Military to Dump M9

[mnealtx 0]

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BTW if you use 9mm +p+ ammo in a Sig Sauer p226 what you have is a 16 shot weapon that approximates the power of .357mag

And if you take a current 1911-model in 9mm or 38 Super and re-chamber it to 9x23 Winchester, you have a 10 shot weapon that equals the .357 Magnum without overstressing the frame/chamber...

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[warpedskydiver 0]

good one mike!!!

[Kennedy 0]

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you have a 10 shot weapon that equals the .357 Magnum without overstressing the frame/chamber...

Or there are always Glock, Sig, etc, weapons chambered for the .357 sig if semi-auto over-penetration is your thing...

Of course, then you can pick up a handy carbine that uses the same ammo as your side-arm. Same magazines in csome cases too.
(.357 sig actually makes use of the extra barrel, unlike so many others)

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[SpeedRacer 1]

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the AK47 is no better a weapon unless you are under 200 yards look up the ballistics if you don't believe me. If an AK47 chambered in 7.62x39 is zeroed @200yds the bullet drop @ 300yds is 13.5"
when you see people shooting an AK at our guys they had better be close because they will be engaged @500yds by a M16A2(preferably with an ACOG or similar) besides the AK will not penetrate 1/2" of hardened steel.
however if you want a great M16 get a 6.5mm grendel from www.alexanderarms.com it performs nearly as well as 7.62 out to 500yds and after that it actually performs better and is still supersonic @1200yds and actually is an excellent 1000yd weapon firing a 123grain lapua scenar bullet traveling @2600f/ps and thats a mild load... this would make any current 5.56mmx45 weapon much more effective and make a M249 SAW an equivalent of the M60 or M240 (FN MAG58) and much less weight which is wonderful given the current battle loadouts our guys are required to carry these days.

"Look, Ma! Gun Nerds!"

Speed Racer
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[steve1 5]

One big reason a 9mm or even the m-16 may seem puny is that steel jacketed bullets are required for military use. If soft points are used in the M-16 or if hollow points are loaded in the 9mm, then you could have a much more lethal weapon. So maybe a 45 is better for military use.

I remember a drug deal that went bad, and a policeman was shot through the chest with a 223 steel jacketed round. When he was taken to the hospital little damage was found. They put a bandage on the entrance and exit wound, and sent him home. He would probably have died if a soft point bullet had been used.

Our unit received some training once from some S.F. soldiers who had just returned from Vietnam. One told a story of how he carried a 9mm auto as a back up weapon. This was back before the army adopted beretas (so it might have been some other brand). At any rate he was walking guard duty one dark night within their base camp. He was packing his issue M-16 also. When out of nowhere an NVA soldier jumped in the trench he was standing in. For whatever reason the enemy soldier pointed the bayonet (on his A.K) at this soldier and prepared to run him through.

He said he still doesn't know why the guy didn't shoot him. Maybe they were making some kind of silent attack or something. But instead of using his M-16 he whipped out his little 9mm and shot the guy twice in the chest, and that was that. I imagine he might have also had to clean out his underwear shortly thereafter.

So I guess the 9mm hasn't always been too puny to get the job done.....Steve1

[sundevil777 93]

I think that many will be much more accurate with the 9mm because it kicks less/less intimidating to shoot. This is just reality of the ordinary user, not the very proficient and practiced. The old 30 cal military rifle cartridge also kicks enough that a lot of people were not very accurate with it, and the .308 wasn't even close to the most powerful 30 cal available.

How many of you have ever put a dead/dud round in with your ammo you take to the range? It is a good way to check if you are flinching. With less kick to be shy of, you are less likely to flinch and miss what you need to hit.

So, I think the average user will be better off with the greater accuracy. Of course this doesn't make the very proficient happy, but what are you gonna do?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[JohnRich 4]

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steel jacketed bullets are required for military use.

Don't you mean copper jacketed bullets?

Steel jacketed bullets shot through a steel barrel would be hell on wear and tear.

The military uses "ball" ammo, which means it's round-nosed, rather than hollow-point, as you mention.

[steve1 5]

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steel jacketed bullets are required for military use.

Don't you mean copper jacketed bullets?

Steel jacketed bullets shot through a steel barrel would be hell on wear and tear.

The military uses "ball" ammo, which means it's round-nosed, rather than hollow-point, as you mention.

You're right again, John...What was I thinking???...Steve1

[steve1 5]

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steel jacketed bullets are required for military use.

Don't you mean copper jacketed bullets?

Steel jacketed bullets shot through a steel barrel would be hell on wear and tear.

The military uses "ball" ammo, which means it's round-nosed, rather than hollow-point, as you mention.

Before I had the money for a good varmit rifle, I used my trusty 30/06 when calling coyotes. This was, of course, way too much gun for a mere coyote, and it was really hard on pelts if you used a soft point bullet. So, I ended up using military ammo with full metal jackets. Some coyotes I had to shoot more than once because these bullets were zipping right through without doing much damage. Some of these were armor piercing, others were standard Ball ammo, and even a few tracers were experimented with.

Finally, I bought a good 22-250 and started loading Hornady SX bullets. These would usually blow up inside with minimal pelt damage. But sometimes I'd hit a shoulder blade and have a huge hole to sew up. I've thought of using full metal jackets in this rifle too, but I've never been too impressed with the stopping power of that type of bullet....Steve1

[warpedskydiver 0]

The old 30 cal military rifle cartridge also kicks enough that a lot of people were not very accurate with it, and the .308 wasn't even close to the most powerful 30 cal available.



Dude are you referring to 30-06 vs. .308?

the size of the long range targets at camp perry were shrunk by half due to the accuracy of the 308 as for ballistics they are nearly identical check it out at any ammo manufacturers website.


as for people being "inaccurate" the problem is training.

the best solution is actually adopting 6.5mm grendel which is a true 1000 meter weapon and it is the same OAL as the 5.56x45mm which will work nicely in all our favorite weapons

check it out at www.alexanderarms.com

the best part is that our enemies will take a good while to learn that our M4s will have the punch of a .308 at long ranges since the mass of the bullet is twice that of the 5.56mm and its still supersonic @ 1200meters the basic thing is it pushes that round at only 2600f/ps @ the muzzle and doesn't slow down much due to it's BC @ .620 with a lapua scenar bullet and now there is a nosler ballistic tip for those "special" needs

as for the effieciency of the 6.5mm round just ask any scandanavian moose hanging on a wall in someones lodge.

[steve1 5]

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now there is a nosler ballistic tip for those "special" needs
.

I've been handloading the Nosler ballistic tip bullet for the past ten years or so. I love the accuracy that I can get with them, but have also had some failures with this bullet. I've been shooting a 130 grain bullets almost exclusively in my 270, and some of these loads are extremely fast. Over the years I've had three of the Nosler Ballistic tip bullets blow up on the shoulder blades of antelope. I mean they litterally blew up without entering the chest cavity. There was a huge hole on the entrance with little penetration.

I've recently bought some Nosler Accu-bond bullets that I hope to try. I've heard you can get the accuracy of a Ballistic tip with them, yet they will hold together for even bigger big game.

Years ago, I used to load the Nosler Partitian bullets for elk and even deer. Although they perform well they just won't group nearly as tight as a Nosler Ballistic Tip.

I've recently bought some Barnes triple-X bullets. They are supposed to be very accurate without blowing up on bone. I guess the bottom line is I just need to get out shooting, and test them out. I'd sure like to find a long range accurate bullet that won't fail on big game. In the past it was hard to find a bullet that would meet both needs. With todays technology this is changing....Steve1

[warpedskydiver 0]

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now there is a nosler ballistic tip for those "special" needs
.

I've been handloading the Nosler ballistic tip bullet for the past ten years or so. I love the accuracy that I can get with them, but have also had some failures with this bullet. I've been shooting a 130 grain bullets almost exclusively in my 270, and some of these loads are extremely fast. Over the years I've had three of the Nosler Ballistic tip bullets blow up on the shoulder blades of antelope. I mean they litterally blew up without entering the chest cavity. There was a huge hole on the entrance with little penetration.

I've recently bought some Nosler Accu-bond bullets that I hope to try. I've heard you can get the accuracy of a Ballistic tip with them, yet they will hold together for even bigger big game.

Years ago, I used to load the Nosler Partitian bullets for elk and even deer. Although they perform well they just won't group nearly as tight as a Nosler Ballistic Tip.

I've recently bought some Barnes triple-X bullets. They are supposed to be very accurate without blowing up on bone. I guess the bottom line is I just need to get out shooting, and test them out. I'd sure like to find a long range accurate bullet that won't fail on big game. In the past it was hard to find a bullet that would meet both needs. With todays technology this is changing....Steve1

I too use them in both .308 and .270 win

I think the problem is shot placement...I too noticed the bullet does not penetrate fully to the point of passing through ....but that is why I am using them it acts like a sledgehammer....@ 211yds a whitetail buck was taken at a full run broadside to me and he disappeared from the scope...because it drove him away from me so hard that when he landed he broke his shoulders....post mortem showed that the bullet had pierced the heart and stopped on the inside of the ribcage before piercing the opposing side.

Barnes X is an exellent choice

[JohnRich 4]

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@ 211yds a whitetail buck was taken at a full run broadside to me... post mortem showed that the bullet had pierced the heart...

Dayum - nice shot!

So how much lead did you hold for that shot?

Curious: how do you know the yardage so precisely?

[sundevil777 93]

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The old 30 cal military rifle cartridge also kicks enough that a lot of people were not very accurate with it, and the .308 wasn't even close to the most powerful 30 cal available.
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Dude are you referring to 30-06 vs. .308?

the size of the long range targets at camp perry were shrunk by half due to the accuracy of the 308 as for ballistics they are nearly identical check it out at any ammo manufacturers website.

as for people being "inaccurate" the problem is training.

the best solution is actually adopting 6.5mm grendel which is a true 1000 meter weapon and it is the same OAL as the 5.56x45mm which will work nicely in all our favorite weapons

check it out at www.alexanderarms.com

the best part is that our enemies will take a good while to learn that our M4s will have the punch of a .308 at long ranges since the mass of the bullet is twice that of the 5.56mm and its still supersonic @ 1200meters the basic thing is it pushes that round at only 2600f/ps @ the muzzle and doesn't slow down much due to it's BC @ .620 with a lapua scenar bullet and now there is a nosler ballistic tip for those "special" needs

as for the effieciency of the 6.5mm round just ask any scandanavian moose hanging on a wall in someones lodge.

My father was a very accomplished competitive target shooter back in his day. He also did all of his own reloading. I did a lot of target shooting for fun with him at the range north of Phoenix, which is a huge, world class range with distances out to 1000 yards. He had about a dozen rifles, some of them wildcats, among them: 222 remington, 22-250, a 250 donalson wasp (I think that was what it was called), some 270 cal, 6.5x55, 7mm-something, a 30-06 mauser, an an 8mm-something for knocking down metal targets. He also realized that the 30-06 and other more powerful cartridges didn't always mean better accuracy, ridiculing the guys that just had to use the most powerful 8mm or whatever was available at the time. So, I'm with you on that point. Another example is that the most successful elephant hunter long ago used a 7mm by choice.

Of course he kicked ass in army basic training, getting promoted on the first day of rifle practice to training others that didn't know anything about shooting. His comments to me were always that the ordinary guy, and the army is full of a lot of less than acomplished marksmen, will generally do better with a rifle that is not so powerful. Hitting the target must come first sort of thing...I will admit that I don't like to shoot a 30-06 compared to some of the smaller calibers because they are just, well, less intimidating. So I am just extending that conclusion to the .308, maybe it does have enough less powder that I shouldn't lump it into the 'intimidating' category, I never shot one.

Anyway, it is too bad that the more powerful handgun isn't available for those that want it, but I just wanted to say that the 9mm handgun may be more effective overall than a .45 cal.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[warpedskydiver 0]

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@ 211yds a whitetail buck was taken at a full run broadside to me... post mortem showed that the bullet had pierced the heart...

Dayum - nice shot!

So how much lead did you hold for that shot?

Curious: how do you know the yardage so precisely?

Paced it off and I am a surveyor... plus confirmed by a leica laser rangefinder I won $5.00

lead it by 1.5 body lengths that mother was hauling ass! lots to calculate incuding reaction time it is a subconscious thing and you need to "feel the shot"

trust instinct thinking takes too much time

plus i shot 3 times...

1st shot another guy a long way away shot just as i squeezed the trigger the buck bounded i saw my bullet hit the mud

2nd shot somehow he bounded just as the bullet arrived...went under mud flew

3rd shot he went down....

all this happend very very fast

if i had to guess he was moving at 40mph or so

[warpedskydiver 0]

info on the rifle used

FN/FAL firing nosler ballistic tips IMR4896 @2800fps

Frankenstein gun so I didn't mind painting it camo

trigger job, fire lapped barrel, tapered bore moly coated , 2.5-10x-42mm scope mildots

[steve1 5]

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His comments to me were always that the ordinary guy, and the army is full of a lot of less than acomplished marksmen, will generally do better with a rifle that is not so powerful. Hitting the target must come first sort of thing...I will admit that I don't like to shoot a 30-06 compared to some of the smaller calibers because they are just, well, less intimidating.
.

I really agree with this. I see all kinds of hunter who go afield each year with a large magnum that they can't shoot well. The ballistics for some of these look wonderful, but it's really hard to concentrate on proper shot placement if you have a rifle that kicks like a mule and sounds like a cannon. There are some experienced marksmen who can shoot one well, but even they may start to flinch after firing too many rounds.

I have a 300 Win. Mag. that I really like, but I usually grab my old 270 when hunting season opens. It's lighter, has a shorter barrel, less recoil, less noise, is almost as flat shooting at longer ranges, and above all I have more confidence in it.

But then again, when there's that big bull elk standing out there at 400 yards, I'd rather have the 300. It just has a lot more nock down power. There is an advantage to having a heavier, larger diameter bullet when dealing with bigger critters. But as you mentioned one of the greatest elephant hunters ever used a little 7mm to get the job done. He probably just got a little closer than needed and didn't pull the trigger until everything felt just right....(leaving little to chance in terms of having a wounded animal)...Steve1

[warpedskydiver 0]

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His comments to me were always that the ordinary guy, and the army is full of a lot of less than acomplished marksmen, will generally do better with a rifle that is not so powerful. Hitting the target must come first sort of thing...I will admit that I don't like to shoot a 30-06 compared to some of the smaller calibers because they are just, well, less intimidating.
.

I really agree with this. I see all kinds of hunter who go afield each year with a large magnum that they can't shoot well. The ballistics for some of these look wonderful, but it's really hard to concentrate on proper shot placement if you have a rifle that kicks like a mule and sounds like a cannon. There are some experienced marksmen who can shoot one well, but even they may start to flinch after firing too many rounds.

I have a 300 Win. Mag. that I really like, but I usually grab my old 270 when hunting season opens. It's lighter, has a shorter barrel, less recoil, less noise, is almost as flat shooting at longer ranges, and above all I have more confidence in it.

But then again, when there's that big bull elk standing out there at 400 yards, I'd rather have the 300. It just has a lot more nock down power. There is an advantage to having a heavier, larger diameter bullet when dealing with bigger critters. But as you mentioned one of the greatest elephant hunters ever used a little 7mm to get the job done. He probably just got a little closer than needed and didn't pull the trigger until everything felt just right....(leaving little to chance in terms of having a wounded animal)...Steve1

IT still shocks me that guys especially in the south use any magnum catridge at all on those deer they arent all that large to begin with...If and I mean IF you cant kill any whitetail in north america with nothing more than a .308 or .270 win its useless.

a nice cartridge for the recoil intimidated is a nice .260rem or 6.5mm swedish .270win is nice and also has low recoil

also a nice thing for less experienced or recoil intimidated people is a nice semi auto if you can keep them from banging away like its a drive by shooting....recoil pads help too...limbsaver makes a very nice one for cheap...also try a lighted reticle scope they are great for beginners and for experienced shooters they are great at dusk and dawn

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[warpedskydiver 0]

DAMN I WISH I COULD SKYDIVE AS WELL AS I CAN SHOOT!





I hum it 'cause I can (Henry 3:16)

[JohnRich 4]

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confirmed by a leica laser rangefinder I won $5.00

I'd love to have one of those toys, but they are way too expensive. You must have won yours in a raffle or something?

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lead it by 1.5 body lengths that mother was hauling ass! lots to calculate incuding reaction time it is a subconscious thing and you need to "feel the shot" trust instinct thinking takes too much time plus i shot 3 times...

Good instincts. Heck, I have to sit for several seconds just to calculate windage for bullseye shooting; wind speed, distance, direction, caliber...

I understand the "3 shots". In high-power rifle competition shooting, each stage of fire begins with two "sighter" shots, so we can confirm our zeros and windage. The 3rd shot is for score, and if you don't have it correct by then, you're screwed. And some of our stages of fire our 10-shots rapid fire, in 60 seconds, with no time between shots for adjustments. So if your zero is off, you can screw up 10 shots in a row.

Still, even with 3 shots, hitting a running deer at 200 yards is good work.

[JohnRich 4]

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info on the rifle used
FN/FAL firing nosler ballistic tips IMR4896 @2800fps
Frankenstein gun so I didn't mind painting it camo
trigger job, fire lapped barrel, tapered bore moly coated , 2.5-10x-42mm scope mildots

Sounds nice. What weight bullet are you using? What do you mean by a "tapered bore"?

[warpedskydiver 0]

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info on the rifle used
FN/FAL firing nosler ballistic tips IMR4896 @2800fps
Frankenstein gun so I didn't mind painting it camo
trigger job, fire lapped barrel, tapered bore moly coated , 2.5-10x-42mm scope mildots

Sounds nice. What weight bullet are you using? What do you mean by a "tapered bore"?

in .308win I use 150grain nosler ballistic tips
in .270win I use 130grain nosler ballistic tips
in 5.56mm I use 55grain combined technology ballistic tips(varmints)

A tapered bore is the end product of firelapping the bore is slightly larger at the throat than it is at the muzzle therefore squeezing the propellant gases ever more until it exits the barrel the other adavantage of fire lapping is it removes all those ugly imperfections and machine tool marks left over from rifling

Great question! and I hope that answer helped

The easy part is that deer don't shoot back!

[steve1 5]

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confirmed by a leica laser rangefinder I won $5.00

I'd love to have one of those toys, but they are way too expensive. You must have won yours in a raffle or something?
instinct thinking takes too much time plus i shot 3 times...

I'm in the market for a good rangefinder myself. I've never used one, but I can definitely see the advantages. Up to this point I've been using the distance between my duplex reticles when my 3X9 Leupold scope is set on nine power. I picked out an 18 inch (tall) cardboard box which is about how thick a deer is. Then shot at it at 300, 400, and even 500 yards. It only takes a quick glance now and I can guage fairly accurately how far a deer sized animal is, and if I have my trajectory memorized I can lay one in there.

I almost never shoot over 400 yards though, because I don't like wounding an animal. But there are those shots that need to be taken. Once an antelope that someone else wounded was getting away. He had a broken leg and was covering ground fast. He stopped way out there for just a few seconds. I quickly estimated the range at near 500 yards and dropped him with one shot. It's nice being able to do that. Most hunters could shoot a box of shells at that range without touching a hair.

But there is an easier, better way. I'm sure you already know all this John, because you do a lot of long range shooting.

A lot of hunters are buying quality range finders. I recently put a target turret on the elevation adjustment on one of my Leupolds. So, all you have to do is range an animal then turn the turret for that range and you should be right on. Of course this needs to be customized to your favorate load at the range.

There's other things like windage to worry about on long shots, but this could extend a hunters effective range a lot further out there. I watched a video recently where some coyote hunters were shooting coyotes out to 1,100 yards, and they seldom missed. That is simply amazing. I know this was video and they didn't show where they really messed up, but I can see how this system would really work.

The only real problem I can see with all this, is that it might be too easy. I kind of wonder if hunting was ever supposed to be like that. But at the same time I'd like to be able to make a shot like that.

So, at any rate, I'm in the market for a range finder. I've been looking at the new Bushnell 1500, but wonder if it's any good. I've heard the cheaper ones aren't very reliable. Leica makes one for about $100 more. I guess you get what you pay for when it comes to scopes and even range finders. I just wish I had more money instead of being so damn good looking!....Steve1

[Shark 0]

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The SA80's not cheap... it's just built cheap.

The cooler Brits use the M4.

[70sdiver 0]

Ive had the same problem with ballistic tips.Shot an antalope in the chest and it didnt even enter the body.I went to accu bonds in my varmint rifle and my 25.06 exellent accurys and awesome take down try them you'll love um.