Corporal punishment of children?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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If it makes you uncomfortable to think that you are hitting your child, then you probably shouldn't spank them.

This is true.
We could always try little nip-bites on the face, like momma dogs do to their puppies when they get outta line.

For what it's worth, I do not believe that being spanked teaches kids to hit people all through their lives. I think that it corrects the behavior in an instant, leaves an impression that lasts on the psyche (regarding not misbehaving, and the costs if you decide to), and also teaches that this is one way in which we discipline our young. The young grow up to understand that we spank the young, for their own betterment and learning, but we don't continue to spank other adults on into adulthood.

Those who don't learn this lesson, and who continue to hit people as adults, probably do that because of unrelated imperfections in their makeup; or because their own spankings amounted to something more akin to being terrorized by an abusive parent, beaten for little or no cause, frequently and with little or no restraint or self-control on the parent's part.

Pinning psychologicaldamage in a kid on the parent who occasionally spanks in the "this-will-hurt-me-more-than-it-does-you" classic sense when appropriate is unjustified. I suspect that those who were "spanked" into becoming violent people as adults were probably ABUSED, not spanked.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

The sense I got from his post was that he believes sociopaths become that way because they were because they were spanked, and that an abundance of evidence backs that theory up.

I really do not believe that psychological study data bears out that people who are spanked as children grow up to be sociopathic, hyper-aggressive monsters who take and take and take whatever they want from others, and abuse others -- simply because they were spanked and that's what it taught them to do. The idea of that is laughable.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[crozby 0]

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The sense I got from his post was that he believes sociopaths become that way because they were because they were spanked, and that an abundance of evidence backs that theory up.

Actually, what I said was:

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But there are significant studies that show links between being spanked as a kid and displaying agressive and violent behaviour as an adult.

But you can twist it and exaggerate it in an attempt to make it sound stupid if that's what turns you on.

[crozby 0]

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One of the issues with parents today is they treat them as little adults... first and foremost my job as a parent is to raise my child in a way that promotes a normal and healthy adult life, and on under certain circumstances spanking can help more then harm. I do not treat my kids as adults or as my friend, I am their mom, I am thier dad, I am their teacher, I reward them and I discipline them in a way that promotes a path of being well rounded , respectable adults.

Sorry to be boring and unconfrontational, but i agree with that 100%. Your approach sounds very sensible.

Here's an extreme example of how kids get mixed messages from spanking - I've witnessed this many times:

1. Child hits other child or sibling or parent.
2. Parent tells child not to hit.
3. Parent reinforces message by smacking child.

I don't know what kind of message the parent thinks they are sending here, but it is not the same one the kid is receiving.

[mnealtx 0]

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Here's an extreme example of how kids get mixed messages from spanking - I've witnessed this many times:

1. Child hits other child or sibling or parent.
2. Parent tells child not to hit.
3. Parent reinforces message by smacking child.

I don't know what kind of message the parent thinks they are sending here, but it is not the same one the kid is receiving.

You have Wonder Twin powers or something, that you know exactly what message the child is receiving? Again, your perceptions color your view of the situation - mine do too, of course.

"I smacked Lisa, and Daddy swatted my bottom for it. I didn't like that at all - I don't think I'm going to smack Lisa again."

That doesn't mean it's the best course in all circumstances and for all children. But in some circumstances and for some children, it does work and is effective.

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Good point, Mike. I've been saying that all along. A kid who gets spanked is not going to sit there and try to figure out the paradox of, "I was hit to show me that hitting is wrong." That just doesn't happen. The negative feedback is a lesson-giver. That's about all I think there is to it.

The kid says, "Damn, what I did got me an unpleasant spanking. I face that again if I do the same thing again."

At that point the kid must decide one thing: is the behavior rewarding enough to overcome the unpleasantness of the spanking? The answer to that will determine whether the spanking has the desired effect.

If what the others have been saying were true, then kids who get the stern talking to, or the punitive treatment, will grow up to want to torment others with harsh language and/or giving them unpleasant things to do -- since that's what they've been shown is the "right" thing to do. So they'll take pleasure in forcing others to do leg-lifts, perhaps, or to clean toilets with toothbrushes?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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"I smacked Lisa

You know that I hate to be called Lisa

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I don't think I'm going to smack Lisa again."

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[mnealtx 0]

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"I smacked Lisa

You know that I hate to be called Lisa

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I don't think I'm going to smack Lisa again."

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[Dolph 0]

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The kid says, "Damn, what I did got me an unpleasant spanking. I face that again if I do the same thing again."

Depends on the kid, doesn't it? Some are little thinkers. All are inquisitive by nature.

As a kid, I had no problem correlating bad behaviour with punishment. As my siblings also did, I thought about why it'd be happening though.

My conclusion, as a 7-year old, is one I've found to hold true today, 23 year laters.

"Because they can, and because I can't stop it".

This is perhaps a more valuable lesson than "oops, shouldn't hit my little sister". It's a dangerous lesson though. A couple trains of thoughts:

1) I want this position. I should obtain it.
2) I want to be able to stop it. At the very least, I want to test if "they really can".
3) Nothing to be done about it. I better behave, I better fit in, I better conform.

#3 is the easiest one to take and causes least friction. #1 turns ya into a bullying asshole. #2 will get ya beat up in school and have other consequences later in life - but at least you're standing your ground, frequently against #1 types.

My point is: the same material may teach two students two different things. As such, I don't think there is any one right answer to spank/not spank.

Children are astute observers and extremely adatable, unburdened by too much baggage and reinforced behaviour.

[Nightingale 0]

When I was a kid, an explanation about why running in the street was dangerous and that it scares mommy and daddy would have a lot more weight than a smack on the rear. An explanation about cars going in the street, drivers not looking, and kids getting hit by cars would make sure I didn't go in the street again. The only thing a smack on the rear would accomplish is make me more careful not to get caught next time.

[tbrown 26]

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When I was a kid, an explanation about why running in the street was dangerous and that it scares mommy and daddy would have a lot more weight than a smack on the rear. An explanation about cars going in the street, drivers not looking, and kids getting hit by cars would make sure I didn't go in the street again. The only thing a smack on the rear would accomplish is make me more careful not to get caught next time.

Interesting you bring up that example, because that was one of the maybe half dozen times I ever swatted my older daughter's tail. At first I told her to get out of the street and asked her why she was out there in the first place (she was 3 years old and it was a small subdivision street, but nevertheless it was a street). When she told me, "Because I want to", she got one good tail swat and was grounded the rest of the evening. That was the harder part, because the kids down the street came to ask if she could play 3 times that evening. But the smack on the butt was such a rare thing that she knew she was in REALLY BIG trouble. She didn't go in the street anymore after that. Much better than being run over and killed, which actually did happen to a friend of mine's 3 yr old daughter (thank God I didn't know him yet at the time, so we didn't have to suffer through the loss of his beautiful little girl, who we only know through a JC Penney's portrait taken two weeks before she died). Then the same daughter got a smack on the butt from my wife for the time she bodily threw herself at the television set for no apparent reason. She never tried that again either.

Over the years, people have told us repeatedly what nice girls we have, so I guess we did something right. And I don't think we've even used up our counting fingers for the number of times we've spanked the two of them combined. But we definitely don't need need no stinkin' social engineers imposing the latest theories from Sweden or Berkeley on us either, we raised our kids just fine by ourselves, thankyouverymuch...

Your humble servant.....Professor Gravity !

[Lindsey 0]

Yes. To what you said. I think it's silly to think that a 3 year old is going to think...."Oh, I could be injured if I run after my ball." It's just not part of a young child's thought processes, no matter how many times it's explained, if her ball rolls out into the street. Maybe there are a few really bright children for whom that might work. But a swat on the bottom, used sparingly, will remind your child that you are particularly serious about the lesson at hand. Sparingly is important, though....

I mostly think that the "shouldn't spank your children" movement is a pendulum swing in the opposite direction, and is no more right than the "children should be seen and not heard" movement from the 50's. There's usually a good middle ground, and a swat on the butt has its place, im h(as always) o.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[pirana 0]

Interesting thread, but a lot like religion, not going to convert anybody unless they have a life-altering experience. But I'll throw my 2 cents in.

We've never struck our children, ever. They are 6 and 8, and as sweet as they come. Might be a bit mischevious once in a while, but nothing terribly serious. The older one stole something when she was 6. Probably didn't really even fully understand how wrong it was. We had a long talk about the event, and decided to cancel her birthday party as a consequence. I think it is quite possible she will never steal again the rest of her life. There are lots of more powerful tools than physical force. They are more humane, less humiliating, and the child learns that brute force is pretty crude when compared to using your brains to figure out how to get something done.

I think if a person could spank with no anger and with extreme judiciousness - it would be OK. I do not know anyone who does that though. Every spanking I've witnessed has been the parent venting their anger. There isn't much going on in the area of intellectual discourse while the parent is smacking the kid on the ass. And discourse is the healthy way to learn a lesson. Instead of "I shouldn't do that or I'm going to get hit" becomes "I shouldn't do that because (insert intellectual reasoning here). The result is they behave because they understand, not because if Dad were here he'd hit me.

If getting smacked is the motivator to behave, then they'll not have an incentive to behave if they think the smacker won't find out. If the reasons for behaving are intellectualized, then the child will behave because it has become part of their persona.

I was the child of a habitual "spanker." He did it to satisfy his needs, not mine. I hate him to this day, and I turned out fine despite him. The kind of things I learned from him were: get better at not getting caught, avoid people like him, big people can get their way with little people, parents do not have a monopoly on what is right, etc.

There is a reason for the high corelation between levels of corporal punishment in children and criminal activity as adults. Whoever was questioning that connection needs to read up on the topic. It sure helped me make sense of why certain families in our neighborhood ended up raising the little bastards that turned into the bullies. I'm not aware of any study that casts even a shadow of doubt on that corelation.

OK, that was more like $1; and no, I don't need a hug.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[skydyvr 0]

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We had a long talk about the event, and decided to cancel her birthday party as a consequence. I think it is quite possible she will never steal again the rest of her life. There are lots of more powerful tools than physical force. They are more humane, less humiliating, and the child learns that brute force is pretty crude when compared to using your brains to figure out how to get something done.

I find it difficult to think of anything MORE humiliating than having a 6th year birthday party cancelled.

That's a rotten over-punishment -- a swat on the ass pales in comparison.

. . =(_8^(1)

[IanHarrop 37]

"A Cross-Cultural Examination of the Link Between Corporal Punishment and Adolescent Antisocial Behavior," Vol. 38 (1), February 2000, pp. 47-79.

Ronald L. Simons, Chyi-In Wu, Kuei-Hsiu Lin, Leslie Gordon, and Rand D. Conger

Several studies with older children have reported a positive relationship between parental use of corporal punishment and child conduct problems. This has lead some social scientists to conclude that physical discipline fosters antisocial behavior. In an attempt to avoid the methodological difficulties that have plagued past research on this issue, the present study used a proportional measure of corporal punishment, controlled for earlier behavior problems and other dimensions of parenting, and tested for interaction and curvilinear effects. The analyses were performed using a sample of Iowa families that displayed moderate use of corporal punishment and a Taiwanese sample that demonstrated more frequent and severe use of physical discipline, especially by fathers. For both samples, level of parental warmth/control (i.e., support, monitoring, and inductive reasoning) was the strongest predictor of adolescent conduct problems. There was little evidence of a relationship between corporal punishment and conduct problems for the Iowa sample. For the Taiwanese families, corporal punishment was unrelated to conduct problems when mothers were high on warmth/control, but positively associated with conduct problems when they were low on warmth/control. An interaction between corporal punishment and warmth/control was found for Taiwanese fathers as well. For these fathers, there was also evidence of a curvilinear relationship, with the association between corporal punishment and conduct problems becoming much stronger at extreme levels of corporal punishment. Overall, the results are consistent with the hypothesis that is when parents engage in severe forms of corporal punishment, or administer physical discipline in the absence of parental warmth and involvement, that children feel angry and unjustly treated, defy parental authority, and engage in antisocial behavior.

"Where troubles melt like lemon drops, away above the chimney tops, that's where you'll find me" Dorothy

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

What is it with these corporals and why are they punishing the children? Hey, wait a minute …


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[Airman1270 0]

...I think if a person could spank with no anger and with extreme judiciousness - it would be OK...
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On another tangent, I don't see what being angry has to do with it. The issue isself-control. There's nothing wrong with anger if it's directed at something one should be angry about. I might be "angry" when my little one blantantly defies me or fires off a snot-ass comment, but when I respond I'm in control.

In addition, I also don't take it personally. This is a normal part of the learning process. My intent is to teach them and correct their behavior. So far it's worked. There are wrong things they used to do which have been corrected. Of course, now we're dealing with a different set of issues, but so goes the process...

Cheers,
Jon S.

[rehmwa 2]

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I think if a person could spank with no anger and with extreme judiciousness - it would be OK. I do not know anyone who does that though. Every spanking I've witnessed has been the parent venting their anger.

It's likely that any public spanking most people have seen have been due to a parent venting. That's why the non-spankers are so visceral about it - you'd never see anything but in public, it's a private thing.

Your first sentence is dead on. The second is a shame.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants