flag waving at today's protest- i'm confused

[squirrel 0]

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As for wanting Spanish taught in our schools to all students is not just among the politicians. There are 'rights groups' and other groups pushing for it. The politicians 'latched on' to the idea in hopes of promoting their own cause... 'self promotion'.

this is true. i taught kids across the country regarding fire safety for 3 years, and was REQUIRED to have a spanish speaking crew member. the local teachers would most of the time NOT translate, so in effect, the kids were NEVER getting taught english, everything was taught in spanish. but hey, WTF do i know.

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Where is Darwin when you need him?

[masterrig 1]

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As for wanting Spanish taught in our schools to all students is not just among the politicians. There are 'rights groups' and other groups pushing for it. The politicians 'latched on' to the idea in hopes of promoting their own cause... 'self promotion'.

this is true. i taught kids across the country regarding fire safety for 3 years, and was REQUIRED to have a spanish speaking crew member. the local teachers would most of the time NOT translate, so in effect, the kids were NEVER getting taught english, everything was taught in spanish. but hey, WTF do i know.

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Kinda' makes you feel imposed upon, doesn't it? I equate that with going into just about any store and need some help in regard to a possible purchase only to be met with a distinct 'language barrier'. The store worker doesn't know what I'm talking about because they don't speak American. I don't feel as though I should have to learn their language to accomodate them. I think, it should be the other way around.


Chuck

[JohnRich 4]

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why are the people waving the flags of the countries that they left while protesting to become americans?

Yeah, it's odd.

If they really wanted to do something for Mexicans, they would hold these protests in the streets of Mexico City, calling on President Fox to end government corruption, so that their own country could be prosperous. Then they wouldn't need to come to America illegally.

[JohnRich 4]

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Blacks "took the US" back in the 1860's. Irish "took the US" shortly after the potato famine. Yet here we all are. Heck, we even think black people and irish people are real americans! Someday we will look at mexicans the same way.

The difference is, that in the past, immigrants assimilated into the American culture. They learned to speak English, learned our civics, and so on. The immigrants coming into America now, demand that Americans cater to them, by not requiring them to speak English. They demand special multi-language printings of all government documents, and so on. They no longer want to assimilate and join our culture. They insist that our culture cater to theirs. And that's where they go wrong.

[billvon 2,463]

>The difference is, that in the past, immigrants assimilated into
>the American culture. They learned to speak English . . . .

At the time such things were going on, people would have disagreed violently with you. "What are you talking about? The irish all live together in their own communities; they have zero desire to assimilate! They just want to take our jobs, drink all day and have their kids grow up on welfare!" There were a great many cases of apartments refusing to rent to irish, want ads saying "irish need not apply" etc. (And the Irish did not learn a new language to 'fit in', they came over with it.)

Today I can go down my street and see two irish bars, nestled in there amongst the mexican food places, pho ga places and sushi places. Society hasn't fallen apart.

>They no longer want to assimilate and join our culture.

In 50 years, US mexicans will be complaining about how the chinese don't want to assimilate and join our culture like they did - just as everyone claimed the irish didn't want to assimilate back in the 1900's. History repeats.

>They insist that our culture cater to theirs.

Nope. At worst they insist that we let them do what we do, which is to create our own cultures. I have never, ever been told to stop doing something by a recent mexican immigrant; indeed, they seem to go out of their way to speak english and find their own place in society (even if it's not the place you want them to have.)

[masterrig 1]

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Blacks "took the US" back in the 1860's. Irish "took the US" shortly after the potato famine. Yet here we all are. Heck, we even think black people and irish people are real americans! Someday we will look at mexicans the same way.

The difference is, that in the past, immigrants assimilated into the American culture. They learned to speak English, learned our civics, and so on. The immigrants coming into America now, demand that Americans cater to them, by not requiring them to speak English. They demand special multi-language printings of all government documents, and so on. They no longer want to assimilate and join our culture. They insist that our culture cater to theirs. And that's where they go wrong.

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We are talking 'illegals', aren't we? They seem to be the one's who don't want to assimilate. They seem to be the one's who don't want to learn our language and stay amongst their own... where they feel safe. The folks that I know who are legal, don't seem to have a problem with learning our language and etc. They also, resent the illegals.


Chuck


Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

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Today I can go down my street and see two irish bars, nestled in there amongst the mexican food places, pho ga places and sushi places. Society hasn't fallen apart.

you keep wanting to link this to our past, while disregarding the notion of illegal versus legal immigration. Controlled versus uncontrolled population growth. Makes for easier debate, I know.

[kelpdiver 2]

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The illegals pay 'sales tax'. They don't pay Federal income Tax because they fear being tracked-down and returned to Mexico.
Those folks who come here 'legally', pay their taxes, yes!

At the income levels we're talking about, sales tax is the primary form of taxation.

And if they're using a phony SS number to get work, the employer is deducting income tax. If the workers don't file a return because they'll get caught, they'll almost certainly overpay on the income taxes.

[billvon 2,463]

>you keep wanting to link this to our past, while disregarding
>the notion of illegal versus legal immigration.

John Rich was speaking specifically to immigrants who do not want to "assimilate." I think illegal immigrants are criminals, and would support legislation that a) makes it harder to be an illegal immigrant and b) makes it easier to be a legal one. OTOH I could care less about what sort of food they choose to eat, what language they choose to speak, what sort of restaraunts they want to open and where they want to live.

[masterrig 1]

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The illegals pay 'sales tax'. They don't pay Federal income Tax because they fear being tracked-down and returned to Mexico.
Those folks who come here 'legally', pay their taxes, yes!

At the income levels we're talking about, sales tax is the primary form of taxation.

And if they're using a phony SS number to get work, the employer is deducting income tax. If the workers don't file a return because they'll get caught, they'll almost certainly overpay on the income taxes.

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Too many 'if's' there. Besides, who's checking all this? You never know... there might be an illegal out there using your SS number, too!


Chuck

[rickjump1 0]

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We are talking 'illegals', aren't we? They seem to be the one's who don't want to assimilate. They seem to be the one's who don't want to learn our language and stay amongst their own... where they feel safe.......................

Chuck

They feel safe enough to murder American citizens and then cross back into their country knowing they will not be extradited.

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[masterrig 1]

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We are talking 'illegals', aren't we? They seem to be the one's who don't want to assimilate. They seem to be the one's who don't want to learn our language and stay amongst their own... where they feel safe.......................

Chuck

They feel safe enough to murder American citizens and then cross back into their country knowing they will not be extradited.

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That's been happening too. They also like to shoot at our folks from their side of the Rio Grande. Many of them join gangs, when they get here. It's all been on the news and in newspapers. Here in West Texas, illegals are breaking into rancher's homes and out buildings not just once but several times. Stealing anything that isn't welded down. Not being able to control who comes to this country, brings problems of various kinds.


Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

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The illegals pay 'sales tax'. They don't pay Federal income Tax because they fear being tracked-down and returned to Mexico.
Those folks who come here 'legally', pay their taxes, yes!

At the income levels we're talking about, sales tax is the primary form of taxation.

And if they're using a phony SS number to get work, the employer is deducting income tax. If the workers don't file a return because they'll get caught, they'll almost certainly overpay on the income taxes.

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Too many 'if's' there. Besides, who's checking all this? You never know... there might be an illegal out there using your SS number, too!

Not really, Chuck. The ifs just mean they're paying more taxes than normal. Otherwise, they're paying about the same as others in their income bracket.

Anyone using my SS number must be very stealthy about it.

[masterrig 1]

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The illegals pay 'sales tax'. They don't pay Federal income Tax because they fear being tracked-down and returned to Mexico.
Those folks who come here 'legally', pay their taxes, yes!

At the income levels we're talking about, sales tax is the primary form of taxation.

And if they're using a phony SS number to get work, the employer is deducting income tax. If the workers don't file a return because they'll get caught, they'll almost certainly overpay on the income taxes.

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Too many 'if's' there. Besides, who's checking all this? You never know... there might be an illegal out there using your SS number, too!

Not really, Chuck. The ifs just mean they're paying more taxes than normal. Otherwise, they're paying about the same as others in their income bracket.

Anyone using my SS number must be very stealthy about it.

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I gotcha now! I appreciate your clarifying that for me. All in all, it's a real big mess and I doubt, we'll ever correct it. It's just gone too far too long. I'm anxious to see the out-come of the Senate on their final darft of the bill they are working on.
Hell! For that matter, there might be an illegal using my SS number!


Chuck


Chuck

[tbrown 26]

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why are the people waving the flags of the countries that they left while protesting to become americans. shouldn't they be waving american flags? i mean if you want amnesty and the rights and benefits of being an american, it would make sense to wave the american flag, wouldn't it?

Maybe they just want to be here and never really become an American.

Maybe they want to take it back.

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[masterrig 1]

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why are the people waving the flags of the countries that they left while protesting to become americans. shouldn't they be waving american flags? i mean if you want amnesty and the rights and benefits of being an american, it would make sense to wave the american flag, wouldn't it?

Maybe they just want to be here and never really become an American.

Maybe they want to take it back.

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The way we're selling our nation to foreign investors, it could get pretty weird!


Chuck

[mnealtx 0]

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Not really, Chuck. The ifs just mean they're paying more taxes than normal. Otherwise, they're paying about the same as others in their income bracket.

That's making the presumption that they are getting "normal" payroll done, and not just being paid 'under the table'.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

we're going in circles here.

again, if they're getting paid under the table, we're not talking big bucks. The first $8200 is untaxed even if you're playing by the rules. And you only earn SS and Medicare by paying into the system a minimum number of credits.

[mnealtx 0]

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we're going in circles here.

again, if they're getting paid under the table, we're not talking big bucks. The first $8200 is untaxed even if you're playing by the rules. And you only earn SS and Medicare by paying into the system a minimum number of credits.

True - but there are a number of employers that do exactly that (in regards to paying under the table) because then they don't have to pay out unemployment insurance, income tax or anything else.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[masterrig 1]

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we're going in circles here.

again, if they're getting paid under the table, we're not talking big bucks. The first $8200 is untaxed even if you're playing by the rules. And you only earn SS and Medicare by paying into the system a minimum number of credits.

True - but there are a number of employers that do exactly that (in regards to paying under the table) because then they don't have to pay out unemployment insurance, income tax or anything else.

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Exactly!


Chuck

[kelpdiver 2]

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True - but there are a number of employers that do exactly that (in regards to paying under the table) because then they don't have to pay out unemployment insurance, income tax or anything else.

I can't blame the workers for that one.

[kallend 1,671]

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we're going in circles here.

again, if they're getting paid under the table, we're not talking big bucks. The first $8200 is untaxed even if you're playing by the rules. And you only earn SS and Medicare by paying into the system a minimum number of credits.

True - but there are a number of employers that do exactly that (in regards to paying under the table) because then they don't have to pay out unemployment insurance, income tax or anything else.

Severe penalties for such employers, penalties that actually hurt, would remove the incentive for the illegals to come in the first place.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rickjump1 0]

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why are the people waving the flags of the countries that they left while protesting to become americans. shouldn't they be waving american flags? i mean if you want amnesty and the rights and benefits of being an american, it would make sense to wave the american flag, wouldn't it?

Maybe they just want to be here and never really become an American.

Maybe they want to take it back.

I'm sure that's on their mind. How much do you think we should let them have (starting with LA)?

Do your part for global warming: ban beans and hold all popcorn farts.

[mnealtx 0]

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we're going in circles here.

again, if they're getting paid under the table, we're not talking big bucks. The first $8200 is untaxed even if you're playing by the rules. And you only earn SS and Medicare by paying into the system a minimum number of credits.

True - but there are a number of employers that do exactly that (in regards to paying under the table) because then they don't have to pay out unemployment insurance, income tax or anything else.

Severe penalties for such employers, penalties that actually hurt, would remove the incentive for the illegals to come in the first place.

Severe penalties for the immigrants (permanent disbarment from ever getting citizenship, maybe?) *AND* for the employers was more my though.

Penalize both sides of the equation and there will be a lot more success, I think.... which was the general point of my answer to kelpdiver.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[kelpdiver 2]

you can penalize the workers if it gives you a warm fuzzy feeling, but it won't do anything to deter them. People get caught and sent back over the border repeatedly. They have nothing to lose.

There are far fewer people on the employer side, and best yet, you can fine them real money. (if that's what you really want - Republican and Democrat governors alike in California have found ways to ignore the large illegal migrant farmer population)