How about " I am an atheist, and proud of it?

[kelpdiver 2]

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You will either be going to heaven or to hell.

Christianity can't even agree on this.

Personally I liked the Calvinists and their predestination mantra.

[narcimund 0]

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That is quite different from you're saying goodbye to a friend for a few years.

Is it only because the time you're separated from him is longer?

In other words, if you knew you would die in 4 years would your emotion at funerals be similar to my emotion when a friend moves far away for college?

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[pajarito 0]

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Interesting and how would know if someone were saved or not?

Repent of sin and trust in the Savior. Once this is done, God will give you a new heart with new desires. You will become a new creature in Christ (e.g. born again).

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Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
John 3:3

Anything good that you do from then on is because Jesus is in your heart. It is not of ouselves. There is no person who does good when compared to the perfect righteousness of God. We don't deserve forgiveness nor can we do anything to earn it (e.g. total depravity).

That is Biblical. It may not be what many Christian denominations teach but that is beside the point.

[pajarito 0]

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Either you think its fair or you do not believe in a just God.

It is absolutely fair and every single one of us fully deserves to spend an eternity in hell regardless of how long we have on this earth. It is completely justified.

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Come on, eternity, no parole, no rehabilitation, no time off for good behaviour - it all hangs on this world. This crazy world where some get 100 years, some get 5 minutes, some are born into well off devoutly christian families, some are born in devoutly heathen families, some never even hear 'the' message, some get kidnapped, drugged and brainwashed into militias and forced to carry out rapes and massacres before they reach their teens. What's the magic formula?

Sin is NOT having heard the Gospel or of Jesus. It has nothing to do with having been born in to the right family or where you might be from. Sin is transgression of the law. Everyone has done it. No one is innocent when compared to the perfect righteousness of God.

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I'll ask you this - how is a stillborn baby judged? If it goes to hell thats harsh by any standards - if it goes to heaven then thats just a free ride.

There has to be understanding for there to be accountability. A baby does not possess that knowledge. There will be an age when that takes place. You, however, understand, are accountable, and must make your decision. When you sin, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong ... "conscience" (con = with; science = knowledge). You are accountable and will be judged by a holy and just God one day.

[pajarito 0]

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You will either be going to heaven or to hell.

Christianity can't even agree on this.

I don't know what you're talking about here. It's very clear Biblically who will be going to heaven and who will be going to hell.

[pajarito 0]

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In other words, if you knew you would die in 4 years would your emotion at funerals be similar to my emotion when a friend moves far away for college?

Let's just say that it would make it easier to know that the person who has died was a born again Christian.

[kelpdiver 2]

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You will either be going to heaven or to hell.

Christianity can't even agree on this.

I don't know what you're talking about here. It's very clear Biblically who will be going to heaven and who will be going to hell.

There's a substantial difference between the Catholic notion of Purgatory (nevermind paid indulgences) and the Protestant Hell.

And like I said, the Calvinists believed they were already saved, and the rest would burn.

[Dolph 0]

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Why do discussions with Atheists always degenerate into them speaking of examples of silly childhood or insane imaginative characters with which they try to compare? Is it just frustration setting in?

Ah my apologies if you found the examples a ridicule to your faith. If you read the later part of my post I think you'll agree my point has nothing to do with your personal faith but rather has to do with a re-definition that fails to take everything into account.

And you are an a-[insert something you utterly lack any belief in, or knowledge of]. Not because you have faith in that, but because you lack it. Call it a non-[something] if you have an aversion to the connotations of the a- thing.

It is simply as nonsensical to most atheists to suggests that they have faith in there being no God as it is to say that you have faith that the moon people don't exist.

The argument, in other words, is not really related to your faith at all. It's about the argument that lack of something must mean existence of something else.

B = faith
If A equals NULL then A must be B.

I'm happy on your behalf that you have faith and would not ridicule you for it - it's quite a marvel for me. I've read your posts and respect your faith. You just got caught in the crossfire in a discussion about the reclassification of lack of faith as faith. Rehmwa would be quite right in calling a belief that God does NOT exist as faith - but a lack of belief either way is not faith.

And it's not agnosticism either. Agnosticism is simply the belief that the existence of God or Gods cannot be known (strong agnosticism) or currently isn't known (weak). Being an agnostic isn't really related to having faith in the existence, non existence or lacking such faith in a deity or deities. It's about knowledge of (or lack thereof).

So ya have agnostic atheists, agnostic theists and apathetic agnostics. This is where it gets REALLY fun discussing religion at the bar after 10 beer. And there's a lot more to agnosticism than just that.

[JackC 0]

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There has to be understanding for there to be accountability. A baby does not possess that knowledge. There will be an age when that takes place. You, however, understand, are accountable, and must make your decision. When you sin, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong ... "conscience" (con = with; science = knowledge). You are accountable and will be judged by a holy and just God one day.

So what happens to those who don't have any understanding? Free ticket to heaven?Do over? I can't for the life of me understand this whole god concept. Do I get a do over?

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Are you an active non-Muslim?

No. I have no interest in that religion so it does not apply.

Ahh, so religion applys only to those who are interested. Religion is a bit like a hobby then.

I've learned quite a bit in this thread. Christianity is not a religion but atheism is. Even if you have never heard of a concept you are still actively not-believeing it. Your immortal soul is destined for hell unless you have no interest in that particular religion in which case it doesn't apply. Babies have got a get out of jail free card because they are ignorant and grown ups get their get out of jail free card if it's their hobby.

This religion stuff is confusing.

[Mockingbird 0]

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Sin is NOT having heard the Gospel or of Jesus. It has nothing to do with having been born in to the right family or where you might be from. Sin is transgression of the law. Everyone has done it. No one is innocent when compared to the perfect righteousness of God.

In Reply To
I'll ask you this - how is a stillborn baby judged? If it goes to hell thats harsh by any standards - if it goes to heaven then thats just a free ride.

There has to be understanding for there to be accountability. A baby does not possess that knowledge. There will be an age when that takes place. You, however, understand, are accountable, and must make your decision. When you sin, you do it with knowledge that it is wrong ... "conscience" (con = with; science = knowledge). You are accountable and will be judged by a holy and just God one day.

I'm not disagreeing with this. I just wanted to add my thoughts. Although you are right,[ John says that] sin is transgression of God's laws, I also look at sin from a larger(?) perspective. I think of the original sin, which belonged to Satan. He was an angel who ministered closely to God (as far as we can tell from some passages in Isaiah), and who became jealous of God. He wanted to be LIKE God, and decided that this would be his goal--- to become like God, in other words, GREAT, GLORIOUS, ALMIGHTY... IN CHARGE, basically. Notice that when Satan deceived Eve and talked her into sinning, he stirred up her desire to be LIKE GOD, too. Satan told her that if she would just ignore the one command God had given her and Adam, she would become just like God, knowing everything, even good and EVIL (which hadn't even existed until Satan rebelled).

So I see sin more as a principle or attitude than an action...tho' the attitude results in actions. But the attitude of sin is one of rebellion, of not wanting God to be God of one's life, but wanting yourself to be god of your life. In other words, sin is like declaring your independence from God and living in a state of independence from God.

All the other stuff-- lying, hate, conceit, meanness, immorality (sexual sins), murder, etc. are just symptoms of the larger principle of sin--- namely, living independently of God and doing your own thing without regard for what God wants from you.

Blue skies & happy jitters ~Mockingbird
"Why is there something rather than nothing?"

[Digitalmafia 0]

Ah humans debating their creation/creator or lack of...

I woke up faithless and in terror one night as I realized that we are simply shells, vessels if you will, for the true god DNA. It has but one desire to replicate and spread. Man is the highest level that DNA has been able to reach and with it DNA will someday leave the Earth and spread itself further (the cosmic joke I guess is that we deem ourselves important and unique enough to have a god along with our attempts at reason-the DNA is clever that way).

Disturbed, I turned on the TV and caught a little Reality Television (I think it was American Idol or something) and remembered that I have my wife, my SUV, my pool (which is bigger then my neighbors) as well as an excellent deferred retirement plan, xbox360 and more toys then I have time for AND my house grew in value 70K in the last 10 months. God? Creation? Christians?? Islam and Terrorism...somehow my terror faded and I felt good...I am at the moment sedated by the light the tv gives off and happy that I have spent most of my life consuming and consuming like a good host. My Movies are canned and marketed for me, My food is faster and cheaper then ever, My religion forgives and forgives while holding its hand out (the one behind its back has its fingers crossed), My boss lets me leave early on friday, My time is spent not searching inward for a spark of humanity but discussing regurgitated CNN headlines over my Starbucks while debating how it really is from the point of view of the poor silly Iraqi who has to suffer collateral damage while trying to get water for his children AND he should be thankful of me because my taxes pay for saving him....

Heaven/Hell - Ohio/Afghanistan - whatever. I will consume with you and call you my brother because WE are ALL unified under one religion - Capitalism. Would you like frys with your God?

DM.

[rehmwa 2]

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Rehmwa would be quite right in calling a belief that God does NOT exist as faith - but a lack of belief either way is not faith.

There it is, thanks. I confused the issue by calling this 'faith' as religion for quite a while in the thread - even against my pretty well defined attitudes towards the two terms. Luckily Don reminded me about that and we fixed it.

apathetic agnostic a-bobist is working pretty well for me - {those arrogant know it alls really tick me off, what with their funny clothes and special driving lanes}

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Royd 0]

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Heaven/Hell - Ohio/Afghanistan - whatever. I will consume with you and call you my brother because WE are ALL unified under one religion - Capitalism. Would you like frys with your God?

Careful there. We might bring some hardcore socialist/ communists into this discussion.

[pirana 0]

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Luckily Don reminded me about that and we fixed it.

apathetic agnostic a-bobist is working pretty well for me - {those arrogant know it alls really tick me off, what with their funny clothes and special driving lanes}

You're blowing my cover/secret identity again.
Made 6 jumps last night - some really fun ones. Attempted a very cool hybrid dive, didn't get it all together, but damn good fun trying. Hear you have a kids activity weekend going on too. Maybe see you Wednesday or Friday.

I'm going with Pantheistic Humanist with a twist of a-Bobism.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[pajarito 0]

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There's a substantial difference between the Catholic notion of Purgatory (nevermind paid indulgences) and the Protestant Hell.

There is no Biblical foundation for Purgatory.

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And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
Hebrews 9:27

[LRC 0]

If there is a god, he's one hell of an ego to want all that worshiping....maybe that's the meaning of life.....god felt abit down, so created the universe to cheer him up a bit?

[narcimund 0]

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In other words, if you knew you would die in 4 years would your emotion at funerals be similar to my emotion when a friend moves far away for college?

Let's just say that it would make it easier to know that the person who has died was a born again Christian.

You're avoiding the question with slippery misdirections. That reveals a lot.

There's no sense to a committed, consistent Christian mourning the death of another saved christian. Funerals should be more like graduation ceremonies. We should expect to see cheering, confetti, and smiles. If they actually believed what they preach, christians should think the death of loved ones is GREAT!

The fact that christians cry, moan, and gnash their teeth (just like non-christians do) demonstrates an indirect proof that even they don't believe their own superstitious party line.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[skydyvr 0]

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The fact that christians cry, moan, and gnash their teeth (just like non-christians do) demonstrates an indirect proof that even they don't believe their own superstitious party line.

False argument.

People's religious beliefs are based in FAITH, and so therefore they have DOUBTS and QUESTIONS about it, just the same as anyone else. Any Christian that tells you doubts and questions never enter their mind is being dishonest.

Nobody KNOWS what awaits us after death.

Whether or not one has strong FAITH in their religion, dealing with death generally happens the same way. It's very painful, even if you BELIEVE that person will be waiting on the other side.

Additionally, even those who strongly BELIEVE in an afterlife have to deal with the fact that THIS GIG is over for the deceased, and that itself can be saddening.

You seem to be making some fantasy argument that just because people have religious faith, they are somehow immune to the NATURAL grief we feel when someone dies -- a pointless argument if there ever was one, and which certainly doesn't prove your assertions.

. . =(_8^(1)

[narcimund 0]

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False argument.

False? No, that's a bit strong. But you do make a good point that I went too far. Grief for the dead can be explained in light of religious doubts rather than outright disbelief.

In that case I'd expect people to grieve according to the strength of their doubts however. The DEEPLY convinced would barely grieve (and mostly celebrate) while those with shaky convictions would act more like disbelievers do.

Is there such a range? Could one measure that with a sociological study? Wouldn't it be interesting to do so?

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Nobody KNOWS what awaits us after death.

Lots of people claim to KNOW what awaits them. Pajarito claims to.

And it's not a matter of whether they're right or not. We're only talking about how convinced they are. If they really REALLY believe that things just get better after death, they should be HAPPY about it.

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Additionally, even those who strongly BELIEVE in an afterlife have to deal with the fact that THIS GIG is over for the deceased, and that itself can be saddening.

Why is that saddening? Earth is the time of tests and difficulty. Your loved one has graduated to the Great Reward. Frankinsense and Myrhh for eternity. WHY DOES THAT MAKE YOU SAD???

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You seem to be making some fantasy argument that just because people have religious faith, they are somehow immune to the NATURAL grief we feel when someone dies -- a pointless argument if there ever was one, and which certainly doesn't prove your assertions.

What is "NATURAL grief"? I've never heard that term before.

First Class Citizen Twice Over

[skydyvr 0]

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Grief for the dead can be explained in light of religious doubts rather than outright disbelief.

Agreed. I've pondered your very question myself in the past and wondered why religious types grieve, and come to the simple conclusion that despite what they believe, they are subject to the same drivings of their mortal coils as are we all.

You do believe we are ALL driven by forces below the concious level, right? People grieve involuntarily.

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Is there such a range? Could one measure that with a sociological study? Wouldn't it be interesting to do so?

That's very interesting. You'd have to find ways to factor out other contributors to grief level such as an individual's basic "give a shit" level -- some people just don't give a shit if anyone else dies for reasons not based on religious belief.

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Lots of people claim to KNOW what awaits them. Pajarito claims to.

Well, we know that "know in your heart", and "know" are two different things. I'll bet Pajarito would admit to having an occasional satanically driven twinge of doubt now and then.

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Why is that saddening? Earth is the time of tests and difficulty. Your loved one has graduated to the Great Reward. Frankinsense and Myrhh for eternity. WHY DOES THAT MAKE YOU SAD???

I'll agree earth is a theater of testing and pain, but at the same time, lots of good stuff happens. For example I'm having so much fun, I myself will be very sad to see me go. If anyone else is sad to see me go too (maybe my pets), that's understandable.

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What is "NATURAL grief"? I've never heard that term before.

Grief is grief, it wasn't important to label it as "natural". But it's probably tastier and better for you than "artificial grief".

. . =(_8^(1)

[Royd 0]

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If there is a god, he's one hell of an ego to want all that worshiping....maybe that's the meaning of life.....god felt abit down, so created the universe to cheer him up a bit?

One could argue that a man has the same need. He finds a wife and has children so that they can look up to him, admire him, obey him, and call him Father, just because he likes to be happy. Any irony there?

[jakee 1,257]

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One could argue that a man has the same need. He finds a wife and has children so that they can look up to him, admire him, obey him, and call him Father, just because he likes to be happy. Any irony there?

You could argue that, but for most people I think you'd be wrong.

Unless we're still living in the 50's - anyone know the date?

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Royd 0]

One could argue that a man has the same need. He finds a wife and has children so that they can look up to him, admire him, obey him, and call him Father, just because he likes to be happy. Any irony there?

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You could argue that, but for most people I think you'd be wrong.

Are we back to the argument of relative moralism? Adjusting morals to make something appear to be OK.
If not, what purpose,other that pure procreation of the species, does a person have to bring children into this world?

[Vallerina 2]

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How about " I am an atheist, and proud of it?

Because it's the same reasons that I'm not proud of being tall....or being proud of really loving Mexican food. In my opinion, Mexican food is the only real food out there. Nothing is as good as Mexican food. I prefer it, but it doesn't mean that just because it's what I like that it's something to be proud of. Others may not like it. That's fine by me.

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Why don't you post your own thread and boast about how nothingness has always been there to help you out in your darkest hour?

In some of my darker hours, my nothingness made me realize that I'm the only one who can pull myself out of situations....and not wait for some miracle.

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Is it Christ or his flawed followers that really pisses you people off?

Wow....I don't know any atheists who are pissed off about people that follow Christ. I don't think I could be angry at 80% of the population (I could try, though! ) I get pissed off when people use THEIR religion to try to tell ME what to do.

There's a thin line between Saturday night and Sunday morning

[hairyjuan 0]

more proof that the bible is a myth, jesus is the personification of the mythical Sol Invictus, even the "apostle Paul" is fictitiuos

we are all one consciousness experiencing itself subjectively


wishers never choose, choosers never wish