hours..... It isn't all pure white (and blue) in Israel..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #23 August 2, 2006 Quote>So, now you're comparing Rush Limbaugh to Osama bin Laden? Nope. Just comparing their philosophies on the killing of innocent people. Doesn't mean they're the same in other ways. Heck, many people here would agree with parts of the Unabomber's manifesto. Doesn't mean they're going to blow things up. Bill, yes, you are, in fact, comparing the two. You said so yourself, "for a fun comparison..." But I digress, the difference is that the Lebanese people did not elect Hizbollah to guard Lebanon's southern border with Israel, or invade Israel to kill and kidnap IDF personnel. Lebanon has a rogue organization inciting violence with no regard to the safety or well being of those Hizbollah claim to be supporting. By contrast, the US armed forces are made up of volunteers who swear an oath to protect and defend the Constitution of the US.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,150 #24 August 2, 2006 he is comparing the justifications used, not the ideologies behind it. The justifications are scarily similar and I always wonder how people justify using it for Israel killing civilians (specifically in Palestine), but don't agree with it when it was used by OBL to kill American civilians. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #25 August 2, 2006 Once again.... your missing the point. NOBODY SAID that Hezbolla are saints - THEY ARE MUDERING BASTARDS (Jezz, throw the cracked record out already). This post is about IDF actions only. Muddying the waters adds nothing to the debate. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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