Corporal punishment of children?

[Andy9o8 0]

This thread is prompted by Tony Blair's admission that he smacked his older kids (but does not smack his youngest):
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/01/11/uk.blair.smacking/index.html

Seems like a good SC topic.
Discuss.

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Edit to quote the following from the article:

Mary Crowley, chief executive of the Parenting Education and Support Forum, said that children should receive exactly the same protection from the law as adults.

"The law should protect children, there should be the same protection as adults protected by the law of assault, so that if things got bad, they can actually have recourse to justice," she told BBC Breakfast TV.


Does the right to be free from physical violence increase upon attaining the age of majority? Or should it be universal regardless of age?

[Rebecca 0]

Every now and then, a good well-timed smack on the butt can be really helpful. Done infrequently enough, and only in 'extreme' situations, it can shock a misbehaving kid into behaving. After that, the threat of a smack is enough.

I do think it's a last resort though after other more positive methods fail, and I don't think it works on all kids.

I can still remember thinking, "Whoa. She really wasn't kidding. Guess I shouldn't do that..." I was a "push-the-boundaries" type...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[wmw999 2,123]

I'd have to say I agree. Don't plan it; never do the "wait until your father gets home then you'll REALLY get it" thing. Don't do it because you're pissed.

It's a sudden attention getter, like making a really loud noise. My son probably got fewer than a dozen swats the whole time he was of swattable age.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[OATSF14 0]

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Done infrequently enough, and only in 'extreme' situations, it can shock a misbehaving kid into behaving.

Robert is 21. Maybe 6 or 7 spankings while he was growing up. He simply knew that a warning meant action if he brushed it aside. Kids are smart. They know.

[Airman1270 0]

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I'd have to say I agree. Don't plan it; never do the "wait until your father gets home then you'll REALLY get it" thing. Don't do it because you're pissed.

It's a sudden attention getter, like making a really loud noise. My son probably got fewer than a dozen swats the whole time he was of swattable age.
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Same thing in my home. My kids got an occasional spank; As a result it didn't happen very often. My oldest (12) is drifting out of the "spank" age, but a stage slap in response to a particularly snotty comment is not out of the question. Even so, It's rare, and I'm blessed with decent kids I can take out in public.

When the anti-spanking nazies voice their concerns, they invariable describe some incredibly harsh and/or brutal behavior that has nothing to do with traditional spanking. Perhaps their own bad experiences motivate their crusade? Even so, I'd feel more at ease if they would simply tell us what they think, rather than demand laws making it a crime to discipline our kids.

Cheers,
Jon S.

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[rehmwa 2]

is that corporal punishment or corporeal punishment

I believe spankins should continue through and into the 723rd month.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[Dolph 0]

Most of the people I've spoken to who're anti "traditional spanking" (whatever that is) object to it on moral grounds rather than because they were abused as children.

Their argument goes that with proper techniques, it's not necessary. And of course that and adult has an incredible physical and mental advantage of a child. Using violence on relatively helpless creatures being who they are (children) is wrong in their eyes.

I don't know. I haven't got any kids, I don't know about the challenges of raising them. For adults a threat without any sort of backing is an empty threat and begs to be ignored. For kids - dunno if the threat has to be of violence to come.

Mostly very mild violence for the sake of education sure, but violence nonetheless.

[wmw999 2,123]

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I believe spankins should continue through and into the 723rd month.

We're not talking about the kind where the spanker is wearing a French maid's outfit and spike heels

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Mary Crowley, chief executive of the Parenting Education and Support Forum, said that children should receive exactly the same protection from the law as adults.

"The law should protect children, there should be the same protection as adults protected by the law of assault, so that if things got bad, they can actually have recourse to justice," she told BBC Breakfast TV.


Does the right to be free from physical violence increase upon attaining the age of majority? Or should it be universal regardless of age?

Adults can't tell other adults they have to stand in the corner, or go to bed without supper, but they can tell children so. Are protections against these punishments in the works as well?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[crozby 0]

Hitting your children sends them the message that it's ok to hit people.

For that reason alone it is better to use alternative punishments.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Hitting your children sends them the message that it's ok to hit people.

For that reason alone it is better to use alternative punishments.

How many children do you have?

[virginflyer3 0]

I totally agree that there are many other better alternatives to hitting and shouting at a child.

Not to say I have not done the above before. It was very upsetting the last time I lost my "cool" with her, not just for her but for me as well. I decided then that there were definately better ways of going about this "discipline thing" and there are.

Eye to eye contact, adopting a very deep, slow tone of voice when cross, empathy to a childs feelings of frustration and actually listening to them all work. Most naughty behaviour is caused by them being ignored and under stimulated.

[Andy9o8 0]

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Hitting your children sends them the message that it's ok to hit people.

For that reason alone it is better to use alternative punishments.

How many children do you have?

As I said in the other thread on this topic when you asked someone that same question,
http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=2021823;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread, we raised 2 kids, they weren't easy kids, we never struck them or subjected them to physical pain as a means of discipline, we most definitely did subject them to discipline (without hitting), and they've turned out just fine. I think that speaks for itself.

[Gravitymaster 0]

I wasn't directing the question to you before, nor am I now. Why do you keep answering for others?

[Sen.Blutarsky 0]

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Hitting your children sends them the message that it's ok to hit people.

For that reason alone it is better to use alternative punishments.

Sometimes it _is_ okay to hit people. Boxing and karate lessons by a good parent can help a kid to distinguish justifiable hitting linked to causality from unjustifiable or arbitrary hitting. Infrequent spankings that are tied to dangerous behaviors by a child should not have any different effect on the future propensities of the child to engage in violence when a sensical explanation accompanies the spanking.


Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners!

[nacmacfeegle 0]

Who says it's not okay to hit people? I don't want to raise a son who can't defend himself, the trick is to educate so he knows when it is and is not acceptable.

I'll give the wee fella slap on his ass if he gets out of line, and I'll clip him round the ear as well.

--------------------

He who receives an idea from me, receives instruction himself without lessening mine; as he who lights his taper at mine, receives light without darkening me. Thomas Jefferson

[Airman1270 0]

...Most of the people I've spoken to who're anti "traditional spanking" (whatever that is) object to it on moral grounds...

...Using violence...
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This is the problem! Spanking is NOT "violence." As for the moral argument, spanking is taught in the most influential book of moral teachings known to society.

If normal, Biblicaly-correct spanking was harmful, we'd see plenty of evidence to support the accusation. Instead, we have the opposite: A society of millions of people who were spanked as children who have grown into normal, productive adults.

I don't appreciate anyone calling me or my parents "child abusers." What's the point of creating a problem that doesn't exist?

Cheers,
Jon S.

[RMURRAY 1]

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Hitting your children sends them the message that it's ok to hit people.

For that reason alone it is better to use alternative punishments.

I agree completely. It is not an easy thing to control yourself. but I am convinced spanking is just not right and does not work either.

rm

[lisamariewillbe 1]

I am not giving my personal opinion on corporal punishment because I think that it is a personal decsion that must be made per family and often times per child.

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This is the problem! Spanking is NOT "violence."

Tech it is violence, it is using force to cause harm on someone. Violence comes in many forms it can be physical, emotional or mental...

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If normal, Biblicaly-correct spanking was harmful, we'd see plenty of evidence to support the accusation.***

Define biblically correct spanking? And there are plenty of sources of information on evidence that does suggest spanking is not productive in the long run. What is productive is active parenting, spanking is one of many tools. However if a parent were to only spank and not reiderate the problem behavior, the solutions, etc then you have a child who has a sore bottom and thats all. I have been asked several times from my children "cant you just spank me" thats because Im creative and I want the lessons to stick.

I don't appreciate anyone calling me or my parents "child abusers."

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I agree, jsut because a parent chooses to use spanking as one of their tools to discipline, does not make them abusive. HOWEVER how does society tell the difference between spanking and child abuse?

I for one was beat as a child, I refuse to say I was spanked, although if you asked my parents they would consider it spanking. In my opinion if there is a mark other then minor redness then I would personally call it abuse.

What's the point of creating a problem that doesn't exist?
***

The problem does exist. There are parents who use belts , and paddles and turn their child's bottom into bruised and sometimes bloody masses. There are parents who slap their child accross the face resulting in bloody noses, their are parents who go to jail because their "spanking" has landed their child in the hospital. There are children that grow up with low self esteem because as a child they were subjected to repeated spanking without pro-active parenting. There are adults who as children have fears that are irrational because as a child they were severly punished for being kids and were not able to learn from mistakes, they were to scared to make the mistakes after a few beatings.

Once again its a case by case situation and thus making it hard to say one way or the other if I believe in it or not.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Dolph 0]

Spanking is violence.

violence
n 1: an act of aggression (as one against a person who resists);

It's a mild form of violence and ist most often done to educate rather than harm. But I bet kids don't like being spanked and would resist it if they had any viable options (other than not doing whatever caused the spanking in the first place). They may develop a sexual interest in spanking later on in life but the people I know pretty much all agree that spanking wasn't something fun. Ain't arguing about the effectiveness now, just about the violence bit.

If you bitch slap a co-worker, that is violence. The force applied is probably around the same as when a kid gets one on his ass. As long as it hits the kids ass, it's spanking. If the kids was smacked with the same force on the face, it would qualify as child abuse.

The threat of violence is one method to keep people in check until they develop a mature moral compass and the ability to follow it. The threat of spanking is in essence: failure to comply will result in pain and possibly humiliation. I personally think there are times when that is warranted. But I will not play a redefine game on violence.

I didn't call you a child abuser Jon. Am merely saying that all that oppose spanking don't do it because they were abused as kids. Then I related the arguments they've presented to me - they're not mine, they're not new and they're a matter of personal belief to those that hold them.

But slapping someone is being violent to 'em. Some years ago, students in classes were subjected to "disciplining" when they failed to perform to a teachers satisfaction.

Whether you call it disciplining or spanking, when you deliberately bring pain to someone, you're being violent towards them. It may be justified. It may benefit the individual. The act of inflicting pain is a violent one, even if it is part of an act of compassion.

[Airman1270 0]

...Tech it is violence, it is using force to cause harm on someone...
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Spanking does NOT cause harm.


Define biblically correct spanking?
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A strong measure of love and the intention to teach the child how to behave. An example would be the time we were getting out of the car in a parking lot and my toddler suddenly ran toward the restaurant, oblivious to the other cars. I grabbed her, gave her a swat, and held her. She cried for a moment, and learned that what she did could have caused her great harm.

Spanking should be reserved for actions which can result in personal harm, or for deliberate disobediance. It is not to be used for such things as spilling a glass of milk or breaking a fragile item that the parents should not have kept within reach of a curious toddler.


...HOWEVER how does society tell the difference between spanking and child abuse?...
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If you have to ask, don't have kids. You went on to provide a list of behaviors that NOBODY is defending, and certainly has nothing to do with spanking.

Cheers,
Jon

[wmw999 2,123]

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But I bet kids don't like being spanked and would resist it if they had any viable options

Not to be too obvious, but kids resist a whole lot of things; that's not a good determinant of what's good for children.

If you use spanking for your own ends (e.g. because you're angry or frustrated), it's probably wrong. It's one of many tools, and loses its effectiveness every time it's used. If you can think of something else, then you should probably use that something else.

But when a child is in their own little world and needs a very sudden return to this one, a quick swat can do the trick.

But probably my best parenting trick was to count to 10 instead of 3. That would always give me a chance to consider whether what I was counting about was really swat-worthy. If I realized that the issue was more mine or that it just wasn't swat-worthy, I'd start 1-2-3-4-17-63-12-19 ... that way my son knew the limits had really been pushed, and he'd quit too. Gave him information to use the next time he needed to make a decision. I counted a lot more than I ever swatted.

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Airman1270 0]

...Spanking is violence...
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Nonsense. See previous posts.

What really sucks is that you have more jumps in two years than I have in 23.

Nice going. I don't spend much time drinking from the "envy" well, but I think I'll have a large glass right about now.

Cheers,
Jon

[lisamariewillbe 1]

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A strong measure of love and the intention to teach the child how to behave

There are other ways to discipline with love and education. The simple act of hitting a kid will NOT teach them how to behave.

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I grabbed her, gave her a swat, and held her. She cried for a moment, and learned that what she did could have caused her great harm.

Completley in the right, I to have used CP in that extreme case. However thats the exception rather then the rule.

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If you have to ask, don't have kids. You went on to provide a list of behaviors that NOBODY is defending, and certainly has nothing to do with spanking.

I did not mean me personally I meant society, and how society sees things. I have three children and I take offence to you assuming I should not. There are plenty of child abusers who abuse their children in the defence of spanking, and if you think this does not happen do a few google searches. How can you sit here and say which way is the proper way for everyone to discipline? If its okay for one parent to hit their child then where is that line so there is a clear cut definiation that will seperate spanking and abuse. Once again I take offence that you twisted my words to make it appear that I on a personal level do not see the difference. I also know this is the internet and really dont care to much because I know what my opinions are and I know how my words will be precieved by the avg reader.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[Airman1270 0]

...There are other ways to discipline with love and education. The simple act of hitting a kid will NOT teach them how to behave...
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Spanking is not "hitting." And yes, it does work.

...I grabbed her, gave her a swat, and held her. She cried for a moment, and learned that what she did could have caused her great harm.


Completley in the right, I to have used CP in that extreme case. However thats the exception rather then the rule...
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No, that IS the rule. This is what we're talking about.
This was one of those few occasions where it was necessary. It worked.

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If you have to ask, don't have kids. You went on to provide a list of behaviors that NOBODY is defending, and certainly has nothing to do with spanking.

I did not mean me personally I meant society, and how society sees things. I have three children and I take offence to you assuming I should not...
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Sorry L.M. - No personal offense intended. When you asked what the difference is between a loving swat on the behind and the other brutal actions you described, what reaction did you expect?

It appears we're in agreement on this. You said you have used CP on rare occasions. As have I. It's not a common occurance. My kids rarely ever get spanked. When they do, it's a swat or two on the ass. Nothing more. The result is three fine, normally-developing kids. No goth, no trench coats, no going to school dressed like sluts. I think they're going to turn out okay.

Cheers again,
Jon