jaaska 0 #126 January 8, 2006 Quote I think we are lucky in many ways. You are 100% right in stating that some people will do well no matter where they go and others will not perform anywhere. I think that the group in between the two I just mentioned is the group that would most benefit from an improved school system. I think they're the group that would perform to the level of their peers and the expectations of their teachers. Put those kids - and I believe the majority of children to fall within that category - into a more demanding academic standing and they would probably reap the greatest benefit. Good morning... OK. So you propose that pupils will have better chance in private schools than in public once, right? If something is broken you need to fix it. I do understand that. What I don't understand is your belief (that's what I would call it, since you have absolutely not given any facts/studies/proof why a private schooling would automatically be somehow better than a public one) that public is bad, private is good. For a nation to prosper, you need to have a good overall educational system (including the primary and secondary years). Did you take a look at the PISA results I pointed out earlier? If not, try. If yes, do a little cross reference on nations having public/private schooling and how they did in that international assessment. ( http://www.pisa.oecd.org/dataoecd/25/12/34009000.pdf ) Interesting things you might want to check out on that study: Page 23 on "How It Was Measured and How Students Performed" (charts available on pages 39, 40, 43 etc...) Page 100 on "The Role that Gender and Student Background Characteristics Play in Student Performance in Problem Solving" (a lot of charts and figures available. Eg. p. 103, an interesting figure of "Parental occupational status and student performance in problem solving" on page 108. In short, yes, eg. US did perform below the OECD average, but then again, so did another 18 nations. Like I said, Finland has an all public school system, still it did very well. My point? It's not the question of having private or public school - if you believe in that, that's fine - many people believe in most amazing things. It's a question of having a good schools system. Public education tends to be more equal [for all] than private one. That's why I, personally, like it more. As I stated before, either system can fail or prosper. Why do you think a public school cannot work (when it obviously can, if you take a look at some of those figures I gave you). If you think your system is not working, why don't you think it can be fixed and made better? Have a nice sunday! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TheAnvil 0 #127 January 9, 2006 Terve, Jaaska! Hauska tutustua. Didn't mean to ignore you earlier. Interesting article you've linked us to. I agree that a well educated populace is necessary for a nation to thrive and prosper. I also think that the public education system in America needs to be fixed - not abolished. For children in public education systems that are not working - such as the disctricts in FL from whence the 700 kids in question came - fixes in the future don't help these kids now. Vouchers are a now solution for children whose parents use them. I've not data other than my own experiences both as a student who transferred from a private to a public school and from serving on a scholarship selection committee for a couple of years and seeing the general quality of students coming out of the private systems vs those from the public systems. I interviewed hundreds of kids and the difference was evident. I think the education system in America needs a bit of an overhaul. I really like the way the German system works, with the students separated after Grundshule into the Gymnasium, Realschule, and Fachschule. Don't think that would be very easy to implement here in the US, however. I think a couple of things that would be extremely easy to implement over here would be high school exit exams and adding mathematics, reading comprehension, and U.S. history into the written driver's license examination for non-high school graduates. I'd be in favor of a high school exit exam required for graduation- kind of akin to the German Abitur but not as demanding as everyone would be taking it and not just the college bound folks. If you can't pass it after four years, you stay on for a fifth taking courses related to your weak areas. Anyone taking the fifth year would not be allowed to participate in sports or extra-curricular activities sponsored by the school. If, after the fifth year they fail to pass, they get a certificate of completion but no diploma. The certificate of completion would not meet the minimum requirements for military service or entry into any college. High school kids over here in the US value that driver's license quite highly. Link the ability to get that to having to learn math, science, U.S. history, etc. and you'd immediately have a bunch of highly motivated students. The problem we face over here is multifaceted and requires a multi-pronged effort to overcome. I think the public system can and should be fixed and improved upon. In the interim, I support the vouchers system and am quite sad it has been shackled by the FL SC at the behest of the infernal NEA. Hope you had a great Sunday - and everyone else too. I did four nice jumps at Palatka. Didn't get to Zhills this weekend because one of my tenants had a problem I had to fix, but I enjoy going to Palatka too. Jutellaan toistekin. Moikka. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites kallend 1,662 #128 January 9, 2006 QuoteHigh school kids over here in the US value that driver's license quite highly. Link the ability to get that to having to learn math, science, U.S. history, etc. and you'd immediately have a bunch of highly motivated students. Add in World History and Geography. Citizens should have some idea of why we invade places, and where those places are.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #129 January 9, 2006 The only thing that throws me here is a couple assumptions by the anti-voucher crowd: 1 - Stereotyping - All private schools are snotty, upper crust schools with uniforms and 'outs' and only rich kids. Seems to me that if vouchers were universal, there would be incentive to open private schools catering too all aspects of society. Those that "taught" well would stay in business. Pretty much the target concept of vouchers. 2 - More stereotyping - The assumption that those supporting vouchers automatically assume private=good/public=bad. It's wrong, the pro-vouchers support that parents should be able to have the choice to go elsewhere for their education needs of the kids, especially in the cases where the public school isn't helping that child learn. Nowhere in the voucher concept does it say that parents CAN'Tan choose to use the local public school. I still don't see why letting school choice and the 'dollars set aside for each kids education' reside with the parents and not some politicians or faceless giant teachers unions/organizations. Here's an example of potential abuse by horrid parents - school says to the bad parent "bring your vouchers here and we'll get you a kick back". So some kind of criteria/standards do need to be established. Union run monopolies are bad. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #130 January 9, 2006 QuoteAdd in World History and Geography. Citizens should have some idea of why we invade places, and where those places are. of course, all political indoctrination should start as early as possible - it's already in the NEA handbook ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites pirana 0 #131 January 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm not a Florida taxpayer, but if I were, I'd have issue with my tax dollars paying for your kids to attend private school. I've never had any kids and never will. I don't like paying for anyone's kids to go to any school. Isn't that kind of self-centered, Walt? Someone paid for you to go to school. We pay for the education of all children--our own and others--because they are the future. I only had one child. I don't resent helping pay for those who have two or more. That said, I'm not sure I agree with the voucher system. It seems to me that the money is better spent improving the system we have. rl Well said, and just the tip of the iceberg. How about if I decide to withhold the portion of my tax dollars that go toward fire protection and opt out of that particular system? Same with library funding, wildlife preservation, regulation of airspace, etc. You don't get to cherry pick on most taxes or the public services they provide." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites rehmwa 2 #132 January 9, 2006 QuoteHow about if I decide to withhold the portion of my tax dollars that go toward fire protection and opt out of that particular system? . If your local FD starts to fight only fires in certain neighborhoods, spends the money on non-firefighting issues, starts to go around and do tons of fundraising, buys special fire trucks because one house in the neighborhood build behind a tall tree,..... Watch how fast the city closes them down and brings in private contractors for the purpose. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 Next Page 6 of 6 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
TheAnvil 0 #127 January 9, 2006 Terve, Jaaska! Hauska tutustua. Didn't mean to ignore you earlier. Interesting article you've linked us to. I agree that a well educated populace is necessary for a nation to thrive and prosper. I also think that the public education system in America needs to be fixed - not abolished. For children in public education systems that are not working - such as the disctricts in FL from whence the 700 kids in question came - fixes in the future don't help these kids now. Vouchers are a now solution for children whose parents use them. I've not data other than my own experiences both as a student who transferred from a private to a public school and from serving on a scholarship selection committee for a couple of years and seeing the general quality of students coming out of the private systems vs those from the public systems. I interviewed hundreds of kids and the difference was evident. I think the education system in America needs a bit of an overhaul. I really like the way the German system works, with the students separated after Grundshule into the Gymnasium, Realschule, and Fachschule. Don't think that would be very easy to implement here in the US, however. I think a couple of things that would be extremely easy to implement over here would be high school exit exams and adding mathematics, reading comprehension, and U.S. history into the written driver's license examination for non-high school graduates. I'd be in favor of a high school exit exam required for graduation- kind of akin to the German Abitur but not as demanding as everyone would be taking it and not just the college bound folks. If you can't pass it after four years, you stay on for a fifth taking courses related to your weak areas. Anyone taking the fifth year would not be allowed to participate in sports or extra-curricular activities sponsored by the school. If, after the fifth year they fail to pass, they get a certificate of completion but no diploma. The certificate of completion would not meet the minimum requirements for military service or entry into any college. High school kids over here in the US value that driver's license quite highly. Link the ability to get that to having to learn math, science, U.S. history, etc. and you'd immediately have a bunch of highly motivated students. The problem we face over here is multifaceted and requires a multi-pronged effort to overcome. I think the public system can and should be fixed and improved upon. In the interim, I support the vouchers system and am quite sad it has been shackled by the FL SC at the behest of the infernal NEA. Hope you had a great Sunday - and everyone else too. I did four nice jumps at Palatka. Didn't get to Zhills this weekend because one of my tenants had a problem I had to fix, but I enjoy going to Palatka too. Jutellaan toistekin. Moikka. Vinny the Anvil Post Traumatic Didn't Make The Lakers Syndrome is REAL JACKASS POWER!!!!!! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,662 #128 January 9, 2006 QuoteHigh school kids over here in the US value that driver's license quite highly. Link the ability to get that to having to learn math, science, U.S. history, etc. and you'd immediately have a bunch of highly motivated students. Add in World History and Geography. Citizens should have some idea of why we invade places, and where those places are.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #129 January 9, 2006 The only thing that throws me here is a couple assumptions by the anti-voucher crowd: 1 - Stereotyping - All private schools are snotty, upper crust schools with uniforms and 'outs' and only rich kids. Seems to me that if vouchers were universal, there would be incentive to open private schools catering too all aspects of society. Those that "taught" well would stay in business. Pretty much the target concept of vouchers. 2 - More stereotyping - The assumption that those supporting vouchers automatically assume private=good/public=bad. It's wrong, the pro-vouchers support that parents should be able to have the choice to go elsewhere for their education needs of the kids, especially in the cases where the public school isn't helping that child learn. Nowhere in the voucher concept does it say that parents CAN'Tan choose to use the local public school. I still don't see why letting school choice and the 'dollars set aside for each kids education' reside with the parents and not some politicians or faceless giant teachers unions/organizations. Here's an example of potential abuse by horrid parents - school says to the bad parent "bring your vouchers here and we'll get you a kick back". So some kind of criteria/standards do need to be established. Union run monopolies are bad. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #130 January 9, 2006 QuoteAdd in World History and Geography. Citizens should have some idea of why we invade places, and where those places are. of course, all political indoctrination should start as early as possible - it's already in the NEA handbook ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pirana 0 #131 January 9, 2006 QuoteQuoteI'm not a Florida taxpayer, but if I were, I'd have issue with my tax dollars paying for your kids to attend private school. I've never had any kids and never will. I don't like paying for anyone's kids to go to any school. Isn't that kind of self-centered, Walt? Someone paid for you to go to school. We pay for the education of all children--our own and others--because they are the future. I only had one child. I don't resent helping pay for those who have two or more. That said, I'm not sure I agree with the voucher system. It seems to me that the money is better spent improving the system we have. rl Well said, and just the tip of the iceberg. How about if I decide to withhold the portion of my tax dollars that go toward fire protection and opt out of that particular system? Same with library funding, wildlife preservation, regulation of airspace, etc. You don't get to cherry pick on most taxes or the public services they provide." . . . the lust for power can be just as completely satisfied by suggesting people into loving their servitude as by flogging them and kicking them into obedience." -- Aldous Huxley Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #132 January 9, 2006 QuoteHow about if I decide to withhold the portion of my tax dollars that go toward fire protection and opt out of that particular system? . If your local FD starts to fight only fires in certain neighborhoods, spends the money on non-firefighting issues, starts to go around and do tons of fundraising, buys special fire trucks because one house in the neighborhood build behind a tall tree,..... Watch how fast the city closes them down and brings in private contractors for the purpose. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
