warpedskydiver 0 #1 May 23, 2006 Greek, Turkish Military Planes Collide Tuesday, May 23, 2006 10:37 AM EDT The Associated Press By DEREK GATOPOULOS ATHENS, Greece (AP) — Warplanes from Greece and Turkey collided over the Aegean Sea island of Karpathos as they shadowed each other Tuesday. Officials said the Turkish pilot was rescued unhurt, and a search was launched for the Greek pilot. Fighter planes from the two NATO allies frequently intercept each other over the Aegean, mostly in areas of disputed airspace. The Turkish military identified both planes as F-16 fighter jets and said the Turkish pilot, 1st Lt. Halil Ibrahim Ozdemir, was rescued by a merchant ship. Greek authorities said a search was under way for the pilot of the Greek plane. Authorities in Greece initially said there were two Turks aboard the Turkish plane, but later said only one was aboard. The government in Ankara only made reference to Ozdemir. "It appears the incident occurred while the Greek plane was intercepting the Turkish jet," Greek government spokesman Evangelos Antonaros said. Greece says its national airspace extends to 10 miles, but Turkey recognizes only six miles — the same distance as territorial waters. Long-standing disputes over airspace and territorial rights in the Aegean have nearly led to three wars between them since 1974. Relations between Greece and Turkey have been steadily deteriorating in recent months, despite Athens' promotion of Turkey's candidacy to join the European Union and Premier Costas Caramanalis' personal friendship with Turkish Premier Recep Tayyip Erdogan. Turkish Defense Minister Vecdi Gonul said his country's chief of staff was in contact with his Greek counterpart over the incident. "An F-16 belonging to the Turkish air forces crashed in the air with an F-16 belonging to the Greek air forces and both planes fell," the Turkish military said, adding that the incident was under investigation. The Greek Defense Ministry said the planes crashed into the sea 12 1/2 miles south of Karpathos. The Greek jet was based at Souda Air Force base on the island of Crete. Quote Holy shit all that airspace and they collide...I wonder if it was nose to nose?....other than that maybe he was trying to boom and zoom on him... Anyone else have an idea on this one? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites AggieDave 6 #2 May 23, 2006 QuoteHoly shit all that airspace and they collide...I wonder if it was nose to nose?....other than that maybe he was trying to boom and zoom on him... Anyone else have an idea on this one? Yeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites NWFlyer 2 #3 May 23, 2006 QuoteYeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. But are there Sharks in the Aegean ?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #4 May 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteYeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. But are there Sharks in the Aegean ? There is water in there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #5 May 23, 2006 QuoteGreece says its national airspace extends to 10 miles, but Turkey recognizes only six miles — the same distance as territorial waters. Long-standing disputes over airspace and territorial rights in the Aegean have nearly led to three wars between them since 1974. Sheesh, all that grief over four lousy miles. Compromise at eight and go home! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #6 May 23, 2006 Survival Rule....Do NOT play dodgems in the air, keep shit like that on the ground! Seriously, these 2 countries have got to get the act together. If Turkey wants to join the EU familiy, they cannt be fighting with the Greeks all the time... and if Greece doesnt stop pissing around, they can get out. There y'go I've sorted it (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,265 #7 May 23, 2006 QuoteSheesh, all that grief over four lousy miles. Compromise at eight and go home! Its not about airspace, thats just one more way for them to have a go at each other. Its disputed territory, Cyprus in particular, that makes them angry.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites masterblaster72 0 #8 May 23, 2006 QuoteSheesh, all that grief over four lousy miles. Compromise at eight and go home! Good luck -- in the Balkans, compromise is a foreign concept. Shropshire - Turkey is going to have to do a whole lot more than just stop pissing off the Greeks to join the EU. For starters, they need to thoroughly clean up their abysmal human rights record. Not to mention that they should acknowledge (or at least apologize for their previous denials of) the Armenian genocide. Those items are just for starters...present-day Turkey has *no* business being in the EU, IMHO. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #9 May 23, 2006 I agree with you... not going to happen any time yet. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Lok 0 #10 May 23, 2006 Hello to everybody, I’ll try to explain you the situation over Aegean Sea. Sorry about my English, but I’ll try to do my best. The Greek airspace is 10 miles and the sea space is 6 miles. This is not what Greece say but what both Greece and turkey have signed during international agreement years before (before World War 2). This is really quite strange through all the countries in the world has the same miles on both sea and airspace. But that doesn’t matter through there is an agreement that have signed both countries. That means: in Greek coastline and around all Greek islands there is 6 miles sea space and 10 miles airspace under Greek control. turkish for THEIR OWN reasons forget the agreement they had sign and now speaking for only 6 miles Greek airspace. This is the legal part of the problem. (Keep in mind that Greece has the right from the international law court (law about the sea of 1982) to increase his airspace and sea space at 12 miles, at any time, but turkey has officially said that if Greece increases the airspace and sea space to 12 miles, that would be the start of the war over AEGEAN!!!!! (CASUS BELLI!!!!). The real problem is that turkey after 1974 when without any right invaded the island of Cyprus (with 82% Greek population), starts also to looking at the Aegean Sea……many times in the near past the turkish generals ( the real government of this country) claimed half of the Aegean Sea with more than 20 major Greek islands would be turkish!!!!!!! Even there isn’t ONE tURKISH leaved in the Aegean Sea islands and even Aegean Sea islands are Greek for over 4000 years!!!!!!! That the real problem (turkish offence tactic) and not the 6 miles or 10 miles Greek Airspace. turkish air force fighter violent Greek Airspace constantly from 1980 and after with 100ndres of mock dogfights take place every year between Hellenic (Greek) AIR FORCE Combat fighters and turkish jets. For this reason Greece has developed constantly from 1974 and after its Air Force to one of the best in the world, keeping in 24 hours alert its interceptors on just 5 minutes take off. (Sometimes 2 minutes alert!!! the pilot waiting for scramble inside the aircraft). Their pilots are among the best in the world with over 200 flight hours every year + 100ndred of winning mock dogfights over Aegean and total air superiority. Billion of Dollars had spend on the past 35 years for hundred of modern fighters, equipment , radars, armament and training+ 1 billion dollar every year for just the additional fuel required for the mock dogfights and alert of Greek Air-force ( turkish have the opportunity to violent Greek air space at the time and place who they select, Greek Air force must be on alert all the time and this is super expensive for little country like Greece) Now speaking of today’s ‘accident’ the turkish as usual violent the Athens FIR without any flight plan (very dangerous for civil aviation also) and flew over Greek islands (f..k the 6 miles story), the formation was a turkish RF-4E ( reckon edition of F-4 Phantom) and a pair of turkish F-16, the Hellenic air force scramble two F-16 to intercepted the turkish fighters…. During the following Dog Fight the Greek F-16 took the tail of turkish F-16 and the two fighters come two close. (Keep in mind that Greek Air Force fighters during dog fights with turkish intruders usually come two close so the photo-machine guns can take close photos of turkish fighters and their numbers and insignia. Consequently Greece Ministry of foreign can make denunciation on NATO or other international organizations with documents). That was the point when the turkish stupid pilot make the mistake and during crap turning, (at his effort to brake the lock) and hit the Greek fighter at 27.000ft. First who saw the accident was an Egyptian airliner pilot flying at 34.000ft who report on Greek air space controllers that saw a blast (according to him about 2000ft lower than his flight level). This is the number six well known ‘accident’ between turkish and Greek air force over AEGEAN in the past 35 years. The first was in 1974 Cyprus crisis, you can find more here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1652850&postcount=115 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1652628&postcount=104 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1651721&postcount=99 Also another turkish F-4E and F-16 were shot down during mock dog-fights with Greek fighters on 1994 in two separate accidents and also a turkish F-16D on 1996 shouted down by a Greek Mirage 2000 in the only known ‘accident’ in peace when Greek fighter make use of air-to-air missiles…..more about this here: 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112 Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage 2000s took off from their forward base and turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, another 2 Turkish F-16s (one C and one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time. the Turkish ground controller directed these 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage 2000s to intercept them before the Mirage 2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement. The Turkish F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas. The back seater in Turkish F-16D was Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Nail Erdogan. After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. It caused an explosion and put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col Cemil Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Nail Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly. The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios island (Greek area) and Col Cemil Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cemil Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program. This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Col Cemil Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas visited him in the hospital. Greeks claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas have had right to fire. But air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire... but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home..." "...Family of ‘downed’ Turk to sue. ANKARA (AFP) - Relatives of a Turkish air force pilot killed in 1996 when his jet was lost over the Aegean Sea want compensation from Greece, which they accuse of downing the plane, the family’s lawyer said yesterday. On October 8, 1996, Turkey announced the loss of an F-16 during an Aegean training mission, in what Ankara said was international air space north of Samos. One of the pilots managed to eject and was rescued, but the other, Captain Nail Erdogan, 35, was killed. The Turkish Milliyet daily recently quoted a former air force chief, General Ahmet Corekci, as saying the plane was downed by a missile fired by a Greek fighter. Athens has denied this. 'The right to life was violated... to obtain moral and material compensation we shall shortly be bringing an action against Greece' before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, Mehmet Emin Keles told AFP. He said the suit would also seek recovery of Erdogan’s plane and body from the sea. Yesterday, Turkish press reports said Erdogan’s family would be asking for 2 trillion Turkish liras (just over a million euros) in compensation...." Also a movie of real engagement (mock dogfight) from a Greek Air Force F-16 hud ( head-up-display) http://www.haf.gr/media/hud_1.wmv Today another Greek pilot lost his life. He was a father of a 1.5 years old son and 5 years old daughter. Tribute and Honor to Hellenic air Force pilots who lost their life, defend their country. http://www.haf.gr/media/skyhigh.wmv http://www.haf.gr/media/HAFAniversaryPlanes.wmv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #11 May 24, 2006 QuoteSurvival Rule....Do NOT play dodgems in the air, keep shit like that on the ground! Seriously, these 2 countries have got to get the act together. If Turkey wants to join the EU familiy, they cannt be fighting with the Greeks all the time... and if Greece doesnt stop pissing around, they can get out. There y'go I've sorted it Turkey and the EU...hmmm...I bet they say "stuff the EU" and stay on the side lines just like the UK.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #12 May 24, 2006 QuoteYeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. How about Officer Krupke? Did they have an Officer Krupke?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites martin-o 0 #13 May 24, 2006 QuoteTurkey and the EU...hmmm...I bet they say "stuff the EU" and stay on the side lines just like the UK. What did you mean by that? Just as a clarification: Turkey has sought membership in the EU for years but haven’t yet been accepted for negotiations because of the lacking respect of human rights in the country. UK is a member of the EU… /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #14 May 24, 2006 QuoteNot to mention that they should acknowledge (or at least apologize for their previous denials of) the Armenian genocide. Those items are just for starters...present-day Turkey has *no* business being in the EU, IMHO. The EU, or anybody else, expecting Turkey to confess and apologize for their atrocities is just silly political gamesmanship. Not too mention a precedent no other country would willingly follow unless forced by said political gamesmanship. While they were at it they could also own up to the genocide against the Kurds. Oh no, wait a minute, we helped them with that - let's keep that one out of the deal. Hey, maybe we coud have a big international confessional where everybody fesses up to all their past miscellaneous atrocities and starts with a clean slate. A big kumbaya and group hug. Riiiiiiiight. Thanks for the post Lok, good stuff." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #15 May 24, 2006 QuoteWhat did you mean by that? Just as a clarification: Turkey has sought membership in the EU for years but haven’t yet been accepted for negotiations because of the lacking respect of human rights in the country. UK is a member of the EU The UK won't adopt the EU constitution or the Euro and neither is likely to ever happen since the EU constitution has been rejected in votes in at least three other states. In affect, by those inactions, the UK is already "ready" to go it alone. Turkey, is also in the unique position to not "need" the EU. This country regularly reasserts its sovereign position as a non-socialized republic, which is ideal for it's diverse economic base. No one can say being a part of the EU has been a treat. What has it earned France, Germany, Spain or Italy? High unemployment and stagnant economic growth. That is not the poster-child of attraction. I wouldn't want to be a part of that, neither do most Britons as I've read about it. Having said that, the planes being flown by each country was American anyway... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites shropshire 0 #16 May 24, 2006 Looks like a win-win situation fro the US of A.... get to sell 2 more planes (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites martin-o 0 #17 May 24, 2006 Well, I too voted against the Euro when I had the chance, but that doesn’t mean that I think that my country should withdraw from the European project. As a person “in the middle of your assumptions” I can quite frankly say that you might have a clue about Great Britain (although the UK is nowhere near pulling out of the EU) but when it comes to Turkey you are disturbingly misinformed. Turkey has driven a loud campaign for decays to try to get in and has come along way closer but isn’t there because of many reason. A big one is that it’s a country that doesn’t respect human rights, another one is that many (read most) European countries is afraid of the implications of a country with so fundamentally different viewpoints having as much power as it would. It’s hard to get along as it is… When it comes to France and Germany I hope your kidding me, what about peace? Spain has gone from being an agricultural dictatorship to a modern nation during the last couple of decays (Franco died 1975 and Spain entered the EU in 1986). Most of that has come from hard working Spanish people, some from massive EU financial support… I don’t think they are too sad about their nation’s evolution. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #18 May 24, 2006 Quote, another one is that many (read most) European countries is afraid of the implications of a country with so fundamentally different viewpoints having as much power as it would. It’s hard to get along as it is… I read that as "Islamic Nation with so fundamentally different viewpoints". Doesn't ring far from rhetoric some have heard from parts of Europe in the past, whether recent or distant. Europe should be concerned. Turkey is indeed fundamentally different, no so much in form of government, but structure of society. QuoteWhen it comes to France and Germany I hope your kidding me, what about peace? I hope you're kidding me. Neither France or Germany brought peace between them. Each had to get their hats handed to them twice to get them out of the ring. It was UK, US and Russian troops that forced that game to an end, twice in the case of the US and UK. QuoteSpain has gone from being an agricultural dictatorship to a modern nation during the last couple of decays (Franco died 1975 and Spain entered the EU in 1986). Most of that has come from hard working Spanish people, some from massive EU financial support… I don’t think they are too sad about their nation’s evolution. I don't know anything about anyone's sadness. I do know that Spain, despite its progress is still a parliamentary monarchy. Their economy is growing, but unemployment is high. Spain's recent election of a socialist party government, in the wake of 3/11, will not make it any easier for the economy to adapt. That, and their immediate appeasal to al Qaeda in the wake of 3/11 can not be a point of pride. The promise offered by an European Union has not been realised to its full potential, or ideal, in my opinion.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites martin-o 0 #19 May 25, 2006 QuoteI read that as "Islamic Nation with so fundamentally different viewpoints". Doesn't ring far from rhetoric some have heard from parts of Europe in the past, whether recent or distant. Europe should be concerned. Turkey is indeed fundamentally different, no so much in form of government, but structure of society. Speaking of assumptions… QuoteI hope you're kidding me. Neither France or Germany brought peace between them. Each had to get their hats handed to them twice to get them out of the ring. It was UK, US and Russian troops that forced that game to an end, twice in the case of the US and UK. The European project is from the very beginning a peace project, a way to secure long lasting peace between the big countries in Europe. Peace through strong economical bonds. Everything else is just a modern bonus. Look up “History of the European Union” in wikipedia. QuoteI don't know anything about anyone's sadness. I do know that Spain, despite its progress is still a parliamentary monarchy. Their economy is growing, but unemployment is high. Spain's recent election of a socialist party government, in the wake of 3/11, will not make it any easier for the economy to adapt. That, and their immediate appeasal to al Qaeda in the wake of 3/11 can not be a point of pride. Well I live in a monarchy that has a socialist government. Despite this we have one of the highest growth numbers in the western world today (4% last year), and I would say that my freedoms surpass that of most Citizens in the US. The monarchies in Europe today don’t live because they have the power to do so but because the people want them to live on, mostly for reasons of tradition. Something I guess you maybe don’t truly understand since you live in a nation with very short history. When it comes to socialism the same rule applies. If you live in a part of the world (maybe everywhere else but the Anglo saxian part), the word socialism hasn’t been feed to you coupled with speeches of evil. In Europe it has been socialist and liberal forces that ones overthrew kings and dictators to allow democracy, not rightwing parties. QuoteThe promise offered by an European Union has not been realised to its full potential, or ideal, in my opinion. That Is something I can fully agree on, maybe with the exception that I’m uncertain witch promises has been told. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #20 May 25, 2006 It helps to remember the EU's old name, The European Economic Community. The thing that keeps member countries IN the EU is the same thing which makes other countries want to join. Free Trade & Subsidies. The thing which tends to tear the EU apart is national pride versus centralised policies & government. EU Members benefit from the free movement of goods, services & people throughout the EU. Outsiders are faced with import tariffs & restrictions which make their goods less competitive. Because of this, countries on the EU borders, whose main market is the EU want membership to allow them unrestricted sales in the EU. Turkey (for example) has a significant and cheap textile industry but is presently restricted in the amount of goods it can sell in the EU. However, there is the question of whether allowing Turkey membership would benefit the existing member nations or harm them. For example, Germany WILL have something to say on the removal of restrictions on their "Gastarbeiter". Same with several other EU members who don't want an influx of uncontrolled cheap labour raising their domestic unemployment rates. From there, the tool used to prevent Turkish membership is the "Ethnic-Card". Is Turkey "European"? What about the religous differences? Aren't there human rights issues? Didn't Turkey commit some atrocities 100 years ago? These arguments seem hypocritical in the face of some EU policies... Following the money provides a more logical answer! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites martin-o 0 #21 May 25, 2006 I agree with you but my point wasn’t to try to determine the exact cause of why European leaders are sceptical towards Turkey. My point is that Turkey is quite eager to join the EU. There is a quite big resistance towards the EU in some parts of the Union. I think you and I live in probably the most sceptical parts (UK and Sweden). Here people are very sceptical and voted against EMU and the Euro but at the same time there is no support for leaving the Union. You can’t live with them and you can’t live without them… Edit to ad: By here I mean Sweden. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Gawain 0 #22 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteI read that as "Islamic Nation with so fundamentally different viewpoints". Doesn't ring far from rhetoric some have heard from parts of Europe in the past, whether recent or distant. Europe should be concerned. Turkey is indeed fundamentally different, no so much in form of government, but structure of society. Speaking of assumptions… Really? You don't remember when France was literally on fire for three weeks (with some spill-over into Germany and Belgium) due to immigrant minority riots? Sh*t, the French government was so out of their realm they were measuring their "success" (failure) by the number of cars that had burned during the course of a day. QuoteThe European project is from the very beginning a peace project, a way to secure long lasting peace between the big countries in Europe. Peace through strong economical bonds. Everything else is just a modern bonus. Look up “History of the European Union” in wikipedia. I'm not saying that the EU project is not based on the idea of maintaining peace. I am saying that Europe did not bring that peace about. It took external coersion, twice to bring that about first. There was no peace before both nations were finally "beaten into a pulp", France first at the hand of Germamy then Germany at the hands of the US, UK, and Russia. Without continued presence by the US on top of that to face the Warsaw Pact, peace would have been tenuous at best. QuoteWell I live in a monarchy that has a socialist government. Despite this we have one of the highest growth numbers in the western world today (4% last year), With due respect and acknowledgement to Sweden's economic growth and stability, your GDP growth in 2005 was 2.6%, not bad. Unemployment is relatively low too at 6%. Sweden is also a nation of only 9M people. The US is the largest export partner too. From my brief bit of research, a lot of people call in "sick" up in that part of the world. No matter, I'm told it's beautiful up there and Sweden builds a fine fighter jet. Hopefully, GM will divest SAAB so you can really "build" it again. Quote and I would say that my freedoms surpass that of most Citizens in the US. I'll argue against that. We should cite some examples to bounce around. Could be fun. Quote The monarchies in Europe today don’t live because they have the power to do so but because the people want them to live on, mostly for reasons of tradition. Something I guess you maybe don’t truly understand since you live in a nation with very short history. I agree with the first part of your statement. My country fought against a monarchy to gain its independence, that is why we do not embrace the ideal. Having said that, the US follows the British Royal Family with great interest and admiration and criticism. QuoteWhen it comes to socialism the same rule applies. If you live in a part of the world (maybe everywhere else but the Anglo saxian part), the word socialism hasn’t been feed to you coupled with speeches of evil. In Europe it has been socialist and liberal forces that ones overthrew kings and dictators to allow democracy, not rightwing parties. To a degree you're right. My issue is that the people fought for freedom from a monarchy that would supposed to "provide" only to install a government and then expect that government to "provide". France and Germany are prime examples of social programs which will crumble their economy without drastic change. It is a pity their citizens do not see this.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites miked10270 0 #23 May 25, 2006 OR... We quite like the economic benefits... But DON'T EVEN THINK of telling us how to live. For example, I recall that alcohol is taxed quite heavily in Sweden. Do y'all do the occasional "Booze-Cruise" to Germany to stock up on cheap alcohol? Here in Britain our alcohol, cigarettes & tobacco are relatively heavily taxed. Thus you'll see ferries full of the "I-Hate-Europe" brigade going to France & Belgium to stock up. There's even been talk of boats sailing from Belgium or Holland and heaving-to just outside British waters for other boats to take folk out "shopping"! I'd say that Britain & Sweden aren't the most Euro-Sceptic nations. We are the most visibly divided on how far we should go beyond a purely economic community and the present mid-point we're at is unsatisfactory to both points of view. Personally, I'm slightly in favour of complete integration with Europe. Law, Currency, Taxation and Government... As opposed to complete withdrawal from Europe and an application to become America's 51st State. Britain is simply too small to go it alone without the Empire or Commonwealth. But the majority are happy to go along with the current "Cherry-Picking" approach to European union. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites martin-o 0 #24 May 25, 2006 My point still stands: Turkey would like to be a part of the EU. If you want to test who have the best knowledge about the country where I have lived for 27 years, just bring it on ;-) And … GM only bought the automotive part of SAAB and we thank you for pouring billions of dollars into that losing battle :-) /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites jakee 1,265 #25 May 25, 2006 QuotePersonally, I'm slightly in favour of complete integration with Europe. Law, Currency, Taxation and Government.. I agree. I think its entirely possible that in the future countries in Europe will become more and more like states in the USA with a central European federal government. Of course the current EU parliament would have to be radically overhauled - hell it needs that anyway.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
AggieDave 6 #2 May 23, 2006 QuoteHoly shit all that airspace and they collide...I wonder if it was nose to nose?....other than that maybe he was trying to boom and zoom on him... Anyone else have an idea on this one? Yeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. --"When I die, may I be surrounded by scattered chrome and burning gasoline." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
NWFlyer 2 #3 May 23, 2006 QuoteYeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. But are there Sharks in the Aegean ?"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." -P.J. O'Rourke Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #4 May 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteYeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. But are there Sharks in the Aegean ? There is water in there Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #5 May 23, 2006 QuoteGreece says its national airspace extends to 10 miles, but Turkey recognizes only six miles — the same distance as territorial waters. Long-standing disputes over airspace and territorial rights in the Aegean have nearly led to three wars between them since 1974. Sheesh, all that grief over four lousy miles. Compromise at eight and go home! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #6 May 23, 2006 Survival Rule....Do NOT play dodgems in the air, keep shit like that on the ground! Seriously, these 2 countries have got to get the act together. If Turkey wants to join the EU familiy, they cannt be fighting with the Greeks all the time... and if Greece doesnt stop pissing around, they can get out. There y'go I've sorted it (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,265 #7 May 23, 2006 QuoteSheesh, all that grief over four lousy miles. Compromise at eight and go home! Its not about airspace, thats just one more way for them to have a go at each other. Its disputed territory, Cyprus in particular, that makes them angry.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
masterblaster72 0 #8 May 23, 2006 QuoteSheesh, all that grief over four lousy miles. Compromise at eight and go home! Good luck -- in the Balkans, compromise is a foreign concept. Shropshire - Turkey is going to have to do a whole lot more than just stop pissing off the Greeks to join the EU. For starters, they need to thoroughly clean up their abysmal human rights record. Not to mention that they should acknowledge (or at least apologize for their previous denials of) the Armenian genocide. Those items are just for starters...present-day Turkey has *no* business being in the EU, IMHO. Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #9 May 23, 2006 I agree with you... not going to happen any time yet. (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Lok 0 #10 May 23, 2006 Hello to everybody, I’ll try to explain you the situation over Aegean Sea. Sorry about my English, but I’ll try to do my best. The Greek airspace is 10 miles and the sea space is 6 miles. This is not what Greece say but what both Greece and turkey have signed during international agreement years before (before World War 2). This is really quite strange through all the countries in the world has the same miles on both sea and airspace. But that doesn’t matter through there is an agreement that have signed both countries. That means: in Greek coastline and around all Greek islands there is 6 miles sea space and 10 miles airspace under Greek control. turkish for THEIR OWN reasons forget the agreement they had sign and now speaking for only 6 miles Greek airspace. This is the legal part of the problem. (Keep in mind that Greece has the right from the international law court (law about the sea of 1982) to increase his airspace and sea space at 12 miles, at any time, but turkey has officially said that if Greece increases the airspace and sea space to 12 miles, that would be the start of the war over AEGEAN!!!!! (CASUS BELLI!!!!). The real problem is that turkey after 1974 when without any right invaded the island of Cyprus (with 82% Greek population), starts also to looking at the Aegean Sea……many times in the near past the turkish generals ( the real government of this country) claimed half of the Aegean Sea with more than 20 major Greek islands would be turkish!!!!!!! Even there isn’t ONE tURKISH leaved in the Aegean Sea islands and even Aegean Sea islands are Greek for over 4000 years!!!!!!! That the real problem (turkish offence tactic) and not the 6 miles or 10 miles Greek Airspace. turkish air force fighter violent Greek Airspace constantly from 1980 and after with 100ndres of mock dogfights take place every year between Hellenic (Greek) AIR FORCE Combat fighters and turkish jets. For this reason Greece has developed constantly from 1974 and after its Air Force to one of the best in the world, keeping in 24 hours alert its interceptors on just 5 minutes take off. (Sometimes 2 minutes alert!!! the pilot waiting for scramble inside the aircraft). Their pilots are among the best in the world with over 200 flight hours every year + 100ndred of winning mock dogfights over Aegean and total air superiority. Billion of Dollars had spend on the past 35 years for hundred of modern fighters, equipment , radars, armament and training+ 1 billion dollar every year for just the additional fuel required for the mock dogfights and alert of Greek Air-force ( turkish have the opportunity to violent Greek air space at the time and place who they select, Greek Air force must be on alert all the time and this is super expensive for little country like Greece) Now speaking of today’s ‘accident’ the turkish as usual violent the Athens FIR without any flight plan (very dangerous for civil aviation also) and flew over Greek islands (f..k the 6 miles story), the formation was a turkish RF-4E ( reckon edition of F-4 Phantom) and a pair of turkish F-16, the Hellenic air force scramble two F-16 to intercepted the turkish fighters…. During the following Dog Fight the Greek F-16 took the tail of turkish F-16 and the two fighters come two close. (Keep in mind that Greek Air Force fighters during dog fights with turkish intruders usually come two close so the photo-machine guns can take close photos of turkish fighters and their numbers and insignia. Consequently Greece Ministry of foreign can make denunciation on NATO or other international organizations with documents). That was the point when the turkish stupid pilot make the mistake and during crap turning, (at his effort to brake the lock) and hit the Greek fighter at 27.000ft. First who saw the accident was an Egyptian airliner pilot flying at 34.000ft who report on Greek air space controllers that saw a blast (according to him about 2000ft lower than his flight level). This is the number six well known ‘accident’ between turkish and Greek air force over AEGEAN in the past 35 years. The first was in 1974 Cyprus crisis, you can find more here: http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1652850&postcount=115 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1652628&postcount=104 http://www.militaryphotos.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1651721&postcount=99 Also another turkish F-4E and F-16 were shot down during mock dog-fights with Greek fighters on 1994 in two separate accidents and also a turkish F-16D on 1996 shouted down by a Greek Mirage 2000 in the only known ‘accident’ in peace when Greek fighter make use of air-to-air missiles…..more about this here: 4 Turkish F-4Es from 112 Seytan filo based in Eskisehir was on CAP training mission over Aegean. As usual, 2 Greek Mirage 2000s took off from their forward base and turned towards F-4Es. At the same time, another 2 Turkish F-16s (one C and one D) were on a training mission near F-4Es too and "were not armed" that time. the Turkish ground controller directed these 2 F-16s towards Greek Mirage 2000s to intercept them before the Mirage 2000s reach F-4Es. As usual, 2 side merged and dogfight started, little later it turn to 1 on 1 engagement. The Turkish F-16D piloted by Captain Nail Erdogan engaged with 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas. The back seater in Turkish F-16D was Col Cemil Cicekli just returned from 2 years of military attache duty in UK and was in refresher trainig with squadron IP Captain Nail Erdogan. After trying to gain advantage on each other, in a head on pass, Grivas fired a Magic II and shot F-16D. It caused an explosion and put F-16D in fire ball. Force of the explosion forced Col Cemil Cicekli out of cockpit without pulling ejection handle, Captain Nail Erdogan did not have time to eject and was probably killed instantly. The F-16D crashed 10 miles off Chios island (Greek area) and Col Cemil Cicekli rescued by Greek SAR helo. Col Cemil Cicekli was in a shock after the incident and did not talk to Greeks too much. Strangely, Greeks thought he can not be Turkish since he speaks good English, someone (HAF officers) in Greece claimed he could be a IDF pilot in squadron exchange program. This whole incident went to AFM and discussed several times in the past. After Col Cemil Cicekli returned to Turkey, he said that 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas visited him in the hospital. Greeks claimed that F-16D was violating Greek air space and 1st Lt (HAF) Thanasis Grivas have had right to fire. But air space violations are two sided, sometimes HAF also violates Turkish national air space. It happened in the past and it can happen in the future too. IF ROE is applied, every single interception can turn bloody and each side can fire... but fortunatley this did not happened in the past, will not happen in the future too. Usual encounters in Aegean are just to show off pilot skills to other side and go home..." "...Family of ‘downed’ Turk to sue. ANKARA (AFP) - Relatives of a Turkish air force pilot killed in 1996 when his jet was lost over the Aegean Sea want compensation from Greece, which they accuse of downing the plane, the family’s lawyer said yesterday. On October 8, 1996, Turkey announced the loss of an F-16 during an Aegean training mission, in what Ankara said was international air space north of Samos. One of the pilots managed to eject and was rescued, but the other, Captain Nail Erdogan, 35, was killed. The Turkish Milliyet daily recently quoted a former air force chief, General Ahmet Corekci, as saying the plane was downed by a missile fired by a Greek fighter. Athens has denied this. 'The right to life was violated... to obtain moral and material compensation we shall shortly be bringing an action against Greece' before the European Court of Human Rights in Strasbourg, Mehmet Emin Keles told AFP. He said the suit would also seek recovery of Erdogan’s plane and body from the sea. Yesterday, Turkish press reports said Erdogan’s family would be asking for 2 trillion Turkish liras (just over a million euros) in compensation...." Also a movie of real engagement (mock dogfight) from a Greek Air Force F-16 hud ( head-up-display) http://www.haf.gr/media/hud_1.wmv Today another Greek pilot lost his life. He was a father of a 1.5 years old son and 5 years old daughter. Tribute and Honor to Hellenic air Force pilots who lost their life, defend their country. http://www.haf.gr/media/skyhigh.wmv http://www.haf.gr/media/HAFAniversaryPlanes.wmv Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #11 May 24, 2006 QuoteSurvival Rule....Do NOT play dodgems in the air, keep shit like that on the ground! Seriously, these 2 countries have got to get the act together. If Turkey wants to join the EU familiy, they cannt be fighting with the Greeks all the time... and if Greece doesnt stop pissing around, they can get out. There y'go I've sorted it Turkey and the EU...hmmm...I bet they say "stuff the EU" and stay on the side lines just like the UK.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #12 May 24, 2006 QuoteYeah, it was kinda like West Side Story, just without the dancing, the snapping and music, BUT it did have the Jets. How about Officer Krupke? Did they have an Officer Krupke?" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin-o 0 #13 May 24, 2006 QuoteTurkey and the EU...hmmm...I bet they say "stuff the EU" and stay on the side lines just like the UK. What did you mean by that? Just as a clarification: Turkey has sought membership in the EU for years but haven’t yet been accepted for negotiations because of the lacking respect of human rights in the country. UK is a member of the EU… /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #14 May 24, 2006 QuoteNot to mention that they should acknowledge (or at least apologize for their previous denials of) the Armenian genocide. Those items are just for starters...present-day Turkey has *no* business being in the EU, IMHO. The EU, or anybody else, expecting Turkey to confess and apologize for their atrocities is just silly political gamesmanship. Not too mention a precedent no other country would willingly follow unless forced by said political gamesmanship. While they were at it they could also own up to the genocide against the Kurds. Oh no, wait a minute, we helped them with that - let's keep that one out of the deal. Hey, maybe we coud have a big international confessional where everybody fesses up to all their past miscellaneous atrocities and starts with a clean slate. A big kumbaya and group hug. Riiiiiiiight. Thanks for the post Lok, good stuff." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #15 May 24, 2006 QuoteWhat did you mean by that? Just as a clarification: Turkey has sought membership in the EU for years but haven’t yet been accepted for negotiations because of the lacking respect of human rights in the country. UK is a member of the EU The UK won't adopt the EU constitution or the Euro and neither is likely to ever happen since the EU constitution has been rejected in votes in at least three other states. In affect, by those inactions, the UK is already "ready" to go it alone. Turkey, is also in the unique position to not "need" the EU. This country regularly reasserts its sovereign position as a non-socialized republic, which is ideal for it's diverse economic base. No one can say being a part of the EU has been a treat. What has it earned France, Germany, Spain or Italy? High unemployment and stagnant economic growth. That is not the poster-child of attraction. I wouldn't want to be a part of that, neither do most Britons as I've read about it. Having said that, the planes being flown by each country was American anyway... So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
shropshire 0 #16 May 24, 2006 Looks like a win-win situation fro the US of A.... get to sell 2 more planes (.)Y(.) Chivalry is not dead; it only sleeps for want of work to do. - Jerome K Jerome Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin-o 0 #17 May 24, 2006 Well, I too voted against the Euro when I had the chance, but that doesn’t mean that I think that my country should withdraw from the European project. As a person “in the middle of your assumptions” I can quite frankly say that you might have a clue about Great Britain (although the UK is nowhere near pulling out of the EU) but when it comes to Turkey you are disturbingly misinformed. Turkey has driven a loud campaign for decays to try to get in and has come along way closer but isn’t there because of many reason. A big one is that it’s a country that doesn’t respect human rights, another one is that many (read most) European countries is afraid of the implications of a country with so fundamentally different viewpoints having as much power as it would. It’s hard to get along as it is… When it comes to France and Germany I hope your kidding me, what about peace? Spain has gone from being an agricultural dictatorship to a modern nation during the last couple of decays (Franco died 1975 and Spain entered the EU in 1986). Most of that has come from hard working Spanish people, some from massive EU financial support… I don’t think they are too sad about their nation’s evolution. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #18 May 24, 2006 Quote, another one is that many (read most) European countries is afraid of the implications of a country with so fundamentally different viewpoints having as much power as it would. It’s hard to get along as it is… I read that as "Islamic Nation with so fundamentally different viewpoints". Doesn't ring far from rhetoric some have heard from parts of Europe in the past, whether recent or distant. Europe should be concerned. Turkey is indeed fundamentally different, no so much in form of government, but structure of society. QuoteWhen it comes to France and Germany I hope your kidding me, what about peace? I hope you're kidding me. Neither France or Germany brought peace between them. Each had to get their hats handed to them twice to get them out of the ring. It was UK, US and Russian troops that forced that game to an end, twice in the case of the US and UK. QuoteSpain has gone from being an agricultural dictatorship to a modern nation during the last couple of decays (Franco died 1975 and Spain entered the EU in 1986). Most of that has come from hard working Spanish people, some from massive EU financial support… I don’t think they are too sad about their nation’s evolution. I don't know anything about anyone's sadness. I do know that Spain, despite its progress is still a parliamentary monarchy. Their economy is growing, but unemployment is high. Spain's recent election of a socialist party government, in the wake of 3/11, will not make it any easier for the economy to adapt. That, and their immediate appeasal to al Qaeda in the wake of 3/11 can not be a point of pride. The promise offered by an European Union has not been realised to its full potential, or ideal, in my opinion.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin-o 0 #19 May 25, 2006 QuoteI read that as "Islamic Nation with so fundamentally different viewpoints". Doesn't ring far from rhetoric some have heard from parts of Europe in the past, whether recent or distant. Europe should be concerned. Turkey is indeed fundamentally different, no so much in form of government, but structure of society. Speaking of assumptions… QuoteI hope you're kidding me. Neither France or Germany brought peace between them. Each had to get their hats handed to them twice to get them out of the ring. It was UK, US and Russian troops that forced that game to an end, twice in the case of the US and UK. The European project is from the very beginning a peace project, a way to secure long lasting peace between the big countries in Europe. Peace through strong economical bonds. Everything else is just a modern bonus. Look up “History of the European Union” in wikipedia. QuoteI don't know anything about anyone's sadness. I do know that Spain, despite its progress is still a parliamentary monarchy. Their economy is growing, but unemployment is high. Spain's recent election of a socialist party government, in the wake of 3/11, will not make it any easier for the economy to adapt. That, and their immediate appeasal to al Qaeda in the wake of 3/11 can not be a point of pride. Well I live in a monarchy that has a socialist government. Despite this we have one of the highest growth numbers in the western world today (4% last year), and I would say that my freedoms surpass that of most Citizens in the US. The monarchies in Europe today don’t live because they have the power to do so but because the people want them to live on, mostly for reasons of tradition. Something I guess you maybe don’t truly understand since you live in a nation with very short history. When it comes to socialism the same rule applies. If you live in a part of the world (maybe everywhere else but the Anglo saxian part), the word socialism hasn’t been feed to you coupled with speeches of evil. In Europe it has been socialist and liberal forces that ones overthrew kings and dictators to allow democracy, not rightwing parties. QuoteThe promise offered by an European Union has not been realised to its full potential, or ideal, in my opinion. That Is something I can fully agree on, maybe with the exception that I’m uncertain witch promises has been told. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #20 May 25, 2006 It helps to remember the EU's old name, The European Economic Community. The thing that keeps member countries IN the EU is the same thing which makes other countries want to join. Free Trade & Subsidies. The thing which tends to tear the EU apart is national pride versus centralised policies & government. EU Members benefit from the free movement of goods, services & people throughout the EU. Outsiders are faced with import tariffs & restrictions which make their goods less competitive. Because of this, countries on the EU borders, whose main market is the EU want membership to allow them unrestricted sales in the EU. Turkey (for example) has a significant and cheap textile industry but is presently restricted in the amount of goods it can sell in the EU. However, there is the question of whether allowing Turkey membership would benefit the existing member nations or harm them. For example, Germany WILL have something to say on the removal of restrictions on their "Gastarbeiter". Same with several other EU members who don't want an influx of uncontrolled cheap labour raising their domestic unemployment rates. From there, the tool used to prevent Turkish membership is the "Ethnic-Card". Is Turkey "European"? What about the religous differences? Aren't there human rights issues? Didn't Turkey commit some atrocities 100 years ago? These arguments seem hypocritical in the face of some EU policies... Following the money provides a more logical answer! Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin-o 0 #21 May 25, 2006 I agree with you but my point wasn’t to try to determine the exact cause of why European leaders are sceptical towards Turkey. My point is that Turkey is quite eager to join the EU. There is a quite big resistance towards the EU in some parts of the Union. I think you and I live in probably the most sceptical parts (UK and Sweden). Here people are very sceptical and voted against EMU and the Euro but at the same time there is no support for leaving the Union. You can’t live with them and you can’t live without them… Edit to ad: By here I mean Sweden. /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gawain 0 #22 May 25, 2006 QuoteQuoteI read that as "Islamic Nation with so fundamentally different viewpoints". Doesn't ring far from rhetoric some have heard from parts of Europe in the past, whether recent or distant. Europe should be concerned. Turkey is indeed fundamentally different, no so much in form of government, but structure of society. Speaking of assumptions… Really? You don't remember when France was literally on fire for three weeks (with some spill-over into Germany and Belgium) due to immigrant minority riots? Sh*t, the French government was so out of their realm they were measuring their "success" (failure) by the number of cars that had burned during the course of a day. QuoteThe European project is from the very beginning a peace project, a way to secure long lasting peace between the big countries in Europe. Peace through strong economical bonds. Everything else is just a modern bonus. Look up “History of the European Union” in wikipedia. I'm not saying that the EU project is not based on the idea of maintaining peace. I am saying that Europe did not bring that peace about. It took external coersion, twice to bring that about first. There was no peace before both nations were finally "beaten into a pulp", France first at the hand of Germamy then Germany at the hands of the US, UK, and Russia. Without continued presence by the US on top of that to face the Warsaw Pact, peace would have been tenuous at best. QuoteWell I live in a monarchy that has a socialist government. Despite this we have one of the highest growth numbers in the western world today (4% last year), With due respect and acknowledgement to Sweden's economic growth and stability, your GDP growth in 2005 was 2.6%, not bad. Unemployment is relatively low too at 6%. Sweden is also a nation of only 9M people. The US is the largest export partner too. From my brief bit of research, a lot of people call in "sick" up in that part of the world. No matter, I'm told it's beautiful up there and Sweden builds a fine fighter jet. Hopefully, GM will divest SAAB so you can really "build" it again. Quote and I would say that my freedoms surpass that of most Citizens in the US. I'll argue against that. We should cite some examples to bounce around. Could be fun. Quote The monarchies in Europe today don’t live because they have the power to do so but because the people want them to live on, mostly for reasons of tradition. Something I guess you maybe don’t truly understand since you live in a nation with very short history. I agree with the first part of your statement. My country fought against a monarchy to gain its independence, that is why we do not embrace the ideal. Having said that, the US follows the British Royal Family with great interest and admiration and criticism. QuoteWhen it comes to socialism the same rule applies. If you live in a part of the world (maybe everywhere else but the Anglo saxian part), the word socialism hasn’t been feed to you coupled with speeches of evil. In Europe it has been socialist and liberal forces that ones overthrew kings and dictators to allow democracy, not rightwing parties. To a degree you're right. My issue is that the people fought for freedom from a monarchy that would supposed to "provide" only to install a government and then expect that government to "provide". France and Germany are prime examples of social programs which will crumble their economy without drastic change. It is a pity their citizens do not see this.So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright 'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life Make light! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
miked10270 0 #23 May 25, 2006 OR... We quite like the economic benefits... But DON'T EVEN THINK of telling us how to live. For example, I recall that alcohol is taxed quite heavily in Sweden. Do y'all do the occasional "Booze-Cruise" to Germany to stock up on cheap alcohol? Here in Britain our alcohol, cigarettes & tobacco are relatively heavily taxed. Thus you'll see ferries full of the "I-Hate-Europe" brigade going to France & Belgium to stock up. There's even been talk of boats sailing from Belgium or Holland and heaving-to just outside British waters for other boats to take folk out "shopping"! I'd say that Britain & Sweden aren't the most Euro-Sceptic nations. We are the most visibly divided on how far we should go beyond a purely economic community and the present mid-point we're at is unsatisfactory to both points of view. Personally, I'm slightly in favour of complete integration with Europe. Law, Currency, Taxation and Government... As opposed to complete withdrawal from Europe and an application to become America's 51st State. Britain is simply too small to go it alone without the Empire or Commonwealth. But the majority are happy to go along with the current "Cherry-Picking" approach to European union. Mike. Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable. Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
martin-o 0 #24 May 25, 2006 My point still stands: Turkey would like to be a part of the EU. If you want to test who have the best knowledge about the country where I have lived for 27 years, just bring it on ;-) And … GM only bought the automotive part of SAAB and we thank you for pouring billions of dollars into that losing battle :-) /Martin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jakee 1,265 #25 May 25, 2006 QuotePersonally, I'm slightly in favour of complete integration with Europe. Law, Currency, Taxation and Government.. I agree. I think its entirely possible that in the future countries in Europe will become more and more like states in the USA with a central European federal government. Of course the current EU parliament would have to be radically overhauled - hell it needs that anyway.Do you want to have an ideagasm? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
