TomAiello 25 #26 January 6, 2006 QuoteI'm assuming that the voucher program ends up costing the taxpayer more. Is that the case? If it ends up saving the taxpayers money, then the decision really is heinous. Most voucher programs actually save the taxpayers money. I can't speak to this particular program in Florida, specifically, though. It's interesting that the NEA acts more as a union, basically working to save public school teachers jobs, but individual teachers are often more concerned with what's good for the kids than what's good for their jobs. Most of the people actually doing the teaching aren't in it for the money.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #27 January 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm assuming that the voucher program ends up costing the taxpayer more. Is that the case? If it ends up saving the taxpayers money, then the decision really is heinous. Most voucher programs actually save the taxpayers money. I can't speak to this particular program in Florida, specifically, though. It's interesting that the NEA acts more as a union, basically working to save public school teachers jobs, but individual teachers are often more concerned with what's good for the kids than what's good for their jobs. Most of the people actually doing the teaching aren't in it for the money. NOT DOING IT FOR THE MONEY?!?!?!?!? Who are these fucking people? Teachers is craaaaaaaazy! Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #28 January 6, 2006 QuoteWhat we're doing now is not giving more money to the school system. That depends on how you define "school system." Is it _all_ schools, or just the public ones? FWIW, I think that competition produces more efficiency in almost all settings. A little dose of competition would probably be helpful to the schools, too. If the public schools have to compete for students, they're going to try to provide the best value for the money, which will lead to them finding ways to improve the services (i.e. education) they provide.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #29 January 6, 2006 QuoteFWIW, I think that competition produces more efficiency in almost all settings. A little dose of competition would probably be helpful to the schools, too. If the public schools have to compete for students, they're going to try to provide the best value for the money, which will lead to them finding ways to improve the services (i.e. education) they provide. But,,,, that's hard to do when the union leadership is already happy in their rut. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #30 January 6, 2006 QuoteI think spending money on welfare and education is a better use of tax dollars than the $2 million per cruise... Why do people always lump welfare and education together? In my opinion, they are vastly different.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #31 January 6, 2006 QuoteI'm trying to figure out if this thread is drifting in the "I hate welfare mothers" direction. . Is "welfare" a word that only implies "mothers"? I must have missed the memo. The case that Walt is referring to are ones that I am also too familiar witnessing. IE one of my tenants, single, male, likes to drink (as the empty beer bottles would indicate), smokes dope, does not work, and relies on welfar at different level. Get this, not a single attempt to get a job for over a year!. With 2 kids. I definitely don't feel my tax dollars are not helping those 2 kids. It sucks."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
littlestranger 0 #32 January 6, 2006 QuoteFine for you, but those of us who have chosen to never have kids are paying for those who do and many of those people are having kids when they cannot afford them in the first place. Those people are putting an unfair burden on the rest of society. yes but can you imagine living in a society rife with uneducated adults QuoteIs it not just as unfair for people without kids to support other people's kids even if they do otherwise not depend on the rest of society to support their kids? huh? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brierebecca 0 #33 January 6, 2006 QuoteThe problem with this idea is that if we remove the tax that is used to fund public school, it will not stop idiots from having children. That, and it's unconstitutional. Several SC cases in Florida have ruled that if we take the tax away from people who don't have children, then we're essentially charging tuition for the people who do have children, and this takes away from the Constitutional requirement for a free, uniform public school system. I just helped write a brief on this issue. Take it from me, Bush's program for vouchers is a GIANT COP-OUT. He essentially shirking his governmental responsibility to provide a free, uniform system of public schools. That, and the voucher program is also unconstitutional because of the Establishment Clause in the Florida Constitution, which happens to be even more strict than the US Constitiution because it says that "no aid, direct or indirect, shall go to fund sectarian institutions." Since 97 percent of children who took advantage of the voucher system during the first go-around (Bush v. Holmes) when to sectarian schools, it was a serious problem. I mean, these people are idiots. What part of "direct or indirect" and "no aid" don't they understand? Sheesh Brie"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #34 January 6, 2006 QuoteClicky That turd Meyer's quote really perturbed me. "Students using vouchers will now be welcomed back into Florida public schools," Meyer said in a statement. Welcomed? Neither they nor their parents want to return, Meyer, you fucking NEA tool. They left for a reason. If Mr. Meyer actually cared about the kids, he would want them in the best educational environs possible. Private school vs. failing public school - pretty much a no brainer. I'm sure the parents of those kids REALLY appreciate what Mr. Meyer has done for them on behalf of the NEA, NAACP, and LWV. What part of the Florida Supreme Court's decision did you not understand? A creepy fucker from the Bush family pushed through a law that turned out to be against the state constitution. Picking and choosing what laws to follow (or not) is not how this country is supposed to work. That is how it is going now, but we, the people, can change that. Bushes are above the law since the day they were born. It is bad enough that they can live that way in their private lives. We can not accept it in public life. They MUST follow the law. We can't have it any other way or the USA is doomed. Anyone who can afford to pay for a private school can send their children to one. Those that can't pay must deal with the public school system or seek scholarships or other creative financing. If they don't like the school system they can move to a better one or work to improve the one they are in. If people have children and want to raise them a certain way, they are free to do so. As long as they can pay for it with their own time, effort, and money. (home schooling, part time jobs, etc) Expecting tax money to be made available to pay for private schools is not OK. It doesn't matter if the school is secular or religious. It is WRONG! Isn't personal responsibility, fiscal responsibility, and small government supposed to be the bedrock of the republican values? How come y'all don't hold your leaders accountable? How come y'all get your undies in a bunch when the dem's and the rest of the world try to? How does bailing out of a failing public school system benefit society in general? Please explain. When the next presidential election rolls around let us all remember that "a program Gov. Jeb Bush considered one of his proudest achievements" turned out to be against the Florida constitution. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
AlexCrowley 0 #35 January 6, 2006 I believe Mr Bush had a relative that has at least a couple of skydives. This post is dangerously close to a personal attack upon a fellow skydiver. TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wmw999 2,140 #36 January 6, 2006 The only objectionable thing about voucher systems is that the leftovers, those being the kids with severe ADD, the ones with behavior problems, the disturbed -- none of the voucher schools want them unless they specialize in that (at significantly greater cost), and few will take them. If they're mixed with a large population of higher-achieving students, some economies of scale can allow them to be served. If they aren't, then they are more likely to end up being long-term burdens. Everyone wants the smart kids; everyone wants the kids with parents who care enough to choose a school carefully, and help their kids with homework (or at least make them do it). However, the kids who don't grow up with that advantage are far more likely to end up *just like their parents* if they're in school with kids who are all like them. I don't think we want that. Wendy W.There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #37 January 6, 2006 QuoteI'm not a Florida taxpayer, but if I were, I'd have issue with my tax dollars paying for your kids to attend private school. I've never had any kids and never will. I don't like paying for anyone's kids to go to any school. I'm assuming that the voucher program ends up costing the taxpayer more. Is that the case? If it ends up saving the taxpayers money, then the decision really is heinous. Walt Part of participating in a civilized society is contribution to the greater good of the society. I don't have kids and I don't plan to. I don't mind paying the taxes to support public schools. A well educated population is required to sustain this country. The ideal is that the schools teach kids to be productive, contributing members of society. The ideal is not always achieved. With the un-funded "No Child Left Behind" act the schools have been "dumbed down" quite a bit. Much effort is expended in "teaching the test". It certainly takes away from teaching analytical thought, research skills, and critical thinking. I know this first hand. I work at a school district. The biggest obstacles to successful public education are lazy, ignorant parents and vindictive management. It is really easy for the school administrators to load the classes of teachers they don't like with rotten students. It isn't possible to teach lazy, unmotivated students well. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is. The parents don't discipline the kids, make them do their homework, check their test scores, etc. The blame wrongly goes to the teacher. It is the student and the parents who are responsible. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sen.Blutarsky 0 #38 January 6, 2006 Quotekids who don't grow up with that advantage are far more likely to end up *just like their parents* if they're in school with kids who are all like them. Some might argue that the “leftovers” without special needs will receive greater individual attention in the smaller classes that are created by their former classmates departing for the voucher magnet schools. More focused individual attention on the part of teachers towards students at non-voucher schools with smaller enrollments could very well benefit such leftovers. Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #39 January 6, 2006 Quoteyes but can you imagine living in a society rife with uneducated adults I'm pretty sure that I already do live in such a society. I'm also pretty sure that I live in a society that is actually penalizing people who get educations by sending many of the jobs that they could fill over to India or other countries who have an educated populace with a lower standard of living. A commentary on our "educational system" that is a very well-known dirty little secret is that the whole idea of going to school to get an education is a joke. It's an attitude that is very failure prone. The reason is that potential employers are far more interested in what a person looks like on paper than they are interested in job candidates' actual abilties, because the paper ratings are far easier to measure and compare. Consider the differences between going to college to get the highest GPA possible and approaching college in a way that will result in the best education. They are not even close to being the same thing. In many cases I can maximize my GPA by doing a little research and taking courses from the "easiest" professors and, rather than studying the textbooks before an exam, study copies of their old tests. THAT is the way things are really done in college at the undergraduate level and students who learn that too late tend to graduate toward the rear of the pack. Over the years, that kind of attitude has shifted down into high schools and even elementary schools as parents who know how to play the system instill their knowledge in their kids. An ex-girlfriend who had never been to college thought I was a complete slimeball for teaching her daughter, a high school student, how things are done in college and encouraging her to use the same techniques in high school. The GF really changed her tune, though, when she decided to make a career change and attend college. She told me she was doing every thing I had taught her daughter to do in order to maximize her GPA. Just so you know, I think playing the game is disgusting, but not doing so puts a student at a significant disadvantage. I learned the system fairly late in the game, but still managed an ok GPA while getting my BS in Electrical Engineering. My impression was that many universities, particularly in the technical disciplines, have little interest in educating their students. Education is a sideline. The real emphasis is on research. That's quite a tangent. Back to public schools k-12. I think they do little to produce educated adults largely because of many parents expecting the schools to take on some of their parental responsibilities while absolutely crippling them in terms of enabling educators to provide discipline to their kids. I doubt seriously any approach to funding public schools will make any difference in regards to having an educated society. At least not until our society gets a higher quality of parenting. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #40 January 6, 2006 QuoteI believe Mr Bush had a relative that has at least a couple of skydives. This post is dangerously close to a personal attack upon a fellow skydiver. Riding in a airplane doesn't make you a pilot. You were a passenger. Riding in a boat doesn't make you a captain. You were a passenger. Doing tandem jumps doesn't make you a skydiver. You were a passenger. In my opinion, until you have - 1. jumped out of an aircraft without anybody holding on to you. 2. deployed your own parachute 3. flown it safely to the ground you aren't a skydiver. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #41 January 6, 2006 Well start thinking of ways to make it better or change the constitution, cause like brierebecca said, its in there: Article X.Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #42 January 6, 2006 QuoteThe biggest obstacles to successful public education are lazy, ignorant parents and vindictive management. Absolutely!!!!! QuoteIt is really easy for the school administrators to load the classes of teachers they don't like with rotten students. It isn't possible to teach lazy, unmotivated students well. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is. The parents don't discipline the kids, make them do their homework, check their test scores, etc. The blame wrongly goes to the teacher. It is the student and the parents who are responsible. Absolutely!!!!! The question is does funding that type of crap really contribute to the greater good of society. I think it's questionable at best. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
waltappel 1 #43 January 6, 2006 QuoteWell start thinking of ways to make it better or change the constitution, cause like brierebecca said, its in there: Article X. My thoughts on making the world a better place are largely predicated on me being Supreme Ruler of the Universe. You don't want that. Walt Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
funjumper101 15 #44 January 6, 2006 QuoteQuoteThe biggest obstacles to successful public education are lazy, ignorant parents and vindictive management. Absolutely!!!!! QuoteIt is really easy for the school administrators to load the classes of teachers they don't like with rotten students. It isn't possible to teach lazy, unmotivated students well. It doesn't matter how good the teacher is. The parents don't discipline the kids, make them do their homework, check their test scores, etc. The blame wrongly goes to the teacher. It is the student and the parents who are responsible. Absolutely!!!!! The question is does funding that type of crap really contribute to the greater good of society. I think it's questionable at best. Walt From my experience, the amount of waste in the district I work in is breathtaking. Computer labs get new computers every few years when the teachers are begging for current textbooks, paper, and pencils. Teachers are charged for making more than a certain amount of copies on a copier. It is pathetic. School districts have multi-million dollar budgets. The board of directors is elected. The qualifications required to be a school board member are that you can win a local election. No understanding of education, budgeting, business operations or how school funding works is required. You can be a high school dropout (or even a convicted felon in jail- LA Area, it actually happened) and be elected to a school board. In the private sector no multi-million dollar organization would survive with such unqualified management. What is required to make the system work is a well educated population that holds the board members accountable for the success and/or failure of the district. Most people don't care enough to be informed as to the issues and problems, so the board just does what it wants. As long as nothing controversial happens, they get re-elected. And so it goes... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brierebecca 0 #45 January 6, 2006 QuoteWell start thinking of ways to make it better or change the constitution, cause like brierebecca said, its in there: Article X. Also Article I, section 3. But that's a whole other can of worms. Brie"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #46 January 6, 2006 Huh? Article 1, section 3 is about the senate. Was that a joke? Cause if not, ya lost me. Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sen.Blutarsky 0 #47 January 6, 2006 QuoteArticle I, section 3 FWIW it's the most important part of the Constitution aside from Article I, Section 8, Clause 8. Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
GTAVercetti 0 #48 January 6, 2006 Quote QuoteArticle I, section 3 FWIW it's the most important part of the Constitution aside from Article I, Section 8, Clause 8. Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners! ya know what? I am totally retarded today. I was looking at the wrong state in the first part (article X is education for delaware) and then I went and looked at article I, sec 3 for the United States instead of Florida. I think I need to lay down. But I cannot, I must memorize every state constitution by 4:30! Why yes, my license number is a palindrome. Thank you for noticing. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Sen.Blutarsky 0 #49 January 6, 2006 Witness the power of a presence ... Blutarsky 2008. No Prisoners! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
brierebecca 0 #50 January 6, 2006 From Article 1, section 3 of the Florida Constitution: "There shall be no law respecting the establishment of religion or prohibiting or penalizing the free exercise thereof. Religious freedom shall not justify practices inconsistent with public morals, peace or safety. No revenue of the state or any political subdivision or agency thereof shall ever be taken from the public treasury directly or indirectly in aid of any church, sect, or religious denomination or in aid of any sectarian institution." It's the Bush v. Holmes section, about how vouchers violate the Establishment Clause. We won that case, too. Brie"Ive seen you hump air, hump the floor of the plane, and hump legs. You now have a new nickname: "Black Humper of Death"--yardhippie Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
