Corporal punishment of children?

[pirana 0]

If you have to spank regularly, or seriously hit ever, you screwed up big time somewhere up the line. And since most personality traits are established between 2 and 6, you probably aren't even aware of what you did. Such is the bain of the parent and the burden of the child. Those Darn Humans are so bloody complicated.

" . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley

[Richards 0]

I don't think I would ever want to spank my kid. I realize how spineless that sounds but I really would not want him/her to fear me. I think there are many other effective methods of punishment that do not require the application of physical pain. In fairness I have never raised a child so I am speaking in ignorance and I don't want to sound as though I am judging those who do spank their kids. I am sure they believe they are acting in the kids best interest.

Richards

My biggest handicap is that sometimes the hole in the front of my head operates a tad bit faster than the grey matter contained within.

[Dolph 0]

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...Spanking is violence...
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Nonsense. See previous posts.

Alright, we'll just agree to disagree then. At any rate, my argument is just about semantics anyhow.

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What really sucks is that you have more jumps in two years than I have in 23.

Nice going. I don't spend much time drinking from the "envy" well, but I think I'll have a large glass right about now.

Hahah, thanks bro. I'm nearing my third year now, hoping to reach 1000 before that. First year I only did 60, after that it picked up a bit. I live in Denmark though and the weather here doesn't allow for many more jumps a year. So, since I have no kids to not spank/spank when necessary, I go abroad once every summer for a couple of weeks. It helps :).

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I totally agree that there are many other better alternatives to hitting and shouting at a child.
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Eye to eye contact, adopting a very deep, slow tone of voice when cross...

Great. If hitting kids conditions them to hit others, what is going to happen when they get conditioned that eye-to-eye contact means they're in trouble for something.

And with the very deep, slow tone of voice, you may just engender a terrible fear of opera... (which might not be all bad...)

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[virginflyer3 0]

In our house if all else fails she is subjected to the "naughty step" and forced to listen to opera until she is sorry.

Seriously, eye to eye contact engages them and having a very distinct voice that means "I am not happy with what you are doing" seems to work the same as a smack for me. It is far more better to be calm and explain what it is that is unacceptable in their behaviour than to rant and lash out. The lines become more ambiguous for both parties when this happens, where do you stop?

[crozby 0]

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How many children do you have?

That is a very dumb argument.

If you have more children than me, does it make your opinion carry more weight than mine?

What if I'm a child psychologist with no kids of my own, which of us understand this topic better then?

[rehmwa 2]

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What if I'm a child psychologist with no kids of my own, which of us understand this topic better then?

The one with more experience in it - new psych grad? the parent knows better by far and you'll do more damage than good likely if you do anything at all. Experience and practicing psych for several years, depends on how they practice and which parent you compare to, but you might have good advice at that point, but your partner with 3 kids and just as many years experience I'd put over you any day. And if it's my specific kid, my wife and I know better no matter what your credentials.

I don't hold with 'soft science' social degrees much, but a lot with experience and situation.

Family dynamics are not based on hard/fast rules, I suspect spanking works for some kids and not at all for others. Taking an absolute stand on it is as ridiculous as anything else I can think of. Even that mental picture of a mule in a tutu giving a rallying speech at the libertarian put luck in Sheboygan.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[crozby 0]

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I suspect spanking works for some kids and not at all for others

I don't dispute that spanking a child disuades it from repeating the behaviour that earned the punishment. It's clear that more often than not, that does work.

But it still sends the message that hitting is ok.

Which it isn't.

If it is ok to hit your kids, why is it not ok for kids to hit other kids and why is it illegal to hit other adults your own age. It doesn't make sense to adults, let alone children.

Children who hit other children tend to be on the receiving end of physical abuse themselves. When you see little kids hitting their friends or their parents, more often than not their parents hit them too.

Like other people here have said, there are plenty of other options open to parents if they care to investigate.

[Alias 0]

Got 4 sons. Never hit one of them. All great little Dudes! We found that restriction from the toy of the moment (T-rex, playstation, bike etc) did just fine.
Mixed with a bit of reason instead of anger lashed out in a lack of patients produced 4 well adjusted well behaved young men, so far

Not saying that smaking a kid around could not produce the same results, just wasnt our bag. I guess we equaled it to a respect thing

Carpe Diem

[rehmwa 2]

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But it still sends the message that hitting is ok.

Spanking is not hitting, that debate tactic is emotional and escalatory and does not foster respectful debate.It's up to the parent in how they discipline and also for them to communicate with the child that the spanking is discipline and not just 'hitting'.

The difference between 'spanking' and 'hitting' has to be the emotional state of the parent.

If the parent 'loses it' and spanks the child with that overtone, then the child learns that hitting is an appropriate response to frustration and anger.

If the parent discusses with the child what they did wrong, then administers the spanking as part of the punishment - all the while in control, then that is a lesson in correction and discipline. The trick is, be the grown up, not just a bigger kid.

It's that simple. People on the anti-spank side seem to think that only the first case exists. They can't differentiate good controlled parenting from their addiction to striking out anytime they get emotional. It's why they can't understand the other side and also why they get so emotional themselves. Very likely, an anti-spanking advocate (typically) shouldn't spank their children - they wouldn't do it right because it wouldn't be discipline, it would be 'striking out' once they've "had enough and can't take it anymore". So their position is the right one - for them.

But not everyone is like them. Many are much stronger.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[juanesky 0]

And you forgot that some are in accordance to the law of 3 spanks and you are out!

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[Lindsey 0]

If it is ok to hit your kids, why is it not ok for kids to hit other kids and why is it illegal to hit other adults your own age. It doesn't make sense to adults, let alone children.

Despite your logical argument, most of us DO grow up understanding that it's not okay to hit, even if we were spanked as children. Most of our children will understand this too. The problem with studies about social issues is that it's too hard to define variables. There are people who spank and because of undefined variables have children who grow up with aggression. There are other parents who spank and because of other undefinbed variables have children who grow up understanding socially acceptable behavior and that spanking doesn't mean it's okay to go around hitting people.

Trying to draw absolute lines when you're dealing with behavioral science just doesn't work.

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[Alias 0]

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If the parent discusses with the child what they did wrong, then administers the {insert alternative here} spanking as part of the punishment - all the while in control, then that is a lesson in correction and discipline. The trick is, be the grown up, not just a bigger kid.

added a correction.

I guess if you feel you HAVE to "spank" and you have no other choices with that child - go for it - I could take the best spanking anyone could give at 5. Border line child abuse. But don't touch my teddy bear and take it from me, then you will really get my attention! Get the point?

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It's that simple. People on the anti-spank side seem to think that only the first case exists.

Well not all of us. Some can actually see both sides and decide.

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They can't differentiate good controlled parenting from their addiction to striking out anytime they get emotional.

Not sure how to address that bovine feces.

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But not everyone is like them. Many are much stronger.

I guess since you opened that can I just have to respond. Personally, I feel the stronger parent and person for that matter, can find an alternative to spanking that creates a much more effective long lasting result.

But again, just reacting to my personal expierience with 4 boys. Again, I feel that reasoning, combined with restricting an event, toy etc with a toddler creates a better understanding of situations, as they grow older.

Certainly not in the camp that spanking is detrimental - just feel it is not needed - I found alternatives that provided the same if not better results.

Carpe Diem

[billvon 2,400]

>But it still sends the message that hitting is ok.
>Which it isn't.

?? You wouldn't hit a person to get them out of the way of a train? Or to stop them from committing suicide?

There ARE valid reasons to hit people in our society - self defense, stopping a suicide, protecting other people. It is a last resort when less intrusive methods fail, and even then it is only permissible to prevent a greater harm.

>If it is ok to hit your kids, why is it not ok for kids to hit other kids
> and why is it illegal to hit other adults your own age.

It's illegal to hit other adults for disciplinary purposes because adults take responsibility for their own actions. Children do not; that's why they are treated differently under the law. A man who kidnaps an adult woman and holds her against her will is going to jail for a long time. A parent who "grounds" his 12 year old daughter for a month for getting drunk is not only not going to get arrested, he is taking his job as a parent seriously.

[rehmwa 2]

I appreciate your last two sentences quite a bit. But your personal experience is not a basis for judging others in other situations. We also avoid spanking like the plague. But it's not off the list of options even though it will likely never be used again.

I'll never berate or judge a parent that spanks as long as they do it for discipline. But I'll be first in line if I ever see a child struck in any way from anger or loss of control.

I don't think the one line was bullshit - if the protester can't maintain their calm in expressing their opinions, I have every reason to think they can't keep their cool with their kids.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[crozby 0]

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Spanking is not hitting, that debate tactic is emotional and escalatory and does not foster respectful debate

I think spanking, or smacking people on the arse or legs with the flat of your hand is hitting them whatever you choose to call it.

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It's that simple. People on the anti-spank side seem to think that only the first case exists.

It's even simpler than that. The spanking carries more than one message no matter how cool, calm and collected the parent is when administering it.

The first message is "If you behave like that you will revceive pain".

The second message is "I can inflict pain on you when you do something I consider bad, because I'm bigger than you and I am in charge here".

I don't doubt that in the immediate term the spanking usually gets the child to modify its behaviour, no one here is disputing that fact.

But there are significant studies that show links between being spanked as a kid and displaying agressive and violent behaviour as an adult.

Its a personal choice. I choose to not spank because I don't want to take the chance my offspring will learn that hitting people is a good way to get what they want.

Plus, I simply don't need to use pain administration when there is such an abundance of non-violent training methods available to me.

[crozby 0]

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There ARE valid reasons to hit people in our society - self defense, stopping a suicide, protecting other people. It is a last resort when less intrusive methods fail, and even then it is only permissible to prevent a greater harm.

Of course you are right. But we're talking about training small kids here and all of that is probably a little too complicated for them to take aboard and understand. They need simplicity and consistency at the early stages. Black and white stuff. Really basic concepts. "You're either with us or against us", that kind of thing.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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The first message is "If you behave like that you will revceive pain".

Thats resonable of you to point out, however, take the child who dashes out in the road and recieves a smack in lieu of getting hit by a car.... it is a very common thing that children do, but not a common behavor that is repeated. Ive never met a parent that when they see their child start to dash out in the road states calmly "stop wait, one more step and its time out for you..."

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The first message is "If you behave like that you will revceive pain".

Using the above example, some pain (the pain of a smack on the bottom) is a better lesson then a body cast when the child does something that can cause extreme physical pain and or death. "Im sorry I did not grab your arm as you ran off into the road, I didnt want to hurt you by using force of restainment."

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The second message is "I can inflict pain on you when you do something I consider bad, because I'm bigger than you and I am in charge here".

Thats not how the avg parent feels. As a matter a fact Ive never met a parent who thinks that way, although I am sure they exist.

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Its a personal choice. I choose to not spank because I don't want to take the chance my offspring will learn that hitting people is a good way to get what they want.

Just as there is information to support your claims, there is also information that supports those parents who choose to use corporal punishment. We as people find the information that agrees with our personal feelings, and we negate the information to the contrary.

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I simply don't need to use pain administration when there is such an abundance of non-violent training methods available to me.

Yes and for most issues I think using creative means to teach lessons is important as a parent. That being said, in some extreme life or death situations that call for immediate attention you can not sit there and try to think of a punishment. It may be to late.

I personally make my children do push ups and flutter kicks.... I do not have to cause them pain, I have them give themselves pain. It works, they hate it, and the mere threat of it produces well behaved kids.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Its a personal choice. I choose to not spank because I don't want to take the chance my offspring will learn that hitting people is a good way to get what they want.

This kind of idea perpetuates the fallacy that a kid who is spanked for some childhood transgression will internalize that to where he feels if he wants a bottle of Coke from the convenience store, he's gonna spank around people in order to get it. Or that he's gonna spank the people in his office if their numbers are too low for the month, etc. It's just ridiculous.

If a parent spanks a kid as a corrective measure when he is a child, he stops the behavior -- because he understands the unpleasantness of the spanking even when he would not understand the intricacy of an explanation of why he should not be running around knocking into people's knees at a wake, for example, particularly after being simply told to stop.

In fact, that brings up another point. I don't think that most parents use a spanking unless they have first given a parental directive, and then seen that legitimate directive (they are the parent, after all) disobeyed at least once, probably more.

If your kid cannot understand your point, or is being willfully disobedient and incorrigible, I see a spanking as wholly legitimate, because it is one thing a kid will understand and which will drive the point home. Sometimes it comes down to "what else can you do?"

But I don't think spanking is generally seen, or used, as a first-resort. Except by trailer trash mommas in the dollar store, who are fed up with their beer-swilling, no-job-havin' husbands and their filthy, snot-nosed rugrat sandbags.

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[crozby 0]

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however, take the child who dashes out in the road and recieves a smack in lieu of getting hit by a car.... it is a very common thing that children do, but not a common behavor that is repeated. Ive never met a parent that when they see their child start to dash out in the road states calmly "stop wait, one more step and its time out for you..."
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"Im sorry I did not grab your arm as you ran off into the road, I didnt want to hurt you by using force of restainment."

Spanking a child and grabbing them to prevent them being hit by a car are two different things altogether.

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Thats not how the avg parent feels. As a matter a fact Ive never met a parent who thinks that way, although I am sure they exist.

I was not suggesting the parent thinks that. I was referring to what the child learns from the spanking experience. They don't only associate spanking with the bad behaviour, they learn other things from the situation.

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That being said, in some extreme life or death situations that call for immediate attention you can not sit there and try to think of a punishment. It may be to late.

Such as?

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personally make my children do push ups and flutter kicks.... I do not have to cause them pain, I have them give themselves pain. It works, they hate it, and the mere threat of it produces well behaved kids.

I like the sound of that. A guy I work with gets his kids (3 of them) to behave on long journeys by opening up a bag of chocolates, telling them they get to share whatevers left at the end of the journey and then tossing one out the window every time they start fighting. He says the look of horror on their face as a chocolate leaves the vehicle is priceless.

[crozby 0]

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This kind of idea perpetuates the fallacy that a kid who is spanked for some childhood transgression will internalize that to where he feels if he wants a bottle of Coke from the convenience store, he's gonna spank around people in order to get it. Or that he's gonna spank the people in his office if their numbers are too low for the month, etc. It's just ridiculous.

I'm surprised you can feel so strongly this is the case when the available data suggests otherwise.

What is your opinion based on?

[Shotgun 1]

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Spanking is not hitting

You might want to look up the definition of hitting.

If it makes you uncomfortable to think that you are hitting your child, then you probably shouldn't spank them. Whether you do it out of frustration and anger, or you do it in a controlled manner, it is still hitting your kid.

But I'm not trying to tell anyone how to raise their kids... It's just something that I would personally not choose to do.

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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Spanking a child and grabbing them to prevent them being hit by a car are two different things altogether

retraint and a quick smak will freak them out enough to where they will never run in the road again, that is if spankings are the rare thing.

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They don't only associate spanking with the bad behaviour, they learn other things from the situation.

I agree.... but look at the research that does suggest that the occasional spank is a way to teach a productive lesson when done without anger and lecture before and after. There is evidence to support both sides. One of the issues with parents today is they treat them as little adults... first and foremost my job as a parent is to raise my child in a way that promotes a normal and healthy adult life, and on under certain circumstances spanking can help more then harm. I do not treat my kids as adults or as my friend, I am their mom, I am thier dad, I am their teacher, I reward them and I discipline them in a way that promotes a path of being well rounded , respectable adults. That being said I can count on my hand how many times I have ever swatted my children. Why ? Because I am mean and creative and find other ways and used corporal punishment in only the most sever forms of punishment.

It is still legal in most states for schools to us C.P. which is something I definitly do not agree with EVER.

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Such as?

Such as the child who dash's out into the street, or the child who is trying to stick fingers in electrical sockets, or the child who wanders off while in public ... I could go on with more examples but I have not experienced other situations as a parent myself.

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He says the look of horror on their face as a chocolate leaves the vehicle is priceless.

Roll of quarters works well to.... they get to hold it, they mis-behave on the long trip (we used to travel ALOT) they hand over a quarter... I also have the book of lies... any time one of my children lies, I just look it up in the book and in black and white it is there, informing me of which child did which bad deed....

Some parents use spanking in excess, but that does not mean the child they raise is doomed to be misrable adults. Most of our generation was spanked as children... same with our parents and so on... Some parents choose things because for their family it works... or because they have a hard time teaching prevention...

My mother hates that I make my kids do push ups... her perception is different then mine and she feels it would be more effective if I spanked on a regular basis,... so basically what I am saying is that neither has a right to judge as long as there is a clear understanding of the difference in physical abuse and discipline....

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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This kind of idea perpetuates the fallacy that a kid who is spanked for some childhood transgression will internalize that to where he feels if he wants a bottle of Coke from the convenience store, he's gonna spank around people in order to get it. Or that he's gonna spank the people in his office if their numbers are too low for the month, etc. It's just ridiculous.

I'm surprised you can feel so strongly this is the case when the available data suggests otherwise.

What is your opinion based on?

Um, you think that convenience store robbers and other such people are that way because they were spanked, and exclusively because they were spanked?

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-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[lisamariewillbe 1]

When did he say that?

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this