peacefuljeffrey 0 #1 February 23, 2006 I mean, with guns banned, and robbery illegal, I just don't see how this fiasco was able to happen... --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #2 February 23, 2006 After all this couldn't happen in America could it? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #3 February 23, 2006 QuoteAfter all this couldn't happen in America could it? We're not the ones with a gun ban that we claimed would control crime. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
CornishChris 5 #4 February 23, 2006 You right Jeffrey. We should get rid of all laws because people will break them. A well thought out intelligent and socially responsible position if ever there was one. CJP Gods don't kill people. People with Gods kill people Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #5 February 23, 2006 Cool! What're ya gonna do first, Chris? --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #6 February 23, 2006 QuoteYou right Jeffrey. We should get rid of all laws because people will break them. A well thought out intelligent and socially responsible position if ever there was one. The claim was that gun control in England -- a gun BAN, actually, with criminally-mandated surrender of formerly legally owned guns -- was going to make England safe from gun crime. Now, years later, it's pretty clear that the experiment is a failure, and that criminals continue to get guns, just as they always have and always will, regardless of whether good, dutiful, obedient, law-abiding honest citizens turn theirs in to be destroyed. This really just proves that not much will be accomplished vis a vis crime control until we start addressing criminal behavior, not objects criminals might possess. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Adriandavies 0 #7 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteAfter all this couldn't happen in America could it? We're not the ones with a gun ban that we claimed would control crime. - ...and my point is that in a country where guns are legal armed robberies still take place. Innocent civilians can fight back yet robbers still take that risk in order to break the law. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #8 February 23, 2006 Ooo quick, something happened involving guns. Can I somehow use it to make a point!? Yeah why not! Do you really think a gun ban is going to stop hardcore offenders? Do you think our government ever believed it would stop hardcore offenders? No, but what it does stop is average Joe having a gun then having a row at a barbeque and in a drunk state shooting everyone. You know like the masses of gun related 'accidents' in the US. I suggest you never come here if you dont like it. Wind your neck in, its getting boring Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #9 February 23, 2006 QuoteThe claim was that gun control in England -- a gun BAN, actually, with criminally-mandated surrender of formerly legally owned guns -- was going to make England safe from gun crime. Who made that claim Jeffrey? Did anyone credible in the UK actually state that gun control was going to make England safe from gun crime, or are you just making stuff up again. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #10 February 23, 2006 Jeffrey is right! Even in that gun free fortress England one merely needs some money and you can get any kind of weapon you desire...or ID's or Uniforms, Police cars etc. for that matter the aforementioned can be accomplished anywhere in the world. Oh that's right ban criminals!!! maybe concentration camps for any legal firearm owners? Oh wait, skydivers have unique capabilities that would allow them to be infiltrated into any country! maybe you would be in favor of banning them too! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #11 February 23, 2006 hey scoop let me start by saying I realize you are probably great people. I have a friend who has been protecting your asses for 28 yrs now and he says it's nearly a lost cause due to criminal gangs and foreign infiltration due to lax immigration laws. Well I guess you may disagree with a Sergeant Major! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #12 February 23, 2006 Which has what to do with this incident? If this becomes a Britain bashing thread im liable to get very fucked off. Paticularly if its by people that dont actually live here and have to live by our rules Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #13 February 23, 2006 hey that wasn't the intent at all...I was pointing out that in England they have legislated away your rights of self defense therefore giving the criminally minded free reign to do as they please with only the cops and the military to deal with...usually after the fact. To me that's very sad, as England was once full of men with balls of steel that would never take that!I lived there at one time and nearly joined your military... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #14 February 23, 2006 QuoteI was pointing out that in England they have legislated away your rights of self defense therefore giving the criminally minded free reign to do as they please Well the criminal minded clearly don't have free reign in the UK. That kind of shits on your argument, don't you think? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Scoop 0 #15 February 23, 2006 Hehe, how things can come across different over the internet. Well, you are sadly mistaken as we have a common law power to defend ourselves. Believe it or not there is a legal defense to protect life and property. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,155 #16 February 23, 2006 I wonder on that night with that big heist...how many people got shot in the UK and how many people got shot in the US? Naturally as a percentage to make it all nice and even.... hey Jeffrey, your reasoning as about as flawed as...well I better not say it.....but, murder is illegal in the US...does that mean there are no more murders? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #17 February 23, 2006 QuoteDid anyone credible in the UK actually state that gun control was going to make England safe from gun crime No. Parliament was quite clear during its deliberations surrounding leading up to the 1997 legislation that their intentions were not to control the use of guns by criminals. It is a matter of parliamentary record that police estimates at the time were that only approximately 300 guns per year were making their way from legally held stores into criminals hands. The 1997 legislation was NOT intended to restrict the ability of criminals to obtain firearms. It was intended to restrict the ability of perfectly law abiding people obtaining firearms which they then might go on to turn on other members of the population. That wish is in itself questionable, but it is certainly not possible to attack the move as a failed attempt to control run-of-the-mill firearms offences. Such suggestion is an imaginary fantasy put about by anti-gun-control advocates in an attempt to show the 97 legislation as being unsuccessful at something it was never intended to control. It would be equally preposterous if the same advocates were to say that the 97 legislation had failed to control the spread of HIV in Sub-Saharan Africa. True… but then once again, that was never the intention of the legislation in the first place. Here I quote from Charles Clarke, Secretary of State for the Home Department answering Parliamentary Questions regarding the purpose of the 1997 legislation: The ban on handguns was a direct response to the tragic shootings at Dunblane Primary School in March 1996, which were carried out with legally held handguns. It did not purport to solve the more general problem of armed crime, the vast majority of which is carried out using illegally held firearms. The control of incidents such as this current robbery was NEVER part of the intention of Parliamnet during the drafting of the Firearms (Amendment) Act 1997. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #18 February 23, 2006 QuoteI was pointing out that in England they have legislated away your rights of self defense No they have not! UK self defence rights are still enshrined by the Criminal Law Act 1967 and are unchanged since then. That act in itself was merely the codification of earlier (and far older) Civil Law on self defence which was materially the same. In general terms, the UK legislation on self defence rights are far more un-favorable to the criminal than that to be found in many American States! For example; Florida has only recently removed the duty on the home owner to retreat before attacking - a duty which has never existed in the UK. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #19 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteAfter all this couldn't happen in America could it? We're not the ones with a gun ban that we claimed would control crime. - Yeah, you're the ones with the guns that claim you can control crime. Until that starts working on your side of the pond then you're hardly in a position to get on the high horse and claim that things smell of roses over there and shit over here. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,680 #20 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteAfter all this couldn't happen in America could it? We're not the ones with a gun ban that we claimed would control crime. - Yeah, you're the ones with the guns that claim you can control crime. Until that starts working on your side of the pond then you're hardly in a position to get on the high horse and claim that things smell of roses over there and shit over here. Homicide rate (per 100,000) the US is roughly 4x the UK rate (varies from year to year). Accidental shooting deaths: the US rate is roughly 30x the UK rate. Gun suicides: the US rate is roughly 20x the UK rate. Until the US figures match or are better than the UK figures, it seems to me that you and PJ are throwing stones from a glass house.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #21 February 23, 2006 http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v26n2/cpr-26n2-1.pdf http://www.opinion.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/main.jhtml?xml=/opinion/2004/10/31/do3102.xml&sSheet=/opinion/2004/10/31/ixopinion.html http://www.vdare.com/roberts/gun_control_part2.htm http://www.bsdgb.co.uk/index.php?Information:The_Law_Relating_to_Self_Defence http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2656875.stm As I read it the law in the UK states you do have a right to self defense but proving it was may be difficult in many cases. I stand corrected on legislating away the rights of self defense! I do stand by the fact they have limited the ways in which it shall be done(firearms ownership) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #22 February 23, 2006 John do you have references for that DATA? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #23 February 23, 2006 I would also like to see the data on how many of the firearms that were used in*illegal* shootings were legally owned vs. illegally posessed firearms. with references of course and the *brady campaign* ( they claim assualt weapons are legal to own and are not regulated...see http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalist/1932_uniform_machine_gun_act.txt under this misinformation the brady campaign/foundation has lacked credibilityhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Firearms_Act USDOJ would be a good source of data!(date sensitive of course) as to laws that were enacted have expired and the usage of the term assault weapon was a subjective term used by non firearms experts to illustrate look or appearance or the fact of functionality. NRA may be used within *reason(referenced material) as it is staffed by *law enforcement officials and *jurists that are known reliable sources when used with *reliable references to said data Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,680 #24 February 23, 2006 Quote USDOJ would be a good source of data! Bingo. You can also look up the FBI uniform crime report, Interpol's data, the UK Home Office reports... I got my numbers from polyticks.com You won't find much variation between sources, homicides and suicides have much the same definition everywhere and rarely go unreported.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dropoutdave 0 #25 February 23, 2006 QuoteQuoteQuoteQuoteAfter all this couldn't happen in America could it? We're not the ones with a gun ban that we claimed would control crime. - Yeah, you're the ones with the guns that claim you can control crime. Until that starts working on your side of the pond then you're hardly in a position to get on the high horse and claim that things smell of roses over there and shit over here. Homicide rate (per 100,000) the US is roughly 4x the UK rate (varies from year to year). Accidental shooting deaths: the US rate is roughly 30x the UK rate. Gun suicides: the US rate is roughly 20x the UK rate. Until the US figures match or are better than the UK figures, it seems to me that you and PJ are throwing stones from a glass house. Eh?? I'm confused. That's what I was trying to say John. That he was hardly in a position to say how bad things were over here with the way things are on his side of the pond? I agree with what you said, it's what I was trying to say, only you said it better. ------------------------------------------------------ May Contain Nut traces...... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
