China: Baby Steps...

[Trent 0]

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/03/14/china.latinamerica.ap/index.html
WASHINGTON (AP) -- China is training increasing numbers of Latin American military personnel, taking advantage of a three-year old U.S. law that has led to a sharp decline in U.S.-run training programs for the region, an Army general said Tuesday. ...

Remember we were talking about how you could tell who was in bed with whom a few days ago...

Can someone make an excuse as to why the Iran/Iraq/N.Korea supporting Chinese have an interest in training soldiers for the nouveau lefty wackos in South America?

I wonder if it'll eventually be a "Cuban Missile Crisis" all over again... except the Chinese missiles will be in Venezuela, Cuba, Bolivia... and wherever else idiots are on the rise.

I know a lot of people like to beleive that the US is the imperialistic, conspiracy riddled bad-guy of the world... you people have no idea...

Oh, hello again!

[Channman 2]

> I know a lot of people like to beleive that the US is the imperialistic, conspiracy riddled bad-guy of the world... you people have no idea...

Trent, this hopefully will be a far better topic than many of the current topics on SC.

[billvon 2,478]

>Trent, this hopefully will be a far better topic than many of the current topics on SC.

Right. Instead of just bashing one side or the other, it's a more intelligent question concerning the evil lefty wackos. Add in someone claiming that right wingers are all fascists and we will have a scholarly debate worthy of a political seminar.

However, on the off chance that that was a serious question:

>Can someone make an excuse as to why the Iran/Iraq/N.Korea
> supporting Chinese have an interest in training soldiers for the
> nouveau lefty wackos in South America?

Same reason we support the warlord in Pakistan and the torturers of Uzbekistan - because it is to our strategic advantage to do so. China can see the same sorts of threats we can, and can take appropriate action as well.

[SkyDekker 1,155]

Since it is a three year old law, it is obviously Bush's fault, and Clinton got a blowjob.

Now that we have that out of the way:

I have been saying for quite some time, that while Bush has all of you focussing on his little pet project in the middle east...the far east is gaining incredible power. While your economy is cratering and defecits are surging, their economy is booming. China will be the next super power.

This all leads to an interesting question. Does that mean that communism is a better system than capitalism?

[billvon 2,478]

>Does that mean that communism is a better system than capitalism?

China isn't purely communist any more. They (like the US) have learned that a hybrid of systems is a better choice. Thus the tremendous amount of western development in China, and the rapid increase in personal wealth.

[briguy 0]

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While your economy is cratering and defecits are surging, their economy is booming. China will be the next super power.

the only way to stop this is to stop buying your crap at wal-mart.

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[SkyDekker 1,155]

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China isn't purely communist any more. They (like the US) have learned that a hybrid of systems is a better choice. Thus the tremendous amount of western development in China, and the rapid increase in personal wealth

Exactly, one leans towards communism and the other leans towards capitalism, both are hybrid models. Still the question stands.

[akarunway 1]

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While your economy is cratering and defecits are surging, their economy is booming. China will be the next super power.

the only way to stop this is to stop buying your crap at wal-mart.

Thank you very much_____________________________________________ I sneak in there once in awhile in a rare emergency but if my union brothers caught me they'd string me up__________________________________________

I hold it true, whate'er befall;
I feel it, when I sorrow most;
'Tis better to have loved and lost
Than never to have loved at all.

[Richards 0]

The West needs to start paying more attention to it's own backyard. We send all our foreign aid overseas to Asia , Africa, and the Middles East while on our homefront Mexico (Our immediate neighbor) is a third world nation. When one thinks of the foreign aid we send to Africa, the middle east (who have enough oil to afford to feed their own damn people), North Korea (who despite inability to feed their own people can afford nuclear weapons), imagine if we tried cutting it back and amalgamating it into aid to Mexico for the purposes of develoment. To send aid overseas when our own neighbors are so desperately poor is reprehensible. Furthermore if the mexican infrastructure and economy were built up to the point where they were not at a third world level, we would no longer need to obsess about illegal immigration, since Mexicans could live well in Mexico.

I am more of a regionalist and therefore I feel that our primary aid recipient should be our own continent (Mexico). If we can help Mexico attain self sustinence then our next logical choice of aid (not exploitation) would be central america, and the carribean (next time anyone is in Jamaica step off the club med property and look at how many people live in tin shacks with no electricity or running water).

It would seem that our moral obligations should be the nations closest to us. If we do not offer to show interest in them someone else will as the soviets did in Cuba. If you think it is scary to have Cuba as communists, or China supporting Brazil, imagine Mexico becoming a socialist state sponsored by China (not unrealistic when you have a poverty ridden nation next to the richest nation in the world).

I realize that my idea must clearly have glaring oversites on my part, and I welcome all inputs on this. But the idea of China supporting latin-american countries should serve as a bit of a wake-up call, and entice us to show real support for our immediate neighbors.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Trent 0]

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Right. Instead of just bashing one side or the other, it's a more intelligent question concerning the evil lefty wackos. Add in someone claiming that right wingers are all fascists and we will have a scholarly debate worthy of a political seminar.

However, on the off chance that that was a serious question:

What a BS response. Is it your position that the leaders of Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, and all the other "populist rising" countries aren't some kind of lefty wackos? Really? No, really? You don't read enough or apparently talk to people from the area much. But hey, I said "left" so by all means... be offended first.

Yes it was a serious question, and....

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Same reason we support the warlord in Pakistan and the torturers of Uzbekistan - because it is to our strategic advantage to do so. China can see the same sorts of threats we can, and can take appropriate action as well.

... isn't really a good answer to it. Are we helping Pakistan because it's near China or because a lot of the "bad-guys" are there? Are the Chinese concerned with crazy Venezuelans and Cubans blowing shit up in their country? Are they fighting some war with them? No? Oh... so then what's their motivation ya think?

Oh, hello again!

[billvon 2,478]

> isn't really a good answer to it. Are we helping Pakistand because it's
> near China or because a lot of the "bad-guys" are there?

We are helping them because it is near a region we want more influence in (the Middle East.) Looks like China wants more influence near us.

>Are the Chinese concerned with crazy Venezuelans and Cubans blowing
>shit up in their country?

So you're saying that the North Koreans and the Vietnamese were blowing shit up in our country when we supported their neighbors? Try again.

[Trent 0]

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Since it is a three year old law, it is obviously Bush's fault, and Clinton got a blowjob.

The last 3 presidents have had reprehensible BS policies on Asia... I blame them all.

I've ALWAYS said that we're not paying attention to what we should be... I agree also with the helping out of our neighbors first... then the rest of the world. We'd BETTER start paying attention.

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This all leads to an interesting question. Does that mean that communism is a better system than capitalism?

Nah, it'd be tied if it happens... capitalism 1, communism 1.

Oh, hello again!

[Trent 0]

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We are helping them because it is near a region we want more influence in (the Middle East.) Looks like China wants more influence near us.

Exactly my point... except you think that we want influence in the middle east to be close to China?

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So you're saying that the North Koreans and the Vietnamese were blowing shit up in our country when we supported their neighbors? Try again.

Were Vietnam and Korea strong communist states that we went into to turn them capitalist democracies... or were they democracies facing a rise of communist revolutionaries?

Have the South American countries been strong communist states that are suddenly threatened by our capitalist ways?? Or is it that they were democratic countries that are NOW slowly being turned to communism/dictatorship with the help of the Chinese.

I don't expect you to see the difference or acknowledge the point. But it's there.

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So you're saying that ...

If you don't understand what I'm saying, just ask instead of making something up that makes you look like you might have a decent argument.

Oh, hello again!

[Channman 2]

> What a BS response. Is it your position that the leaders of Cuba, Venezuela, Bolivia, and all the other "populist rising" countries aren't some kind of lefty wackos? Really? No, really? You don't read enough or apparently talk to people from the area much. But hey, I said "left" so by all means... be offended first.

I'm just now getting back to this tread, Damn we're off to a firey start. There seems to be some very strong oppinions out there, its so far a good read.

Billvon, WOW, you really got this thing going, good job.

[billvon 2,478]

>except you think that we want influence in the middle east to be
>close to China?

Nope. We have currently declared much of the Middle East to be our enemy, so that's where we want the influence. We're giving China a pass currently. They, on the other hand, are more worried about us, with our new penchant for 'pre-emptive invasion.' I think if you were in China you'd be worried about the US, too.

>Were Vietnam and Korea strong communist states that we went into
> to turn them capitalist democracies... or were they democracies
> facing a rise of communist revolutionaries?

The answer to that question depends on which side of the issue you were on. Sort of like - "contras - brave revolutionaries or terrorists?"

But in any case, the answer isn't important. We went into those places because we wanted to influence the development of that area. Rhetoric aside, the goal was a western-friendly nation near a communist one. Now China wants communist-friendly nations near western ones. No suprise there.

[Trent 0]

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Now China wants communist-friendly nations near western ones. No suprise there.

And we'd better wake the fuck up... yes, that includes Bush and the current admin who are seemingly doing NOTHING about it.

Oh, hello again!

[Frenchy68 0]

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Now China wants communist-friendly nations near western ones. No suprise there.

And we'd better wake the fuck up... yes, that includes Bush and the current admin who are seemingly doing NOTHING about it.

Actually, considering how many times Bush has visited China since first elected (3 times I believe), I would hardly say his administration is not paying attention to China. The thing is, China has very little imperialistic intentions militarily. However, it undestands its current and potential economic power, and knows that it is on a (hopefully peaceful) clash course with the US. Strengthening enemies of your rivals is a very old way to deflect attention and fight a proxy war. All countries have used this tactic and still do. Nothing new here. I doubt the US supprted Taiwan since 1949 because of its democratic values...

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Trent 0]

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Actually, considering how many times Bush has visited China since first elected (3 times I believe), I would hardly say his administration is not paying attention to China.

Paying attention to the country is not necessarily paying attention to the situation they're putting us in.

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The thing is, China has very little imperialistic intentions militarily.

But having a 2 million man army doesn't hurt, does it?

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I doubt the US supprted Taiwan since 1949 because of its democratic values...

Actually, at the time... it was just another FU to the communists that had taken over China. China wasn't on the verge of being a superpower yet.

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Strengthening enemies of your rivals is a very old way to deflect attention and fight a proxy war.

Then we'd better start playing too...

Oh, hello again!