Give them an Inch (Damn palestinians)

[immanence 0]

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Send the Palestinians to Louisiana... regardless of where they go, they will NEVER own or occupy the land God gave to Israel

Did God give them the title deeds, or He just said, "Here, take the keys"? I mean, did He legally dispense this gift, or it's just on loan? Do you have photocopies of the relevant documents? I'd like to see God's signature.


Your nick is chuteless? Should be clueless woefully ill-informed .... or certainly heartless lacking in human empathy.

[toned down in hindsight to comply with board rules regarding phrases or words that could be interpreted as personal attacks, though the beligerance of your posts in this thread offend me personally]

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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THE ARTICLE WAS ABOUT THE PALESTINIANS BREAKING INTO EGYPT. [B]HOW IS THAT DEFENDING THEIR HOMELAND?

The ignorance displayed in your question is quite something to see.

1) Gaza is part of historic Palestine and thus is part of their homeland. Are you ignorant of the fact that Rafah, the border city, was partitioned in 1967? For the most part, it is not Egyptians on the other side of the Philadelphi corridor, but Palestinians.

2) Gaza is a prison. For 38 years Gazans have been locked inside, only crossing into Sinai under very restricted conditions. Many Palestinians have family there, and yes, many were trying to break that wall between Gazans and the outside world. They could hardly break it in the north, at Erez. All other directions lead to Israel and a bullet to the head.

3) Palestinians have no real ally in Egypt. Look at the divisive role Egypt has played in the Arab League and you will understand that challenging Egypt is a way of fighting for their rights.

4) Have you any idea of the level of destruction and impoverishment in Gaza? Can you imagine living not 38 days, not even 38 months, but 38 years under military occupation?

Wake up. Read more. You have an American passport? Get a letter from a local newspaper and go to the GPO in Jerusalem and get a press pass and go there and see for yourself.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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BTW, I am special to Jesus Christ

He told you that? So He's a personal friend? That's great, because I always had a few questions I'd like to have answered about Him. What does He do with His leisure time? Does He play any musical instruments? Do you guys hang out often? He must speak a lot of languages. What is His cellphone number? Does He have a mortage? Or are you just some kind of clairvoyant that communes with the dead?

[substituted the word "clairvoyant" for "psychotic" to comply with board rules regarding phrases or words that could be interpreted as personal attacks, though the tenor of your posts in this thread offend me personally]

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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Some areas in "Palestine" were predominately Jewish

Can you name one?

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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Just curious, but since some people here think the Palestinians are just reclaiming their rightful land ... do you support kicking all non-native-americans out of the US and Canada?

In other words, should the acquisition of land by force be permitted? No. Should a sense of justice prevail in world politics? It would be better, wouldn't it?

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[Trent 0]

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In other words, should the acquisition of land by force be permitted? No. Should a sense of justice prevail in world politics? It would be better, wouldn't it?

So was that a yes or a no?
Do we kick all the non-original natives out of North and South America? Let's get them all out of Africa too while we're at it.

On another note, all your self editing is pointless since you leave in the offensive parts and just cross it out or substitute it back in in a footnote. Your attitude is more offensive than any of Bill's posts. If you don't like his beleifs, get over it. You don't own the only opinion in the world.

Oh, hello again!

[falxori 0]

your post is so full of crap it's almost too easy...

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prior to the formation of the State of Israel the country was called... Wait for it... PALESTINE!!!

what country? the area was called "palestine" since somewhere around Roman times. the land itself had both jews and muslims (and several others)

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largely just lived peacefully together in what was a British Protectorate heading toward independence.

peacefully? check again. start with the riots of 36-39. this violent conflict goes way before the creation of israel.

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so the obvious solution was to partition the country

yes it was. and one side accepted it while the other (with at least 5 neighbouring countries) declared war.
guess who?

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& give the nice bits of it to a bunch of outsiders!

the nice bits? let me tell you a simple fact. before the jews settled mainly on the shore line, the area was nothing than swamps. they mainly settled there because that was mostly empty land.

outsiders? well that depends on how back you want to go since these "outsiders" were driven out of the same land.
that will lead us to the "who was here first" arguement which i could easily win but it will not lead to any solution.

as for the original post about the free passage between Gaza and egypt, i have no problem with family reunions and free passage but...
1) in the past few days where there was no control, a huge amount of arms, rockets and explosives got into Gaza. guess where we'll see it next?
2) the more problematic thing is that terrorists cross into egypt, and then they can easily penetrate Israel through the relatively open (and long) border between egypt and israel.
that is why Israel has signed an agreement with the egyptians regarding the border between egypt and Gaza.
sadly, this agreement doesnt seem to be worth the paper its written on...

O

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"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[diverborg 0]

HOME...........VISITOR

Jews 03..........Palestinians 01

Good post man!!

[falxori 0]

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HOME VISITOR

Jews 03 Palestinians 01

i'd rather it was 2:2 and we'd be one step closer to peace.
lets hope the Gaza experiment will prove there is a partner on the other side...
O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[diverborg 0]

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i'd rather it was 2:2 and we'd be one step closer to peace.
lets hope the Gaza experiment will prove there is a partner on the other side...

Maybe my post was a little inappropriate but I found it funny at the time. I do find it very bizarre that there are some people here that think Israel belongs to the Palestinians. Where do they get this from? I guess everybody has a different account of history. Can't we all just share.

[immanence 0]

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So was that a yes or a no? Do we kick all the non-original natives out of North and South America? Let's get them all out of Africa too while we're at it

Your feeble question is set up as a foil. What would anyone sensible say? Do I believe that white Europeans who became Americans have an historical debt of restitution to pay to the memory of the millions of Aztecs, Mayans and "native Americans" they murdered? Yes. Do I have to defeat that moral point by falling into your specious trap, arguing "well, then, all the 'new Americans' should leave"? No. Unlike you I don't think in black and whites — at least I fight against doing so. "Yes" or "no" is a first grade response to complex historical questions. You may wish to hide behind easy answers, but thankfully you don't have the last word. Saying "No" would not free you of the dubious history of the forefathers of America.

I'm not sure who you're referring to in Africa.

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On another note, all your self editing is pointless since you leave in the offensive parts and just cross it out or substitute it back in in a footnote. Your attitude is more offensive than any of Bill's posts. If you don't like his beleifs, get over it. You don't own the only opinion in the world

Responding to the last point first, please point out to me where in my words I claimed to own the only opinion in the world. It is precisely because Bill used words, capitalised, like "NEVER" that I bothered to intervene. My self-editing is for the sake of transparency. I left it there as an admission. I'm not free of the kind of intolerance Bill clearly has either. But there is a difference between us: Bill's words betray his intolerance of any worldly claim towards justice. For him, the Palestinians are intruders (he used the word "occupy") on lands that were entrusted to Jews by God. My intolerance is of this kind of Biblical bigotry. In my response I vented some anger by using certain words: clueless, heartless, psychotic. On reflection I realised that such words were not helpful, if — in my view — true nonetheless, relative to what I read. But I didn't remove them entirely because I wanted a broader point to be noted by others: that there is a fascistic intolerance in his words which I find deeply offensive. I struggled against myself and edited my posts because I don't want to become what Bill in this thread is.

So nice try, Trent, but your response is completely vapid.

As for your "If you don't like his beliefs, get over it", am I to take it that anything can be said with any consequence and that others have no right to respond? I could say the same in reply: I found Bill's posts to be offensive and you should get over the fact that I am here to respond.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[Frenchy68 0]

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HOME VISITOR

Jews 03 Palestinians 01

i'd rather it was 2:2 and we'd be one step closer to peace.
lets hope the Gaza experiment will prove there is a partner on the other side...
O

Indeed.

"For once you have tasted Absinthe you will walk the earth with your eyes turned towards the gutter, for there you have been and there you will long to return."

[immanence 0]

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your post is so full of crap it's almost too easy...

Unkind words, but they apply to you too. I don't want to get into a spat here. I see from your profile that you are in Israel. You can see from mine that I am in Cairo. But I cannot let slide some of your baseless assertions:

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what country? the area was called "palestine" since somewhere around Roman times. the land itself had both jews and muslims (and several others)

Do you want to quote numbers? You probably know them as well as I do. Jews were by far the minority until, in the late 19th century, emigration, under the auspices of the growing nationalist ideology of Zionism, was encouraged by anti-Semitic governments in Europe.

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peacefully? check again. start with the riots of 36-39. this violent conflict goes way before the creation of israel

You're right. It comes out of the emergence of Zionism in the 19th century which specifically was aimed at dispossessing the existing inhabitants (non-Jewish, at any rate) of historical Palestine.

You probably will balk at my use of this phrase, "historical Palestine". There was no state, you may respond. You're right. But there was ownership of land and hundreds of thousands of non-Jews living there, as they had for centuries, before, through force, the State of Israel was unilaterally declared.

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so the obvious solution was to partition the country

yes it was. and one side accepted it while the other (with at least 5 neighbouring countries) declared war. guess who?

If your neighbour stole your house or your land and pushed your family off your lands, don't you imagine that your friends would say "No, we stand with you: this cannot be permitted"?

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the nice bits? let me tell you a simple fact. before the jews settled mainly on the shore line, the area was nothing than swamps. they mainly settled there because that was mostly empty land

This is a much-pandered and entirely baseless lie. Falxori, can you explain the hundreds of destroyed Palestinian villages? I have visited scores and seen them with my own eyes. Please don't erase history with such disregard. Some here are reading and know that what you say is slanted and misinformed.

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that will lead us to the "who was here first" arguement which i could easily win but it will not lead to any solution

I'm not taunting you, but I, for one, would very much like to read your attempt.

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in the past few days where there was no control, a huge amount of arms, rockets and explosives got into Gaza

This is an utter falsehood. Everyone who lives in this region knows that no rockets could ever get across the Philadelphi corridor. I would not claim that light weapons (most likely useless from the ones I have seen arming the Egyptian military) have not been smuggled through before. This is almost certainly true. There have been smuggling tunnels: I do not contest this. But rockets? Please. The plain and simple truth — and you will know this as an Israeli, if you are being honest — is that the Intifada has been armed, largely, through corrupt Israelis. The Intifada would simply run out of bullets if all kinds of bribes and deals weren't constantly going on through intermediaries both in Gaza and the West Bank.

Finally, let us not lose sight of the plain and simple and unrefutable inequality of arms between the Palestinians and the State of Israel. The IDF is one of the best-equipped armies in the world. The IAF is one of the best-equipped airforces in the world. Though it may not be seen often on TV, I have witnessed, first hand and live, the destructive power used by the State of Israel against a largely defenceless people. It has been, over the past 5 years, systematic, indescriminate and shameful. As a result, Israel became a society wracked with psychological distortions, horribly manipulated by those in command.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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I do find it very bizarre that there are some people here that think Israel belongs to the Palestinians. Where do they get this from? I guess everybody has a different account of history

Most people in the Middle East can't comprehend how others outside can possibly say what you just said

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[diverborg 0]

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Most people in the Middle East can't comprehend how others outside can possibly say what you just said

What was so incomprehendible about what I said? You obviously think the state of Israel belongs to the palestinians. If so, then the Jews have no place there. I only made the point that the palestinians don't own Israel. I never said that they don't have the right to live there. How is what you said more comprehendable than what I said? Notice I added to my previous comment "Can't we all just share"

Sorry I'm gonna have to go with Falxori on this one, as far as the history of Israel goes.

[Trent 0]

Wow, sorry to trouble your immense understanding of the world with a simple question. Surely someone of your enormous intellect can see the hypocrisy of your position that the Palestinians were there first so the land is theirs, but it's okay that the hundreds of other natives in the Americas, South Africa, and pacific islands don't deserve their land back. Really, how is it different? Or doesn't it matter if it happened 150 years ago?

It is nice to see we have yet another poster who knows everything. Congratulations, you're the 1,236,342,123rd one here in SC.

Oh, and from your responses to Bill... it looks like you lack the very tolerance that you chastise him for NOT having. Surprise.

I'll try to avoid any further vapid responses since you still have to go through the rest of the thread and respond to every single post, applying your wisdom.

Oh, hello again!

[falxori 0]

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Unkind words,

unkind, maybe. but still true.

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Jews were by far the minority until, in the late 19th century, emigration, under the auspices of the growing nationalist ideology of Zionism, was encouraged by anti-Semitic governments in Europe.

true. after 2000 years in exile, under constant oppression, there was in fact a national movement which called for the rerurn to land from which they were driven out. based on your logic, thats a good thing.

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It comes out of the emergence of Zionism in the 19th century which specifically was aimed at dispossessing the existing inhabitants (non-Jewish, at any rate) of historical Palestine.

yes and no. as i said before, in this perios almost all of the jews lived in new settlements on the shore line which before them was only swamps or in mixed cities like Haifa and Akka (and even Hebron where my family lived for centuries until they were forced out in 1936.)
and yes, in 1948 (after the local arabs refused the partition plan and invaded) they lost more land. and israel was by far weaker than its neighbours bcak then.

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through force, the State of Israel was unilaterally declared.

again you're ignoring the fact that Israel was not the one to refuse the peaceful partition plan.
and i don't call a U.N backed decision unilateral.

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If your neighbour stole your house or your land and pushed your family off your lands, don't you imagine that your friends would say "No, we stand with you: this cannot be permitted"?

permitted? sure. but don't go whining if u start a war and lose.
and what makes it "their land" more than its mine?
but we'll get to whos land is it in a moment...

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This is a much-pandered and entirely baseless lie

no its not. the majority of israelis live on the shore line where there was no massive arab presence. was it completely empty? no. and those who chose to stay and not run away at 1948 became israeli citizens, equal by law.
i doubt any of the jewish population would have been treated any better had the 1948 war been lost...

and since we're on the subject of stolen property, how about all arab countries return all of the property of the arab jews they've taken when the arab jews where kicked out of their lands (in which they've lived for centuries.)
hunderds of thousands arab jews were thrown out and they were not allowed to take anything with them.

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would very much like to read your attempt

simple.
if u consider today's definition of palestinians. there wasn't such entity until 67, or 48 if u insist.
if you want to expand it and say muslims who lived in these lands, i'll take u back 2000 years before there was even Islam while there was a well documented Jewish kingdom here (until Babylonians and then Romans exiled most of them).
then you might say its not about being arab or muslim and these people still have roots in this region. good. the best you can do is go back to the book of genesis when it is believed we all had a single father and even then our claim to this land is equal.

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Everyone who lives in this region knows that no rockets could ever get across the Philadelphi corridor

oh really?
based on what?

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The Intifada would simply run out of bullets if all kinds of bribes and deals weren't constantly going on through intermediaries both in Gaza and the West Bank.

no, it would have ran out of bullets (at least you admit its not rocks anymore...) when the funds going to the PA will be used to help its citizens instead of funding terrorism.

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the plain and simple and unrefutable inequality of arms between the Palestinians and the State of Israel.

do you really doubt Israel's capability to wipe out the whole Gaza strip or any other palestinian city?
sure it can, but it doesn't because our war is not with all palestinians, its with those who seek to destroy us. sadly they are operating from within the civil population.
and before you pull the "citizens get hurt" card. let me remind you that one of the basic rules of war states that all comatant forces must be clearly marked and distinguished from citizens.

again i'll say that i hope the PA will do its part and prove it can take care of its own business.

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[immanence 0]

First, huge amounts of land were stolen by the Jewish Agency when the State of Israel was created. There are deeds that go back before the British Mandate. It is a fact that prior to the 20th century Palestinians (i.e., Arabs living in historic Palestine) did own what would become Israel. I believe that what was taken by force should be returned, and that people who were forced out of their homes and off their lands in 1948 should be able to return. The State of Israel itself recognised this — or said it would — (embodied in UN General Assembly Resolution 194 on 11 December 1948) when it entered the UN.

Why do you asign to me the argument that if the Palestinians "own" Israel (which wouldn't be my phrase; I'd say that the Palestinians are the incumbant inhabitants of Palestine), Jews would have no place there? I have never said any such thing. On the contrary, the basis of opposing the State of Israel at this juncture is to underline the fight for equal and human rights. It is the State of Israel that says Palestinians have no place within it. Look at the absentee law, or the law of entry to Israel. Do not asign to me Israel's racist ideology.

So I would say this: Palestinians own "Israel" (as now called) but Jews have a perfectly defendable right to live there as long as they accept the principle of equal rights under secular law. That is not to say that Jews who inhabit lands that were stolen or seized in 1948 have a right to remain there. No. They should be resettled and the Palestinians in the disapora who are living in awful conditions in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, parts of Egypt, or in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza, should be allowed to return.

What made me sad about what you wrote — or what is incomprehensible to most people in the Middle East about what you said — is that you have it totally backwards. What I heard in your words was, "How can people think Palestinians own Israel?", where most people here say "How can people think that Jews own Palestine?"

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[immanence 0]

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Surely someone of your enormous intellect can see the hypocrisy of your position that the Palestinians were there first so the land is theirs

I'll remind you that most of the native Americans didn't survive long enough to claim redress against the genocide that annihilated them and disposessed them of ancestral lands. The Palestinian case is different in detailed ways, but yes — if forced to take a line — reparations should be made for that half-millennium of slaughter and colonial domination that redrew the shape of the Americas.

If your position is that it would be impractical to face up to that history you're basically condoning it happening again in the future. This, above all, is what I am against. And quite aside from anything, unlike the period of the colonial and imperial free-for-all, we have in the edifice of international law, customary and legal norms for preventing genocide and the acquisition of land by force. Some of these provisions were established before the State of Israel, yet conveniently ignored in this case. What explains this? In my view, the anti-Semitism that arose in the West with unprecedented violence in the 19th and 20th centuries. The founding of the State of Israel was an extension of the same logic of the "final solution" that led to death camps in Poland and elsewhere. It is anti-Semitism in the West that drove the Jews out, and it was a similar racism against Arabs that pushed them all into what is now the State of Israel. I want to confront this history not only because the collateral victims of it were the Palestinians, but because the Jews as a people have been manipulated throughout history and that experience has not abated.

Do Palestinians have the right of return to lands stolen by the State of Israel? Yes. Do Jews in Israel have the right of return to cities and homes they owned in Europe during World War II? Yes.

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I'll try to avoid any further vapid responses since you still have to go through the rest of the thread and respond to every single post, applying your wisdom

This did make me laugh a lot. I suppose if I was defending the Jews against the Nazis in 1939 I could be insulted in the same way.

Apart from the point that I just answered, was their any point to your post? Or was it just aimed at ridiculing my effort to bring some balance to this discussion?

By the way, I've never laid claim to the "immense understanding" or "enormous intellect" you so derisively asign to me. Let any arguments I make stand for themselves.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

[diverborg 0]

Help! Falxori, Trent, now what do I say.

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Why do you asign to me the argument that if the Palestinians "own" Israel (which wouldn't be my phrase; I'd say that the Palestinians are the incumbant inhabitants of Palestine), Jews would have no place there? I have never said any such thing.

I will refer you to this latter quote of yours

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So I would say this: Palestinians own "Israel" (as now called) but Jews have a perfectly defendable right to live there as long as they accept the principle of equal rights under secular law.

Oh these palestinians are oooh so innocent. I'm sure none of them would ever have a problem with the Jews settling in with them. I'm sure all of these palestinians accept the principle of equal rights too.
Damn!

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"How can people think Palestinians own Israel?", where most people here say "How can people think that Jews own Palestine?"

Considering that the majority of the middle east is Islam, this does not surpise me. Ya know, Muslims don't like Jews. I found that out after reading some of the Koran. However I'm neither Muslim nor Jew and I'm viewing this as a third person who is not really affected either way. Neither side is perfect, but Israel has played the bigger man and backed out of Gaza. It seems to me that Israel is trying hard for peace right now. If they weren't they could wipe out the palestinians in a couple days with their military. I'm not buying into your "the Jews are the bigots, and the Palestinians are the victims".

[falxori 0]

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the Palestinians in the disapora who are living in awful conditions in Lebanon, Jordan, Syria, parts of Egypt, or in refugee camps in the West Bank and Gaza, should be allowed to return.

there was almost an identicle jewish "disapora" who was kicked out by arab countries like Iran/Iraq/Morocco/Egypt etc.
the only difference between the two is that Israel took care of its refugees while the arabs chose to let them rot in refugee camps (not that the palestinians had it any better under Jordanian and egyptian rule before 67)


i think both palestinians and israelis have some base to clain ownership on all of this land (yes, including the west bank which was part of the historic land of israel) but like it or not. we're both here and we'll have to share. and it almost happened in camp david but someone chose to back off and start yet another violent round...

O

"Carpe diem, quam minimum credula postero."

[miked10270 0]

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your post is so full of crap it's almost too easy...

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prior to the formation of the State of Israel the country was called... Wait for it... PALESTINE!!!

what country? the area was called "palestine" since somewhere around Roman times. the land itself had both jews and muslims (and several others)

See attached? Or is it of absolute importance if you call it a country, or a region, or a protectorate?

My point was that this situation is NOT the fault of the Palestinians, it is the fault of PARTITION & Forced Migration!

Mike.

PS. On looking back my post appears to be full of words, not crap!

Taking the piss out of the FrenchAmericans since before it was fashionable.

Prenait la pisse hors du FrançaisCanadiens méridionaux puisqu'avant lui à la mode.

[immanence 0]

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after 2000 years in exile, under constant oppression, there was in fact a national movement which called for the rerurn to land from which they were driven out. based on your logic, thats a good thing

Not if that "return" is established at the price of the genocide (a carefully chosen word: look at the Genocide Convention of 1948 if you wish to contest this) of another people.

You speak as though the Jews were original people growing up out of the stones. That isn't the case. It is the failure of Zionist Jews to understand this that has led to the conflict, added to the religious right that believe words written down from political struggles 2000 years ago (and which were themselves plays within those broader political struggles) are almighty truths: that the Jews, and only the Jews, are the rightful inhabitants of "Eretz Israel".

Such truth claims are incendiary and unprovable. Someone comes to your property and says that in the Bible it is stated that God gave this land to them, and that you are occupying that land. Better yet, they come without discussion, in batallions or death gangs (like the Argon, Balmakh, Haganah, Stern or Kach). What would you do? What would anyone do?

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as i said before, in this perios almost all of the jews lived in new settlements on the shore line which before them was only swamps or in mixed cities like Haifa and Akka (and even Hebron where my family lived for centuries until they were forced out in 1936

I'm sad that your family were forced out of Al-Khalil, to use the name given to it by the historical and constant Arab majority. That experience is as unjust to me as the massacres of Dier Yassin (1948: 250 villagers killed), Nasir Al-Dien (1948: 50 killed), Abu–Shosha (1948: 50 killed), Al-Tantora (1948: 71 villagers killed) and Al-Dawaimah (1948: 200 villagers killed). But who holds the balance of violence? Why were so many villages (531 in total) destroyed only to lie abandoned, fenced off? If this was a "land without a people for a people without a land", why was it necessary to make 726,000 Palestinians flee 1948 Palestine entirely, a further 32,000 internally displaced, never allowed to return?

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and yes, in 1948 (after the local arabs refused the partition plan and invaded) they lost more land

As simple as that, huh? And why would they refuse partition? Do you have an answer? I'll take a shot. Because the partition plan (UNGA Resolution 181) was fundamentally unfair and unjust. It was suggested, perhaps you are aware, first in 1937 by the Peel Commission. The plan granted Jews 56.47% of Mandatory Palestine at a time when they owned less than 7% of the land. Does that seem fair to you?

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I don't call a UN backed decision unilateral

The declaration of the state had nothing to do with the UN, as you know. It sure didn't declare itself on 56.47% of the land of 1948 Palestine, as was the UN's express wishes.

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but don't go whining if u start a war and lose

This is what it always comes down to. "You started the war, and we beat you." 1) Zionism in the 19th century — or better yet, anti-Semitism that was pushing the Jews out of Europe in the 19th century — started the war, not the Arabs; 2) Under the Briand-Kellogg Pact of 1928, the acquisition of territory by force is forbidden by international law. The State of Israel is founded on illegal acquisition.

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and what makes it "their land" more than its mine?

They have deeds? They have keys to the front doors of their family homes?

Have you ever visited a home — there are many — that was originally owned by a Palestinian family and was taken over by a Jewish one after the Palestinians were forced out? I have.

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those who chose to stay and not run away at 1948 became israeli citizens, equal by law

You're splitting my sides! Seemingly I know more about your country than you do. The idea that "Arab-Israelis" have equal rights with Jewish Israelis is so patently — and widely known to be — false I'm staggered that you even ventured to suggest such a thing. The detail is far, far too numerous to go into here. Suffice to say that in nearly every single respect, Arab-Israelis are second-class citizens in the State of Israel. You can get a lot of reliable information on this here.

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i doubt any of the jewish population would have been treated any better had the 1948 war been lost

That's speculation. Let's stick with the facts. On the whole, covering the whole of the 20th century, Jews have killed a lot more Arabs than Arabs have killed Jews.

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and since we're on the subject of stolen property, how about all arab countries return all of the property of the arab jews they've taken when the arab jews where kicked out of their lands (in which they've lived for centuries.) hunderds of thousands arab jews were thrown out and they were not allowed to take anything with them

Are you talking before or after 1948? If before, can you provide us some reference details? My information is that with the exception of the 1941 riots in Baghdad, Jews in Arab countries were not systematically persecuted. After 1948, there were attacks, in Egypt, Morocco and Tunisia and Iraq, but one must put this in the context of the massacres Jewish groups and the centralised army were conducting in Israel against the Palestinians.

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if u consider today's definition of palestinians. there wasn't such entity until 67, or 48 if u insist

Certainly I insist. But this argument is rather shaky. You're saying, on the one hand, that Jews have always been in Palestine while Palestinians are a 20th century creation. Okay, let's just say Arabs.

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if you want to expand it and say muslims who lived in these lands, i'll take u back 2000 years before there was even Islam while there was a well documented Jewish kingdom here (until Babylonians and then Romans exiled most of them)

As I said, you speak as if Jews arose from the stones — like they were the first people on the land. This isn't true. But they are the first people to claim God himself bequeathed the land especially to them.

If you look at the run of history, peoples have been kicking other peoples out of Palestine for thousands of years. The point is to end that cycle, not perpetuate it. The founding of the State of Israel was based on yet another turn of that violent cycle, this time backed-up with heavy modern military arms.

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the best you can do is go back to the book of genesis when it is believed we all had a single father and even then our claim to this land is equal

How's about taking our heads out of the clouds of theology and deal with secular equal and human rights?

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Everyone who lives in this region knows that no rockets could ever get across the Philadelphi corridor

oh really? based on what?

1) The fact that not a single modern rocket (as opposed to handmade Qassam rockets) has ever been fired from Gaza since 1967. 2) The fact that Egypt, hands tied behind its back to the tune of $2bn a year funded by the US, would never allow such a thing. The Egyptian security forces are incompetant sometimes. Not that incompentant. So your claim that massive amounts of arms have passed over into Gaza in the last week is simply hot air.

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The Intifada would simply run out of bullets if all kinds of bribes and deals weren't constantly going on through intermediaries both in Gaza and the West Bank.

no, it would have ran out of bullets (at least you admit its not rocks anymore...) when the funds going to the PA will be used to help its citizens instead of funding terrorism

I suppose the PA has a bullet-making factory? Please. You know full well that there is a total embargo on the PA (or any Palestinian group) from buying arms, even if they had the money.

And yes, the Al-Aqsa Intifada was armed, unlike the first, which was of stones. That is not to say it was widely armed. Kids were still shot dead throwing rocks, and you and I both know this to be the case.

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do you really doubt Israel's capability to wipe out the whole Gaza strip or any other palestinian city?

Not having seen it, no. But the moral backbone of the IDF? Yes, I doubt that. It's absent. This is a child's army and the effects of the 2000-05 Intifada, and the operations mounted by the IDF against defenceless civilians, will come back to haunt Isreali society ...... mark my words.

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our war is not with all palestinians, its with those who seek to destroy us. sadly they are operating from within the civil population

If we ever meet on a DZ we can share stories: you of your military service, me of my times watching Apache's firing missiles into refugee camps.

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and before you pull the "citizens get hurt" card. let me remind you that one of the basic rules of war states that all comatant forces must be clearly marked and distinguished from citizens

True. I wish the IDF understood better this very same point. Even by Israel's logic — given that it has repeatedly denied the existence of the occupation — the function of the IDF should be left to the Shin Bet and the general police. Is it fair to match a smaller country against a bigger one, even if Palestinians declared a state and integrated the armed resistence into a uniformed military? Or would this just give the turkey shoot a veneer of legality?

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again i'll say that i hope the PA will do its part and prove it can take care of its own business.

I hope that my friend Jonathan Cook, in this piece on the future of Gaza, is wrong.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

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I'm not buying into your "the Jews are the bigots, and the Palestinians are the victims"

There's only one reason, but do correct me if I'm wrong: you have never been there.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'

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like it or not. we're both here and we'll have to share. and it almost happened in camp david but someone chose to back off and start yet another violent round...

The failure of Camp David II has to be set carefully within the complete framework of the conflict. We're never going to be able to establish that here. I'm already weary of this discussion. You and I both know that the right of return was not on the table. This was a red line for Arafat. And what was the concession tabled by Israel? The end of the occupation? You see? Camp David II didn't address the fundamental issues of justice. It was doomed. This was Clinton's failure, not Arafat's. Barak offered next to nothing. But of course the world condemned Arafat.

By the way, another issue which I can't get into is the next layer to the whole puzzle: that Arafat was not an agent of national liberation, as the West begrudgingly regards him. Rather he, and the PA, have been a surrogate arm of the Israeli state, progressively leading the Palestinians through one defeat after another. An interview I conducted with one of Palestine's most noted intellectuals, Abdel Sattar Kassem, outlines part of this argument and may make interesting reading to anyone who wants to delve deeper than we can here.

"where danger is appears also that which saves ..." Friedrich Holderlin, 'Patmos'