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rushmc 18
QuoteQuote
Why is it that any good news is meet with a subtle or not so subtle jab?
Why is any bad news the truth and others are a dummy if they question it?
Normally this occures when you are close minded.
Just a thought.
First I responded to Kallend because no matter what others may say he can make a very good point when he wants to but mainly because although I know I can't change his mind about anything he needs to know that someone reads his post.
I've just read this entire thread (I've got to get a life) some of the people that have posted I have a very high reguards for....some I don't know at all.
This issue just cuts right down the middle of right and left and NOBODY seems to be able to even start to listen to any other ideas. "Bush is great", "Bush is terrible"
Hell I can't even tell who's trolling and who's for real.
Any goods news is b.s and any bad news is b.s.
The country is going to hell in a hand basket and it isn't Bush's fault. It's our fault. There is no middle ground anymore on any topic.
"It's the rights fault", "It's the left's fault"
It was "We the people" now it's "Us against them"
Right
I want to have a machine gun at my house, no taxes, no welfare, and no abortions, Bush is God.
Left
No guns, the goverment can fix any problem if they have enough money to spend, and abortion on demand is a god given right, Bush is Hitler.
We can't get shit done in this country - and it's getting worse - because the media and our on inability to concede anything.
I realize that for many the only point of these comments is to stir up other people. That's okay, but when people like Bill feel so passionately about a subject (or Kallend) but basically offer no real solutions - other than to bash Bush it really worries me.
I have three young children, if things keep going the way they are, what kind of country will they live in?
Sorry for the rant, I haven't jumped since WT.
Dam, this post is very interesting (to me anyway) A couple of your main points hit some major right ons
If I were to put my high level beliefs they would be,
1) I don't agree with Bush's fiscal history
2) I do agree with his foreign policy and Iraq
3) Bush and Repulicans were "elected" so they have earned the right to push thier agenda but
4) not without honest debate
5) The left does not debate honestly because they
6) appear to try and only destroy Bush because they want power back
7)regardless of how it hurts the country
8) The left has said all Republican Presidents are dumb (why, only because they cannot understand how anyone with any inteligence can not agree with them.
9) The right does not think that way.
10) Republicans have never tryed to starve kids or put old people out on the streets so
11) It is the left that uses fear tactics
12) I do not agree with National Health Care or the Supreem Court making rulings that (a) create rights and (b) take power away from the states
13)When a Democratic President does something it is necessary
14) When a Republican President does the same thing he broke the law
15) The line item veto is a bad idea because the budget is the responcibility of the congress. If they screw it up they should fix it so the President should veto the whole bill
16)The left thinks they have the right to be in power and anybody that does not agree with them is called stupid, blind ect ect ect
17)How can Bush be accused of lieing about the war and WMDs when everybody else that ever talked about Iraq said the same thing many years before anybody even knew who GWB was
18) SD did have WMD up to the start of the war and they have been moved to Syria
19) The main stream media distorts the news to help get thier left friends back in power
20) The alternative media and the web confound the main stream media (cause they no longer can single handedly form public opinion as they did during Vietnam (and I am not saying Vietnam was right but I do know if the politicians would have let the militay do what the do, the end would have been very very different
21) the left hates the military
Maybe this will let you and others know what motivates me
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
That line there wasn't the point, the point was how easy it is to say so and so does this, when the other side does it the same amount, if not more.
I never said he was my hero. In my opinion, better than the other options, but so what, we don't need to agree on that, do we?
Yeah, I actually do have to follow orders b/c it's part of my job. So you bet wrong pal. Some people have a higher sense of purpose than self, and doing something b/c I believe it's right or b/c my boss believes it's right is good enough for me. I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks about it. You can think it's terribly wrong, good for you. I'm still going to go out and do my job.
Quotebut still your hero somehow i imagine..
I never said he was my hero. In my opinion, better than the other options, but so what, we don't need to agree on that, do we?
Quotecare to follow him into a minefield? take his orders in a fire fight?
i'll bet not.. people tend to pick more competent leaders when their lives are directly at stake....
Yeah, I actually do have to follow orders b/c it's part of my job. So you bet wrong pal. Some people have a higher sense of purpose than self, and doing something b/c I believe it's right or b/c my boss believes it's right is good enough for me. I really don't care what you or anyone else thinks about it. You can think it's terribly wrong, good for you. I'm still going to go out and do my job.
QuoteQuoteQuoteThere was supposedly an article from a Dutch news outlet that went to GITMO and they did a comparison to their own prisons. (again, I have been looking for the article can anyone help)
They stated that the civilan prisons over there were worse than GITMO
If this was reported, why didn't the US media pick it up?
Remember, my original post was more aimed at the media....
I don't think its the conditions as much as the incarceration without trial which is the issue in GITMO. Even Tim McVeigh was caught and put on trial within a two year period. I used Mc Veigh as an example of a terrorist who attacked the USA directly and who was dealt with quickly. Many detainees in GITMO have been held without charge let alone trial for 4 years. If the US is serious about holding and dealing with these guys within international expectations and if it is so sure that these guys are threats to the US or other countries then it should have nothing to fear about putting them on trial.
Not the same.....I don't agree
Why don't you agree?
rushmc 18
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThere was supposedly an article from a Dutch news outlet that went to GITMO and they did a comparison to their own prisons. (again, I have been looking for the article can anyone help)
They stated that the civilan prisons over there were worse than GITMO
If this was reported, why didn't the US media pick it up?
Remember, my original post was more aimed at the media....
I don't think its the conditions as much as the incarceration without trial which is the issue in GITMO. Even Tim McVeigh was caught and put on trial within a two year period. I used Mc Veigh as an example of a terrorist who attacked the USA directly and who was dealt with quickly. Many detainees in GITMO have been held without charge let alone trial for 4 years. If the US is serious about holding and dealing with these guys within international expectations and if it is so sure that these guys are threats to the US or other countries then it should have nothing to fear about putting them on trial.
Not the same.....I don't agree
Why don't you agree?
Those in GITMO chose to be un-uniformed combatants even as defined by the Geneva Convention (I believe) They are prisoners of war, not criminals.
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
kallend 1,678
QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteThere was supposedly an article from a Dutch news outlet that went to GITMO and they did a comparison to their own prisons. (again, I have been looking for the article can anyone help)
They stated that the civilan prisons over there were worse than GITMO
If this was reported, why didn't the US media pick it up?
Remember, my original post was more aimed at the media....
I don't think its the conditions as much as the incarceration without trial which is the issue in GITMO. Even Tim McVeigh was caught and put on trial within a two year period. I used Mc Veigh as an example of a terrorist who attacked the USA directly and who was dealt with quickly. Many detainees in GITMO have been held without charge let alone trial for 4 years. If the US is serious about holding and dealing with these guys within international expectations and if it is so sure that these guys are threats to the US or other countries then it should have nothing to fear about putting them on trial.
Not the same.....I don't agree
Why don't you agree?
Those in GITMO chose to be un-uniformed combatants even as defined by the Geneva Convention (I believe) They are prisoners of war, not criminals.
What proof is there of that, without some kind of trial? You just accept it on faith.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mnealtx 0
Quote
rushmc said:
Those in GITMO chose to be un-uniformed combatants even as defined by the Geneva Convention (I believe) They are prisoners of war, not criminals.
Actually, Rush, you've got it backwards - Illegal combatants are not prisoners of war, and so have no protections under the Geneva Conventions.
Quote
From the wikipedia definition of "combatant":
A combatant (also referred to as an enemy combatant) is a soldier or guerrilla member who is waging war.
Under the Geneva Conventions, persons waging war must have the following four characteristics to be protected by the laws of war:
1. In uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance.
2. Openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them.
3. Under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government.
4. Fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism.
A combatant who has surrendered or been captured becomes a prisoner of war.
Quote
The Prof said:
What proof is there of that, without some kind of trial? You just accept it on faith.
As above.... however, that does not prevent them from being tried in civil court. IMO, there should be at least a list of charges against the detainees, if nothing else.
I have no problem with delaying a trial in order to gather further evidence - it's a reasonably common occurence, from what I understand. Multiple year waits seem excessive until you look at appeal trials, which can take years to accrue evidence.
Before anyone jumps on the bashing bandwagon, I do not say that I *agree* with the situation in Gitmo, just that I can envision valid reasons for the delay.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
kallend 1,678
www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/3701571.html
When forced to release "evidence", the Pentagon's "evidence" often appears very flimsy. No wonder Bush wants it kept secret.
When forced to release "evidence", the Pentagon's "evidence" often appears very flimsy. No wonder Bush wants it kept secret.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
mnealtx 0
Quotewww.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/3701571.html
When forced to release "evidence", the Pentagon's "evidence" often appears very flimsy. No wonder Bush wants it kept secret.
And your point is what? I've never said that all the Gitmo detainees were captured on the battlefield. In point of fact, I don't think *ANYONE* has said that all the detainees are confirmed AQ fighters.
Did the thought ever occur that some of the detainees may be information sources? Of course, you ignore that fact, since it doesn't fit your agenda.
Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706
kallend 1,678
QuoteQuotewww.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/world/3701571.html
When forced to release "evidence", the Pentagon's "evidence" often appears very flimsy. No wonder Bush wants it kept secret.
And your point is what? I've never said that all the Gitmo detainees were captured on the battlefield. In point of fact, I don't think *ANYONE* has said that all the detainees are confirmed AQ fighters.
Did the thought ever occur that some of the detainees may be information sources? Of course, you ignore that fact, since it doesn't fit your agenda.
I guess you made my point. Without a hearing there is NO PROOF that these detainees are illegal combatants or PsOW.
By what concept of US or international law is it legal to detain "maybe information sources" indefinitely? These people are entitled to knowing the evidence against them and to a hearing.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Channman 2
> I don't think its the conditions as much as the incarceration without trial which is the issue in GITMO. Even Tim McVeigh was caught and put on trial within a two year period. I used Mc Veigh as an example of a terrorist who attacked the USA directly and who was dealt with quickly. Many detainees in GITMO have been held without charge let alone trial for 4 years. If the US is serious about holding and dealing with these guys within international expectations and if it is so sure that these guys are threats to the US or other countries then it should have nothing to fear about putting them on trial.
Many of these detainees have been there for 4 years because they do not wish to be returned to their country of origin due to a fear of imprisionment with torture, death, and family members facing imprisionment, torture or death.
The US has been working with other countries to see if they will provide safe harbor for these men, so far there have be few takers.
Therefore they have not been released from Gitmo until there are assurances that when released into their countries hands they want disappear from the face of the earth.
Many of these detainees have been there for 4 years because they do not wish to be returned to their country of origin due to a fear of imprisionment with torture, death, and family members facing imprisionment, torture or death.
The US has been working with other countries to see if they will provide safe harbor for these men, so far there have be few takers.
Therefore they have not been released from Gitmo until there are assurances that when released into their countries hands they want disappear from the face of the earth.
kallend 1,678
Quote> I don't think its the conditions as much as the incarceration without trial which is the issue in GITMO. Even Tim McVeigh was caught and put on trial within a two year period. I used Mc Veigh as an example of a terrorist who attacked the USA directly and who was dealt with quickly. Many detainees in GITMO have been held without charge let alone trial for 4 years. If the US is serious about holding and dealing with these guys within international expectations and if it is so sure that these guys are threats to the US or other countries then it should have nothing to fear about putting them on trial.
Many of these detainees have been there for 4 years because they do not wish to be returned to their country of origin due to a fear of imprisionment with torture, death, and family members facing imprisionment, torture or death.
The US has been working with other countries to see if they will provide safe harbor for these men, so far there have be few takers.
Therefore they have not been released from Gitmo until there are assurances that when released into their countries hands they want disappear from the face of the earth.
So you are arguing now that Gitmo is a refugee camp whose inmates are there voluntarily.
Cute. Very Orwellian.
...
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.
Quote5) The left does not debate honestly because they
6) appear to try and only destroy Bush because they want power back
7)regardless of how it hurts the country
Granted, I'll even help you out with that point -- Hillary using the "plantation" word not too long ago in Harlem. But in writing the above, are you absolving the Republicans of the same kind of dishonest debating tactics when the tables are turned? If so, I call BULLSH.T.
Quote11) It is the left that uses fear tactics
Again, as if the right does NOT? How do you think your president got re-elected? Remember the campaign ad with the wolves in it? Constant ad-nauseum references to 911? Is that any different, let alone ten times more blatant, obvious and more insulting to peoples' intelligence than the fear tactics of the Democrats?
QuoteI am not saying Vietnam was right but I do know if the politicians would have let the militay do what the do, the end would have been very very different
Can't deny that the same exact thing applies to this war. General Anthony Zinni[/url], Shinseki, etc. calling for more troops, Rumsfeld saying no, and now we have a fiasco with no end in sight. How the hell is this any different???
Quotethe left hates the military
Please, give me a break. Why does the left comprise many war veterans? And why is it a policy of the right to cut veterans benefits, let alone the fact that the right comprises so many war-dodging chickens?
QuoteSupreem Court....Repulicans....responcibility...militay...tryed...inteligence...
I mean NO OFFENSE by this Mr. Rush, but have you thought of giving the spell-checker a try? It makes for much easier reading.
Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.
Channman 2
No, I was only stating that there are several dozen detainees out of 500 plus that do not wish to be returned to their country.
To those few, Yes, Gitmo is a refuge, and the US is working with other nations to see if there are any takers that would provide asylum to these lost souls.
> Cute. Very Orwellian.
Kallend, come on, you need to lighten up some, all that stress can cause ones heart to fail.
Club Gitmo is truely a tropical retreat and has provided international terriroist a place of rest from the stress of jehad.
To those few, Yes, Gitmo is a refuge, and the US is working with other nations to see if there are any takers that would provide asylum to these lost souls.
> Cute. Very Orwellian.
Kallend, come on, you need to lighten up some, all that stress can cause ones heart to fail.
Club Gitmo is truely a tropical retreat and has provided international terriroist a place of rest from the stress of jehad.
FallRate 0
QuoteOnce again, we have right wingers in the government more concerned over winning the media war than in making any real change in Iraq. Who cares if over a thousand bodies showed up in Iraqi morgues over the past week? What's important is that we can get some sound bites to bolster the administration's claims that the war is going swell - and perhaps compare the 'liberal press' to Al Qaeda in the process.
"And the Award for Non-Sequitur of the Year goes to..."
FallRate
FallRate 0
QuoteThe actual words given to the president there were "america is under attack." And I think it's not a bad thing that he then sat in that classroom for 15 minutes. After all, leaving might make the kid reading sad. And in a crisis, do you really want Bush in charge? The guy that didn't know there was a difference between Sunnis and Shi'a before the Iraq war? The guy who thinks people in Mexico speak Mexican?
This criticism brought to you by a guy who refers to Iranians as Arab.
FallRate
rushmc 18
You say 911 adds were a fear tactic. I do not. It was and is the most important issue of the day.
I do not absolve the right of bad debate tactics. But the topics and technics are matter of degree.
The wars spoken of are not even close to being alike. You example is week if you look at the full debate.
Compromising the vetrans in not right. I give you that one but, on the other hand, just throwing money at any government run program is stupid.
I can't spell because of the feel good lefties in the education system (when I was in school) teaching the Whole Langage aproach to spelling. I am a mch beter speler than I usd to be....
I guess I just want to share my pain
I do not absolve the right of bad debate tactics. But the topics and technics are matter of degree.
The wars spoken of are not even close to being alike. You example is week if you look at the full debate.
Compromising the vetrans in not right. I give you that one but, on the other hand, just throwing money at any government run program is stupid.
I can't spell because of the feel good lefties in the education system (when I was in school) teaching the Whole Langage aproach to spelling. I am a mch beter speler than I usd to be....
I guess I just want to share my pain
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
funjumper101 15
Quote
I can't spell because of the feel good lefties in the education system (when I was in school) teaching the Whole Langage aproach to spelling. I am a mch beter speler than I usd to be....
I guess I just want to share my pain
Nice. A perfect example of Republican thinking.
I spell badly because I got a shitty education from the left and I choose to do little or nothing to overcome it. It ain't MY fault. It's the lefties fault. Whine, whine , whine
I thought that only lefties were allowed to blame their shortcomings on others. Righties are the ones that believe in personal responsibility. What am I missing here?
rushmc 18
QuoteQuote
I can't spell because of the feel good lefties in the education system (when I was in school) teaching the Whole Langage aproach to spelling. I am a mch beter speler than I usd to be....
I guess I just want to share my pain
Nice. A perfect example of Republican thinking.
I spell badly because I got a shitty education from the left and I choose to do little or nothing to overcome it. It ain't MY fault. It's the lefties fault. Whine, whine , whine
I thought that only lefties were allowed to blame their shortcomings on others. Righties are the ones that believe in personal responsibility. What am I missing here?
you missed it all!
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
Quote> I don't think its the conditions as much as the incarceration without trial which is the issue in GITMO. Even Tim McVeigh was caught and put on trial within a two year period. I used Mc Veigh as an example of a terrorist who attacked the USA directly and who was dealt with quickly. Many detainees in GITMO have been held without charge let alone trial for 4 years. If the US is serious about holding and dealing with these guys within international expectations and if it is so sure that these guys are threats to the US or other countries then it should have nothing to fear about putting them on trial.
Many of these detainees have been there for 4 years because they do not wish to be returned to their country of origin due to a fear of imprisionment with torture, death, and family members facing imprisionment, torture or death.
The US has been working with other countries to see if they will provide safe harbor for these men, so far there have be few takers.
Therefore they have not been released from Gitmo until there are assurances that when released into their countries hands they want disappear from the face of the earth.
The three British detainees brought back to the UK were released without charge or trial as soon as they arrived back. Presumably the British Police keep tabs on them but the main point is that despite 4 years of 'intelliegnce' gathering no charges were brought against them here or in the USA.
billvon 2,470
.thumb.jpg.4bb795e2eaf21b8b300039a5e1ec7f92.jpg)
>Those in GITMO chose to be un-uniformed combatants even as
> defined by the Geneva Convention (I believe) They are prisoners of
> war, not criminals.
Then they should be subject to the Geneva convention rules on treatment of prisoners of war.
> defined by the Geneva Convention (I believe) They are prisoners of
> war, not criminals.
Then they should be subject to the Geneva convention rules on treatment of prisoners of war.
rushmc 18
Quote>Those in GITMO chose to be un-uniformed combatants even as
> defined by the Geneva Convention (I believe) They are prisoners of
> war, not criminals.
Then they should be subject to the Geneva convention rules on treatment of prisoners of war.
and they have been
"America will never be destroyed from the outside,
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
if we falter and lose our freedoms,
it will be because we destroyed ourselves."
Abraham Lincoln
billvon 2,470
>and they have been
A summary from Infoplease:
-----------------------------
According to the Geneva Convention no prisoner of war could be forced to disclose to his captor any information other than his identity (i.e., his name and rank, but not his military unit, home town, or address of relatives). Every prisoner of war was entitled to adequate food and medical care and had the right to exchange correspondence and receive parcels. He was required to observe ordinary military discipline and courtesy, but he could attempt to escape at his own risk. Once recaptured, he was not to be punished for his attempt. Officers were to receive pay either according to the pay scale of their own country or to that of their captor, whichever was less; they could not be required to work. Enlisted men might be required to work for pay, but the nature and location of their work were not to expose them to danger, and in no case could they be required to perform work directly related to military operations. Camps were to be open to inspection by authorized representatives of a neutral power.
----------------------------
So where do you figure "torturing people for information" fits in there? (Sorry, I know the GOP doesn't use words like "lie" or "torture" any more - but even you must admit that we use coercive techniques to obtain intelligence from prisoners.)
And given that we have secret military prisons that we don't tell anyone about, how does the inspection thing fit in?
(This is where you claim they're not really prisoners of war, they're unlawful combatants or something.)
A summary from Infoplease:
-----------------------------
According to the Geneva Convention no prisoner of war could be forced to disclose to his captor any information other than his identity (i.e., his name and rank, but not his military unit, home town, or address of relatives). Every prisoner of war was entitled to adequate food and medical care and had the right to exchange correspondence and receive parcels. He was required to observe ordinary military discipline and courtesy, but he could attempt to escape at his own risk. Once recaptured, he was not to be punished for his attempt. Officers were to receive pay either according to the pay scale of their own country or to that of their captor, whichever was less; they could not be required to work. Enlisted men might be required to work for pay, but the nature and location of their work were not to expose them to danger, and in no case could they be required to perform work directly related to military operations. Camps were to be open to inspection by authorized representatives of a neutral power.
----------------------------
So where do you figure "torturing people for information" fits in there? (Sorry, I know the GOP doesn't use words like "lie" or "torture" any more - but even you must admit that we use coercive techniques to obtain intelligence from prisoners.)
And given that we have secret military prisons that we don't tell anyone about, how does the inspection thing fit in?
(This is where you claim they're not really prisoners of war, they're unlawful combatants or something.)
First I responded to Kallend because no matter what others may say he can make a very good point when he wants to but mainly because although I know I can't change his mind about anything he needs to know that someone reads his post.
I've just read this entire thread (I've got to get a life) some of the people that have posted I have a very high reguards for....some I don't know at all.
This issue just cuts right down the middle of right and left and NOBODY seems to be able to even start to listen to any other ideas. "Bush is great", "Bush is terrible"
Hell I can't even tell who's trolling and who's for real.
Any goods news is b.s and any bad news is b.s.
The country is going to hell in a hand basket and it isn't Bush's fault. It's our fault. There is no middle ground anymore on any topic.
"It's the rights fault", "It's the left's fault"
It was "We the people" now it's "Us against them"
Right
I want to have a machine gun at my house, no taxes, no welfare, and no abortions, Bush is God.
Left
No guns, the goverment can fix any problem if they have enough money to spend, and abortion on demand is a god given right, Bush is Hitler.
We can't get shit done in this country - and it's getting worse - because the media and our on inability to concede anything.
I realize that for many the only point of these comments is to stir up other people. That's okay, but when people like Bill feel so passionately about a subject (or Kallend) but basically offer no real solutions - other than to bash Bush it really worries me.
I have three young children, if things keep going the way they are, what kind of country will they live in?
Sorry for the rant, I haven't jumped since WT.
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