Skydivers and Morality: A Practical Discourse

[Zenister 0]

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Unlike you he seems to have a grasp of the reality of someone going in at terminal... there will be no usable organs left...

The discussion has moved from the specifics of the Atlanta incident to one of a more general nature.

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Do the right thing

and they Did.. they went on with their lives, when it was obvious (to those who were even aware of the incident) there was nothing left to do to help the victim..

How many showed up the next morning to volunteer to help the sheriff conduct the search?

well "General Nature" isnt under discussion.. the question was not " what if someone could not be found" but "what if there is a body out in the woods"

it doesnt matter if your talking about this specific incident or not.. there is a HUGE difference between searching for survivors and searching for a body..

showed up the next morning? why should they? did the police ask for help? would they have even accepted if offered? in most cases the answer is NO, unless you have specific SAR training.. and at that point it really doesnt matter if the body is found in 2 hours 2 days or 2 years... dead is still dead..

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[RhondaLea 3]

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That's not at all what he said.

I don't think it's up to you to speak for what billvon meant.

a) It's not for you to put words in his mouth.
b) This is a public discussion board.
c) You don't get to decide what I post here.
d) If he has a problem with my post, he'll let me know.

[elided due to degeneration]

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Having the good judgment not to be a narcissistic drama queen (always at the center of every crisis) does have an upside.

Wanting to help people in trouble, is not being a narcissistic drama queen.

Wanting to help, isn't. "Helping" if you don't have the skills to do it effectively most certainly is.

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Is that how you would characterize doctors and nurses?

No, but it's how I characterize non-professionals who do more harm than good by thinking that they have to be at the center of the action.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[PhreeZone 15]

When someone goes in at WFFC jumping only stops if the body presents a hazard to jump operations. An annoucement is made at the start of the nightly party and everyone goes on with their night for the most part. Close friends and family grieve but for the remaining 95% of the people there, they continue on. What impact does a complete stranger death have on them... none really.

From now on what I suggest is a nationwide paging system. At the time that any skydiver is suspected of dieing a page is to be sent out. Jump operations must suspend at all DZ's in a 250 mile radius for the rest of the day and all night time activities must be canceled. Everyone at those DZ's must be sent home to reflect on the death of the jumper. Jump operations and socializing may only resume after each one of the victims family members gives their written concent that they are ok with the resumption of those activities. DZ's outside that 250 mile radius must suspend jump operations for the remainer of the day and eliminate socializing activites that night.

/sarcasm

How many people here have actually been trained in SAR? Some of the First responce people I know party harder then anyone else after they have to deal with a very disturbing scene. What do you think seeing a body after a terminal impact is going to look like? Not every skydiver will be able to handle that. Do you really want to have those people out looking for a body?

Do you stop and pay your respects every time you drive by a potentially fatal car accident? Do you push your way past the law officers to try and assist the victim in those cases too?

I think what we have is another example of people thinking thier morals are better then everyone else and passing judgement because of that.

I'll state it here and for the record. If I bounce there better be one hell of a party that night. Toast one in my name and have at it.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[billvon 2,442]

>We, as a sport, do need to be aware of the face we show the public.

And if you want to consider the PR aspects of a fatality, no problem. I'm sure if you were there, and you voiced your opinion, people would have listened. But you weren't. They may have decided that a party was the best way of dealing with his death. Their decision.

Note to all - if I ever go in, I want everyone to have a party. A big one. If you can't find the body, don't sweat it. I won't care.

[RhondaLea 3]

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When someone goes in at WFFC jumping only stops if the body presents a hazard to jump operations. An annoucement is made at the start of the nightly party and everyone goes on with their night for the most part. Close friends and family grieve but for the remaining 95% of the people there, they continue on. What impact does a complete stranger death have on them... none really.

From now on what I suggest is a nationwide paging system. At the time that any skydiver is suspected of dieing a page is to be sent out. Jump operations must suspend at all DZ's in a 250 mile radius for the rest of the day and all night time activities must be canceled. Everyone at those DZ's must be sent home to reflect on the death of the jumper. Jump operations and socializing may only resume after each one of the victims family members gives their written concent that they are ok with the resumption of those activities. DZ's outside that 250 mile radius must suspend jump operations for the remainer of the day and eliminate socializing activites that night.

/sarcasm

How many people here have actually been trained in SAR? Some of the First responce people I know party harder then anyone else after they have to deal with a very disturbing scene. What do you think seeing a body after a terminal impact is going to look like? Not every skydiver will be able to handle that. Do you really want to have those people out looking for a body?

Do you stop and pay your respects every time you drive by a potentially fatal car accident? Do you push your way past the law officers to try and assist the victim in those cases too?

I think what we have is another example of people thinking thier morals are better then everyone else and passing judgement because of that.

I'll state it here and for the record. If I bounce there better be one hell of a party that night. Toast one in my name and have at it.

Concise, coherent and well worth repeating.



rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[jumpergirl 0]

I was there and while I agree that it was not right to continue with the big party that night, it went on as planned for whatever reason. What I find even more wrong was an individual at the constume party dressed as a tandem master with a blow up doll for a passenger. While I would imagine his costume was pre-planned, it should have been forgotten the instant we knew something, ANYTHING, went wrong on a tandem jump earlier that day. I guess not everyone knew what had happened until the next day, but I find it hard to believe. Ok, so there were 300 people there. When the police cars and ambulance came to the front of the hanger, wouldn't someone ask why there were there?

My heart is still hurt over this incident. I didn't know the man, and only caught a glimpse of him as he was wheeled out to the plane. But, my heart will continue to ache for him, his family and friends, the TM, the camera man, the other guy on the jump, the people in the plane helping them out, and anyone else effected by this.

The party was in poor taste but a decison was made and how many skydivers do we know that will turn down a big party?

[JoeBobinNC 0]

I believe the right thing for a DZO to do in a situation like this is to immediately make an announcement about the fatality and suspend jump operations for the day. Especially if a student goes in. If some one dies and a member of the drop zone's staff and the drop zone's gear is involved, I believe it would be just plain reckless to continue to jump that day until a preliminary investigation is complete.

If a member of my family was killed doing a tandem and the DZ continued to operate that day I would be very upset. If I came back that night and there was a party being thrown while my loved ones body was still missing I'd kill everyone there and burn the place to the fucking ground.

I don't know what the policies at either of the drop zones I jump at are, but I'd really hope they would show more compassion and class than the place that was involved in this incident did.

It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.

[jumpergirl 0]

Well put.

I was shocked that jumping continued on Saturday. I thought out of respect for the tandem passenger (unfortunately I still do not know his name), jumping would have been stopped immeditely. I was glad to know jumping was suspended on Sunday. Over all, this particular dz is a great place and I enjoyed being there, minus this. I do not know their policies, but I do hope they rewrite them now.

[PhreeZone 15]

Ask your DZ's their policy... I'll almost put money on that jumping would continue if its a a turbine DZ.

I've been on site for at least 4 fatalities at 2 DZ's. Only time jumping stopped was to allow the ambulance to cross the runway to work the accident scene. I was first responder in one of those and as soon as I talked to his wife I knew that life must go on and things needed to resume as normal.

Here is a situation for you to think about. Some one hooks in and busts themselves up really good and gets hauled away via medivac. Should jumping continue? If they are in the hospital do you think they are thinking "I think jumping should stop since I hurt myself"? If they die in route or off the DZ should jumping still continue even if its been some time since they left? Things are not as black and white as people here is trying to paint them.

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[PhreeZone 15]

Zhills used to keep jumping after a fatality, its been a while since I've been there. Ask TK what his policy is, you will problly be surprised. Middle of the winter season and someone dies in the morning do you seriously think they will shut the dropzone down for the entire day?

Yesterday is history
And tomorrow is a mystery

Parachutemanuals.com

[Lindsey 0]

...and do you think that people who are *truly* grieving a person's death could care less what a bunch of jumpers are doing with their Saturday night? I doubt that we're THAT important to them.

linz

--
A conservative is just a liberal who's been mugged. A liberal is just a conservative who's been to jail

[JoeBobinNC 0]

Up jumpers are on their own as far as i'm concerned they have been trained and know the risks. But when a student dies shit better come to a screeching halt untill the cause of the mishap is determined. They come to the DZ and don't know jack shit trusting the DZO and instructors to train them properly and mitigate the risk involved to the greatest extent possible. As a DZO I would not be comfortable at all until I knew WTF went wrong. Did some crazy person get loose in the gear room and sabotage my equipment? Is the new packer I hired paking some serious mals? Was my instructor negligent? These are all questions I need answers to before I'm letting students back in the air.

Look, I've been in military aviation for 10 years, and every time a bird goes down due to anything other than hostile fire, fatality or not, we take a fleet wide break to validate our procedures and verify that there isn't an underlying problem with our equipment. If we can do that and still provide assets to defend the country, a DZO can sure as shit stop operations for a day and canx a costume party until some poor bastard's remains are pulled out of the woods.

To do anything else is unprofessional, reckless, callous, and stupid.

It doesn't matter if a cat is black or white, as long as it catches mice.

[RhondaLea 3]

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To do anything else is unprofessional, reckless, callous, and stupid.

Says you.

What you fail to see is that most skydiving accidents analogize to "hostile fire" not to "anything other than." There aren't that many fatalities that arise from causes that are not "operator error." Some, but not many.

Packers don't generally "pack serious mals" and most packing-induced malfunctions end with a non-eventful reserve ride, unless the jumper fails to initiate appropriate EPs.

Crazy people loose in the gear room is a paranoid fantasy.

An instructor whose student went in probably isn't going to feel like jumping again, but I once watched an instructor who was also a doctor walk back from the landing area with blood up to his elbows--the blood of one of his friends--and after he washed off the blood, he went back to talk to the young jumpers who had come from the other side of the world for his skills camp. He told them they could stop jumping if they felt better about it, but that it would be much harder to get in the airplane the following morning. They kept jumping.

We know from experience that making a jump after a fatality--even, and perhaps especially, when it is a friend who has gone in--is therapeutic and healing for those who are left behind. People who walk off the dz after a fatality sometimes never return.

And the party had nothing to do with safety procedures. We have one theory that it would have been good public relations to cancel it, and your theory that it is somehow disrespectful to not grieve in a situation where you are not even aware that a fatality has occurred.

Finally, even if everyone had known...cancelling the party was not going to make the body turn up any sooner than it did.

We're talking about a sport in which death is taken as a given. We know we're going to have a certain number of fatalities in a year, and that it can happen to any of us--even students sign a waiver that says skydiving can result in serious injury and death. To fail to accept the reality of this sport is disrespectful in a way that going on with life in the face of death is not.

rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Rhondalea, we dont agree on so many different things on these forums, however Ive been shown several times recently just the type of person you are. You are resonable, smart and compassionate. Thank you for posting what you have in this thread. Some of the people there , have not been able to post due to the way they have dealt with things or we feel it is not our place, hence why I deleted my post. I deleted because , you have said everything I want to. Thank you.

To the others that are speculating about the family, the DZO and the jumpers.... I have little to say except , if you werent there, you have no idea, and even if we were there, we still really have no idea.

There is not ONE person who was directly or indirectly involved who is not grieving in their own way. Until you have walked in their shoes you can not begrudge us, esp without the facts.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[RhondaLea 3]

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Rhondalea, we dont agree on so many different things on these forums,

We agree on a lot of things.

But on one subject, I was just being pissy about the delivery, and I took what you were saying out of context.

This is certainly not on-topic for this thread, but you deserve an apology from me, and this is it.

I'm sorry.

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...however Ive been shown several times recently just the type of person you are. You are resonable, smart and compassionate.

Actually, I'm a royal pain in the ass. Ask anyone with whom I don't agree and even some of those with whom I do.

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To the others that are speculating about the family, the DZO and the jumpers.... I have little to say except , if you werent there, you have no idea, and even if we were there, we still really have no idea.

Amen.

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There is not ONE person who was directly or indirectly involved who is not grieving in their own way. Until you have walked in their shoes you can not begrudge us, esp without the facts.

Amen twice.



rl

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[artistcalledian 0]

some people work everything down to "will my actions make a difference" which is the "we might as well party because NOT partying won't bring him back" attitude, and some people think that its ok to show a little respect for somebody who has just died in a freak accident by saying "we won't have a party tonight because its a bit crass and self centered after whats just happened"

i now personally think they should have at least cancelled the party, they could have a party any other day of their lives, would it really have put them out to make a nice gesture for one night? but i guess people want to take emotion out of it and just rationalize it down to making any difference or not

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drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[carternick79 0]

Okay,
This conversation is going in circles.... Like I said before I was one of the guys on that plane along with my other buddies helping the TM and the victim BOTH of which were my friends out of the plane. As far as the guy at the costume party acting as a TM, I can probably be safe in saying he never knew that happened until the next day like most of the people that I talked to... Myself and some of my buddies did attend the party but we did not party our asses off after all that is what EVERYONE was there for was to jump and have a good time.... I can say that the family was not out there helping the authorities look for the body that I know of besides the rescue team didn't want help, I know cause I asked a couple of times if there was something I could do. All they wanted was the videos from the jump so that they could try and get a better perspective on where to look FROM THE HELICOPTER!!!!! Listen people, there is nothing any of us can do now and sitting here bitchin at each other cause someone thinks it was disgraceful to carry on is useless...

*** That what does not kill me only makes me stronger and that what makes me stronger only feeds my hunger ***

[carternick79 0]

Just like a couple of other people have said on this thread, everyone deals with grief in their own way. I am dealing with it the way I now how to just like everyone else who WAS on the plane and who WAS waiting with his family for them to land.

*** That what does not kill me only makes me stronger and that what makes me stronger only feeds my hunger ***

[lisamariewillbe 1]

Calledian,

You are not aware of what the families wishes were only the DZO and authorities were. Please read what Nick has said. People who werent there and most who were there have no idea what happened. The DZO , and videographer of the jump spoke with the family for quite a while, we were all invited to the funeral by the wife, and some of the family that "lustforlife" has is now considering doing a tandem themselves.

There are several threads on this matter, and on this incredible skydiver. "Lustforlife" was more of a skydiver then anyone else Ive ever met. His joy and his smile will remain in my heart for as long as I breathe. We may not have known him long, but he will remain in everyones heart that he met forever.

Sudsy Fist: i don't think i'd ever say this
Sudsy Fist: but you're looking damn sudsydoable in this

[namgrunt 0]

LISTEN UP AND LISTEN GOOD PEOPLE

out of respect for the victim and the TM

STFY

wait till the investigation is complete
to speculate..is cruel
most of the comments posted here are not correct or accurate

if you were not there.not on the jump.victoms family or the TM
what can you know
every event weather injury of death is differant

lets give it a rest till the facts are known

thats my 3 cents worth

now carry on

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[RhondaLea 3]

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Okay,
This conversation is going in circles....

Yeah...it is. Because some people seem to have an agenda that has nothing to do with the issue at hand.

Several agendas, actually, none of which seem to have anything at all to do with the man who died.

I'll tell you what, in a situation where I could do something, I'd do it. If it meant slogging through a swamp in the middle of the night, or sitting by a dead body until someone with a gurney came along, or whatever else I was called on to do, I wouldn't hesitate.

(In the situation where I was actually called on to do something, I did my job as to the situation, and then I went back to the job I was doing before the fatality, as did everyone else who was involved.)

But to ask anyone to bow to someone else's idea of propriety in order to make a good impression on the public or just because it fulfills some notion of how things should be...

I give up. This has become a stupid argument, and I can only hope that none of those people who are arguing the other side ever own or manage a dropzone.

I have a feeling, however, that those people who are arguing the other side don't speak on behalf of the family of the man who died. I think it would be interesting to know what they really think about it all, not what some of you think they're thinking.

It seems to me that a man who chose to go on with his life--even in the face of the terrible hand he'd been dealt--would be surrounded by some very pragmatic family members who would be more inclined to buy into the "life goes on" idea than some contrived display of grief. After all, someone had to bring him to the airport to make the jump.

rl

Edited to add: I didn't see the two posts preceding mine when I made this. Nonetheless, I'm going to let it stand, but hereafter, as I said, I give up.

If you don't know where you're going, you should know where you came from. Gullah Proverb

[Chiquita 12]

It funny how in one post you say

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I don't think it's up to you to speak for what billvon meant.

and then in the very next post you say

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I think that's what the family wanted.

So it is ok for you to speak for some one else but not for anybody else to do so.

"Ego is the anesthesia that deadens the pain of stupidity"

[artistcalledian 0]

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Calledian,

You are not aware of what the families wishes were only the DZO and authorities were. Please read what Nick has said. People who werent there and most who were there have no idea what happened. The DZO , and videographer of the jump spoke with the family for quite a while, we were all invited to the funeral by the wife, and some of the family that "lustforlife" has is now considering doing a tandem themselves.

There are several threads on this matter, and on this incredible skydiver. "Lustforlife" was more of a skydiver then anyone else Ive ever met. His joy and his smile will remain in my heart for as long as I breathe. We may not have known him long, but he will remain in everyones heart that he met forever.

if the party people had known about the death, even if the parents wanted the party to go ahead, i still think its in very poor taste.... if they didn't know about the death, then they didn't know, so party on. I know i couldn't and would not go looking for a dead person, and i also wouldn't feel like partying if i was on a DZ where some poor sod lost their life, but i guess some people can, its up to them... but my opinion is, if they knew about the death, its pretty shitty that they couldn't cancell one lousy party for a show of remorse/respect

Are futile acts of respect and remorse frowned upon these days?

________________________________________
drive it like you stole it and f*ck the police

[okalb 79]

I witnessed numerous deaths at numerous DZs what I have found is that at the small DZs, jumping stops and everyone pretty much goes home. At the larger DZs jumping continues as well as the festivites and everything else.

At the WFFC every year at least one person goes in. When it happens, jumping continues. There is an announcement made that night IN THE PARTY TENT and then the party continues as usual. First of all, a lot of people come from all over the world to jump and party. Do you really expect them to stop and mourn a person they don't know. If you are a friend of the person who died you may decide to stay home...that is your decision to make. Would you really expect the thousands of people at the convention to stop what they are doing?

In the case of Atlanta, this was a planned boogie and party. A lot of people came from all over for this boogie. This had been planned for quite some time. Do you really expect them to ruin their plans and vacations because someone they don't know went in.

This is skydiving....you can die...you will know people who die. The longer you are in the sport, the more people you will know that die. It is part of the sport. Accept it or take up bowling. If a skydiver goes in, drink a toast to them and move on. They knew what they were getting themselves into when they jumped out of an airplane. You sign the waiver, you take your chances.

Last week, in a completely wuffo setting, by chance I met the sister of a very well known skydiver who went in. Her son just got his A license and that was all she could talk about. Her brother was, at the time of his death, one of the most experienced skydivers in the world and all she said was "My brother died doing the thing he loved most in the world"

Time flies like an arrow....fruit flies like a banana

[JohnRich 4]

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the rescue team... All they wanted was the videos from the jump so that they could try and get a better perspective on where to look FROM THE HELICOPTER!!!!!

Did anyone give them input on the jump run and exit point that were used so that they could precisely determine the most likely place to start looking?