Coach jumps - finishing the card

[Andy9o8 0]

Sorry your friend had that experience with Eloy. I like Eloy, but I agree that an experience like that would leave a bad taste in the mouth, and it does (based on the one side of the story presented here) seem curious that all those coach jumps were required for a "cleared to self-jumpmaster" novice to make a few solo jumps (after a check dive with an Instructor).

I'm wondering: have you or your friend sought any feedback directly from the people who run Eloy? Since you took this public, it seems that should be part of this, too.

[skybytch 259]

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I don't understand the requirement to make him go through the DZ's own program...especially since he is just visiting.

Because until a person has an A license they are technically still a student. As such, all jumps they make need to be done under the supervision of an instructor - yes, even solos.

It's pretty simple to keep an eye on post-AFF, pre-A licensed jumpers at a smaller dz. It becomes much more complicated at a large dz running multiple aircraft. Requiring those who don't have an A license to go through the DZ's own program makes keeping them safe in crowded airspace much easier (I'm assuming of course that keeping the newbies safe is at least part of the reasoning behind requiring more coached jumps than the ISP requires). It also keeps them from jumping with people who may have the best intentions but not have the ability/qualifications to jump with pre-A license holders.

[recovercrachead 0]

Yes thats why the USPA numbers are going down. This coach shit is bullshit. Some people are coaches who shouldn't be. Its one reason why I dont think I want to BIC. If I get the blessing from my elders in this sport to do something then its ok. I will jump with new jumpers every time because thats what was given to me. The experience I had with my first couple of hundred jumps is not around anymore. If I was new in this sport I would say "THIS IS BULLSHIT AND IT SUCKS! YOU WANT ME TO STAY IN THE SPORT GET RID OF THIS COACH CRAP". This goes for the recurrency too. I'm going to have someone who has less experience than me, pay him to hold my hand because I took a year off. I rather lie or leave the sport.Sometime I just want to say, FUCK THE USPA.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[L.O. 0]

I have to say, It's not the coach rating. It's the people who want the money for everything.

I sat in on a coach coarse this weekend at Skydive Wissota, in WI. The coarse was run by Mark Bauer and Miles hubbard. I was very impressed by how thorough these guys were. The coaches that came out of that class were proficient or didn't graduate.

So I say again it's not the rating. The rating is a good idea. It is the need to charge a bunch of money to get people started in the sport.

I don't mind paying the big bucks for Advanced coaching but to expect a newbie to spend the money just to have a safe skydive is Bul$%hit.

HPDBs, I hate those guys.
AFB, charter member.

[popsjumper 2]

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I have to say, It's not the coach rating. It's the people who want the money for everything.

And that's the bottom line of it all.



I had an unusual experience yesterday...I took a 13-jumper out on a coached jump and he put a jump on my account even after I told him not to. That was my 3rd, (I think) coach jump that I got paid for in the last 2.5 years.
WooooHoooo!
I'm rich!

I would love to make money, pad my bank account and get to eat every day by skydiving...but, alas, that's not where the fun of it all is.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

In theory we have a system in place that should allow portability of requirements from one DZ to another. Any jumper that is current and is off student status should not be subjected to "forced coach jumps". This attitude will hurt the sport in the long run. In regards to the big DZ that can't trust low time jumpers from jumping without supervision, I would like to say that Deland and Z-hills which are both megajump centers don't have that policy. I can only assume that this is because a document is presented that says, " This student is cleard for self-supervison".

On another note, my DZ also had many many jumpers that always gave back to the sport and helped me and others learn. This is exactly what others have stated. Pay it forward.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[hchunter614 0]

Sorry to hear that you had a bad experience like that at Eloy. But I'm very glad you posted about it because I was in the process of planning a winter trip to AZ to do some tunnel time and some AFF jumps. Now that I know that I would probably be expected to start over from scratch I think I will change my plans and head down to Skyventure Orlando and Deland.

[NewGuy2005 51]

Be sure to call ahead before you do and discuss your intentions and your experience in detail with the head instructor. I've traveled and made some student jumps in different places and I can tell you that all DZs have their own policies.

[Andy9o8 0]

That may not be warranted. Much as I love DeLand (and I do), Eloy is a superb DZ, too, and it would be unfair for it to get a bum rap and lose business solely on the basis of this one thread. Your situation sounds different. The OP's friend was a pre-A license AFF graduate seeking to do solo jumps and possibly get her A card signed-off. You, on the other hand, are still in AFF. You may or may not be able to more or less just pick up where you left off. The best way to tell is to call Eloy in advance, speak to someone in charge, and ask.

[Reginald 0]

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In theory we have a system in place that should allow portability of requirements from one DZ to another. Any jumper that is current and is off student status should not be subjected to "forced coach jumps".

That's the point until a perrson get's an A license they are still a student. Cleared to "self supervision" does not remove someone from the relm of being a student.

"We've been looking for the enemy for some time now. We've finally found him. We're surrounded. That simplifies things." CP

[ccsayre 0]

I'll offer the other side. 4 years ago I had the same situation. Planned a trip to Eloy with only 30 jumps and no A licience yet. I called and had a conversation with the previous GM. When I arrived, I looked him up and discussed everything including review of my logbook. I was cleared for solo, (as I was in Wis) the next day got my A. I did do coach jumps at a nominal cost, but it was never forced on me. I don't think your situation is representative of the norm. Or maybe things are different now.

I've been going to Eloy every winter since. Always have a great time. In fact, just got back last Saturday.

Luck is Preparation meeting Opportunity

[JustChuteMeNow 0]

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In Reply To
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In theory we have a system in place that should allow portability of requirements from one DZ to another. Any jumper that is current and is off student status should not be subjected to "forced coach jumps".

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That's the point until a perrson get's an A license they are still a student. Cleared to "self supervision" does not remove someone from the relm of being a student.

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OK perhaps I worded my reply poorly. If a "student" is cleared for self-supervison then they should not be subjected to "forced coach jumps". If the DZ can justify taking that earned right then I would love to have them validate the reasoning. I am not saying that a DZ should not be concerned about safety; however, a lot of good guidance can be given to student jumpers without requiring a fee.

Do I believe that coached jumps help new jumpers improve faster? Yes I do. However, I don't think that they should be required or forced on a new jumper until the student receives their "A" license. A lot of learning can take place on solo jumps where a coach doesn't necessarily need to be involved.

Think of how stupid the average person is and realize that statistically half of them are stupider than that.

[Andy9o8 0]

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A lot of learning can take place on solo jumps where a coach doesn't necessarily need to be involved.

That bears repeating.
Those of us who learned before AFF came into being understand this intuitively.

Why there's now almost a stigma against pre-A-license AFF grads doing a bunch of low-pressure solo jumps to hone their awareness and comfort in the air, and to play around in freefall in a low-pressure environment, is beyond me. I think it makes them safer jumpers once they start learning to jump with other people.

[recovercrachead 0]

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A lot of learning can take place on solo jumps where a coach doesn't necessarily need to be involved.

That bears repeating.
Those of us who learned before AFF came into being understand this intuitively.

Why there's now almost a stigma against pre-A-license AFF grads doing a bunch of low-pressure solo jumps to hone their awareness and comfort in the air, and to play around in freefall in a low-pressure environment, is beyond me. I think it makes them safer jumpers once they start learning to jump with other people.

THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!