North Korea and its refugees -- when will we finally do something?

[masterblaster72 0]

Being out of town these days I have the chance to watch some television I otherwise wouldn't see. I saw this documentary about North Korean refugees crossing into China on PBS last night and it made an impression on me.

One thing that's absolutely unacceptable in the world today is what Kim Jong Il is doing to his people. At the end of the year, by his order, the UN World Food Program will cease delivering goods to NK, which 1/3 of the population depends upon.

It is the official policy of the Chinese government toward refugees that escape from NK to China to repatriate them, resulting in their certain torture/death.

The UN has done very little about it, and we and our allies in the region have done little out of fear that NK will drop out of the 6-nation nuclear talks.

Using the same logic as we did to invade Iraq should apply to North Korea as well, but in reality it's a whole lot more complex than that since our allies would not forgive us for destabilizing the region were we to invade.

There's a genocide happening in North Korea, a systematic, ongoing one that has been happening for years, and we've done nothing. I think history will repeat itself when we feel the guilt of uncovering the death camps of North Korea once Kim Jong Il's regime finally does fall.

It isn't much, but here's something that we can do.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[Guest]

Sheesh. You're kidding, right?

Do the words "A billion screaming Chinese" mean anything to you? It's a much more complex and volatile situation than Iraq (I'd rather see Syria seriously threatened with invasion, though, but not Iran - that would be a serious mistake, Persians aren't Arabs. They're a good deal tougher and smarter [Saddam found that out]).

China doesn't like North Korea one bit, other than that they're communists too.

Aside from political pressure on Beijing, what can we do? The situation in the DPRK won't change from external pressure. The people there will have to rise up and fight.

It wouldn't surprise me that the ROK is trying to help make that happen. I certainly would if I were them.

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[SudsyFist 0]

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One thing that's absolutely unacceptable in the world today is what Kim Jong Il is doing to his people.

The extremity of his demagoguery is chilling. I consider that to be his biggest crime; everything else seems to trickle down from here.

Take the insular nature of the DPRK for instance, a result of its Juche ideology. The fact is that they are unable to consistently produce enough food to sustain the population. Simply by being more open to international diplomatic and trade relations, they'd be able to tip the scales away from the rampant starvation they've come to know.

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Using the same logic as we did to invade Iraq should apply to North Korea as well, but in reality it's a whole lot more complex than that since our allies would not forgive us for destabilizing the region were we to invade.

Not to mention that it wouldn't be such a walk in the park. The commitment to a war with the DPRK is far more huge than anything we've undertaken in decades. Some say comparable to Vietnam, whereas others say that it would make Vietnam look like a playground scuffle.

Oh, and there's no petrol to be had there.

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There's a genocide happening in North Korea,

Main Entry: geno·cide
Pronunciation: 'je-n&-"sId
Function: noun
: the deliberate and systematic destruction of a racial, political, or cultural group

The DPRK isn't committing genocide; its neglect of the needs of its people (in favor of its ideologies), however, is having a similar effect. It's a very sad state of affairs they have going on there, but until Kim Jong Il is no longer in the driver's seat, I doubt we'll see much movement here.

[masterblaster72 0]

I agree with what you say, but here I beg to differ with this:

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The DPRK isn't committing genocide

Not genocide in the ethnic sense of what Turks did to Armenians or what Hutu did to Tutsi, but more like the political aspect of the definition of genocide, similar to Cambodia's killing fields.

Have a look at this...

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[SudsyFist 0]

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similar to Cambodia's killing fields.

I see the parallel. Definitely not the same, but I see the parallel.

I suppose it's easier for me to use the term, "genocide," when there are large-scale massacres. The incarcerations don't really apply, and the starvation of the people, in my not-so-well-informed opinion, really has less to do with political retribution than it does with resource scarcity and class heirarchy.

Make no mistake, I acknowledge and enormously disagree with the vicious oppression of any expression that strays from the state-mandated ideology -- vicious is an understatement -- but I just have a hard time classifying it as genocide, that's all.

[masterblaster72 0]

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The people there will have to rise up and fight.

The chances of that happening are zilch. People there aren't even allowed to leave their counties unless they're in with the government. There's no way for people to organize an uprising. Nor would they even have the ability or arms to do it -- one part of this film showed a hidden cam on some kids circling people dining in a public area and picking up crumbs from the ground...too much of the population is concerned with getting its next meal.

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It wouldn't surprise me that the ROK is trying to help make that happen. I certainly would if I were them.

Not saying that ROK likes things the way they are, but it would surprise me if ROK is facilitating a North Korean revolution. ROK is afraid of a regime collapse in NK because it would mean millions of starving neighbors knocking on their doors. It would be an instant humanitarian crisis for the region.


PS your article on high altitude jumps was great reading, hope to do some myself one day.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[lauras 0]

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The people there will have to rise up and fight.

That's my father's fondest wish. The reality is that the general population is so malnourished, 18 year old boys are the size of the average US 8 year old. You'd have an army of starving children, armed with nothing but rocks.

My dad did quite a lot of work in conjunction with the Red Cross, coordinating agricultural education and donations of fertilizer to the north under the aegis of the ROK's Sunshine Policy. After several trips under strict supervision, he finally managed to get the escort to drive by his childhood neighborhood in Pyongyang. The thing that haunts him is that it looks EXACTLY the same way it did over 50 years ago.

[Channman 2]

>Using the same logic as we did to invade Iraq should apply to North Korea as well, but in reality it's a whole lot more complex than that since our allies would not forgive us for destabilizing the region were we to invade.

Maybe we could all sing a few bars of "All we are saying, is give peace a chance." After all its not hard to imagine if you try, you may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one.

Why not just take out the Nuclear Power plant that should slow him down for a few years. Sure we will take some heat from the U.N. but what will they do other than slap us with some resolution thay can't back up. But the starvation thing, well there is not much we can do about that.

Stalin, Poe Pot, and many others used that tool to kill millions with little responce from free nations.

[Newbie 0]

I saw that documentary too - harrowing indeed. What surprises me is knowing what we do, we still satirise and laugh at Kim Jong Il (for instance his fascination with the movie industry, how he is portrayed and parodied in Team America etc). It's pretty strange to me. I agree with sudsy that by it's definition it's not genocide, but it's right on the line. Allowing people to starve to death and torturing and killing those who won't tow the party line is up there with the worst of them. The worst thing is it's going to get far worse before it gets better for the people of North Korea, and that's regardless of any intervention from the international community.

"Skydiving is a door"
Happythoughts

[JohnRich 4]

Why should we?

As soon as we did something about it to set the North Koreans free, feed them, and make them prosperous, everyone else in the world would bitch about America meddling in their affairs. Howard Dean would declare that it's a war we can't win. John Kerry would call for immediate withdrawal. Rep. Murtha would demand a timetable for success. And all the other liberals would declare that Bush lied about the fact that North Koreans were starving and oppressed, and therefore we shouldn't really have gone there anyway.

So screw 'em - let 'em starve.

France and the liberal movie stars can help 'em out if they wish.

However, if Bill Clinton was put in charge of the problem by the U.N., then all the aforementioned people would declare the facts to be perfectly correct, would be 100% in support of invasion, and anyone who disagreed would be branded a racist.

[SudsyFist 0]

Does it itch?

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[jeiber 0]

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Using the same logic as we did to invade Iraq should apply to North Korea as well

Years ago, yes. We should have invaded, but protesters would have said, 'but they don't have wmd's, we can't invade!'.

A war with NK right now would be WW III.... and we would likely lose... they have home field advantage and they don't have liberals crying foul over their tactics.

Jeff

Shhh... you hear that sound? That's the sound of nobody caring!

[Frenchy68 0]

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Why should we?

As soon as we did something about it to set the North Koreans free, feed them, and make them prosperous, everyone else in the world would bitch about America meddling in their affairs. Howard Dean would declare that it's a war we can't win. John Kerry would call for immediate withdrawal. Rep. Murtha would demand a timetable for success. And all the other liberals would declare that Bush lied about the fact that North Koreans were starving and oppressed, and therefore we shouldn't really have gone there anyway.

So screw 'em - let 'em starve.

France and the liberal movie stars can help 'em out if they wish.

However, if Bill Clinton was put in charge of the problem by the U.N., then all the aforementioned people would declare the facts to be perfectly correct, would be 100% in support of invasion, and anyone who disagreed would be branded a racist.

You're hogging the joint again, John. Pass it around.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[Guest]

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You're hogging the joint again, John. Pass it around.

The correct term, sir, is "Bogarting"...

mh

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"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[rehmwa 2]

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However, if Bill Clinton was put in charge of the problem by the U.N., then all the aforementioned people would declare the facts to be perfectly correct, would be 100% in support of invasion, and anyone who disagreed would be branded a racist.

What's comforting, though, is that a different group of people would take up the contentious side of the argument. And use the exact same arguments.

So it all balances out. Remember - nobody can do anything right at any time - no matter what their intentions.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[masterblaster72 0]

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Howard Dean would declare that it's a war we can't win. John Kerry would call for immediate withdrawal. Rep. Murtha would demand a timetable for success

I thought human rights is something that most colors of the political spectrum could see eye to eye on. Not to mention that our president uses terms like "liberty" and "freedom" every five words in his speeches...you'd think that we'd actually fight for what the words mean rather than reduce them to empty war mantras.

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So screw 'em - let 'em starve.

Nice. But definitely do get worked up over stuff that really does matter, like "Christmas" vs. "Holiday" verbiage.

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France and the liberal movie stars can help 'em out if they wish.

However, if Bill Clinton was put in charge of the problem by the U.N., then all the aforementioned people would declare the facts to be perfectly correct, would be 100% in support of invasion, and anyone who disagreed would be branded a racist.

Ok, you don't like LIBERALS. You make that abundantly clear. But I don't think doing something to help refugees from the most oppressive country in the world is a liberal/conservative/republicrat cause. It's a human one, and one that we should act on if we are to be morally consistent in our actions.

But since you bring it up, I personally do not know one liberal that is against the war in Afghanistan. What's right is right, no matter who the commander in chief is when the war is waged. Afghanistan is right. 2100 dead after "mission accomplished" for a *very* tenuous cause results in lots of debate, and rightfully so.

I also don't personally know one liberal that thinks along such binary lines like "democrat/good, republican/bad." I think that's you projecting your mode of thought.

How about the North Korean refugees in China? I believe there's something we can and should do there, that's what the question is.

...never mind.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[masterblaster72 0]

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A war with NK right now would be WW III

For that reason, war with them isn't practical. But I think ensuring asylum for NK's refugees is completely doable.

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and we would likely lose

I disagree. I'm sure there are plenty of troops that would defect the moment they get the chance. Just my humble, civilian opinion.

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they don't have liberals crying foul over their tactics

Again: 2100 dead after "mission accomplished" for a *very* tenuous cause results in lots of debate, and rightfully so.

And it's not only liberals crying foul. Military experts like this man, for example, are pretty disgusted too.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[SpeedRacer 1]

Kim Jong Il Tribute page evidently some people think he's doing a great job.

I'm so roneryyy...!

Speed Racer
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[JohnRich 4]

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How about the North Korean refugees in China? I believe there's something we can and should do there...

It's easy to point to some wrong and say someone should do something about it. But the practical reality of dealing with North Korea and China are another matter.

But I'm all ears. Lay out your plan. What do you want done?

[masterblaster72 0]

In short and at the very least, we can start by taking it more seriously and making it a diplomatic issue and using our diplomatic ability to negotiate with China NOT to send the refugees back to North Korea, perhaps by giving them some kind of incentive. At the same time, we would need to make it clear to the Chinese government that it's about saving lives and that we're not trying to create a watershed of refugees as a political strategy.

Easier said than done, but I think it's possible.

If an agreement can be reached there, we can set the example by granting asylum to the refugees and collaborate with other countries, mainly South Korea and Japan, to do the same.

Be humble, ask questions, listen, learn, follow the golden rule, talk when necessary, and know when to shut the fuck up.

[JohnRich 4]

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using our diplomatic ability to negotiate with China NOT to send the refugees back to North Korea... granting asylum to the refugees and collaborate with other countries, mainly South Korea and Japan, to do the same.

Sounds nice. Odds of success? Slim.

China isn't anxious to piss-off North Korea, no matter how bad they treat their citizens. They sell a shit-load of military goods, and don't want to kill the goose that lays the golden egg. And China doesn't exactly have a great record of giving a damn about such things.

South Korea might be willing to take them, if you can get them there. But China collaborates with North Korea, not South Korea. So that would be another slap in the face.

Japan, I'm not so sure about. They don't like outsiders. And the Koreans aren't real fond of Japan, given what was done to them by occupying Jap forces in WWII. But a North Korean might see putting up with Japanese racism as a lesser evil than returning to his home country.

We return Cubans to their home country, even though we don't like the Cuban government. So I don't know what moral ground we have to tell someone else to do differently.