Why didn't they leave?

[kallend 1,672]

We are being told it is unrealistic to expect a few tens of thousands of troops to arrive in the disaster area in much less than a week. These are healthy, fit, trained personnel with sophisticated equipment at their disposal and an intact and efficient chain of command.

So how can anyone expect 500,000 untrained people, many of whom are poor, sick and/or with no significant resources for communication or transportation at their disposal to evacuate a city in 24 hours in rapidly deteriorating conditions?

I'm sure there are many idiots in a population of 500,000, and criminals too. However, that does not excuse the blanket criticism of those stranded in NOLA for no fault of their own.

Until anyone can prove that the majority of the stranded were stranded on account of their own stupidity, this criticism of the victims is misplaced.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

We are being told it is unrealistic to expect a few tens of thousands of troops to arrive in the disaster area in much less than a week. These are healthy, fit, trained personnel with sophisticated equipment at their disposal and an intact and efficient chain of command.

So how can anyone expect 500,000 untrained people, many of whom are poor, sick and/or with no significant resources for communication or transportation at their disposal to evacuate a city in 24 hours in rapidly deteriorating conditions?

I'm sure there are many idiots in a population of 500,000, and criminals too. However, that does not excuse the blanket criticism of those stranded in NOLA for no fault of their own.

Until anyone can prove that the majority of the stranded were stranded on account of their own stupidity, this criticism of the victims is misplaced.

LOL. You still miss my point. Everyone else seems to get it.

One more time:

"My point is if you decide to stay, even in the face of a mandatory evacuation order, when you have the means to leave, don't complain if rescue/relief efforts aren't perfect. You knowingly took the chance, live with the results."

Quote

Until anyone can prove that the majority of the stranded were stranded on account of their own stupidity, this criticism of the victims is misplaced.

This is the best part, where I have I applied "blanket criticism" of the victims. I have been very specific. As specific as the victims that could have left, chose not, and are complaining about rescue efforts.

Where did I say I expected 500,000 people to evacuate? I have been very specific, you keep trying to say I said thing I didn't say. It's all there for you to go back and read. What is this, twice now in this thread alone you have tried to put words in my mouth?

Keep trying to spin what I am saying

Derek

[kallend 1,672]

Until you have proof that a significant fraction of those stranded are there on account of stupidity, laziness or criminal intent, I think your statement is way out of line.

Why are you so intent on the trees to the exclusion of the forest?

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

Until you have proof that a significant fraction of those stranded are there on account of stupidity, laziness or criminal intent, I think your statement is way out of line.

Until you have proof that a significant fraction of those stranded are "dirt", I think your statement is way out of line.

Quote

Why are you so intent on the trees to the exclusion of the forest?

Why do you try and say I said things I didn't and deny what you actually did say when caught?

Derek

[kallend 1,672]

Quote

Quote

Until you have proof that a significant fraction of those stranded are there on account of stupidity, laziness or criminal intent, I think your statement is way out of line.

Until you have proof that a significant fraction of those stranded are "dirt", I think your statement is way out of line.

Quote

Why are you so intent on the trees to the exclusion of the forest?

Why do you try and say I said things I didn't and deny what you actually did say when caught?

Derek

I think people who rape refugees and shoot at rescue workers are scumbags. There is plenty of evidence that their presence has made rescue efforts far more difficult, and the delay and problems they have caused are out of all proportion to their fraction in the population.

OTOH the additional burden caused by those who didn't leave when they could is not quantified at all and you have NO IDEA how much additional trouble they have caused (probably not much, given that FEMA estimated last year that 100,000 would be unable to leave in an event like this).

You miss the wood for the trees.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

I think people who rape refugees and shoot at rescue workers are scumbags. There is plenty of evidence that their presence has made rescue efforts far more difficult, and the delay and problems they have caused are out of all proportion to their fraction in the population.

OTOH the additional burden caused by those who didn't leave when they could is not quantified at all and you have NO IDEA how much additional trouble they have caused (probably not much, given that FEMA estimated last year that 100,000 would be unable to leave in an event like this).

You miss the wood for the trees.

And I think that the people that could have left and didn't that are complaining about relief efforts have no right to. You didn't call everyone stranded there 'dirt' and I didn't criticize everyone stranded there. No matter how many times I say the same thing, you think I said something else. Talk about forest through the trees.

Derek

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

given that FEMA estimated last year that 100,000 would be unable to leave in an event like this

As stated before, yes, thousands of people were unable to leave.. This is *NOT* FEMA's fault. FEMA warned that with current plans 100,000 people would not get out, the *** CITY AND STATE *** should have done something about this. They had a plan to use buses to get people out, they didnt. Not only did their plan *SUCK* but they chose not to follow it. If the city and state would have done their friggin job we would not be in such a big mess to begin with.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[rwieder 0]

kallend:

I hear you making a lot of noise, most of it at Hook-N-Swoop's expense. What training, if any do you have in handling natural disasters? You seem to really have a bad taste in your mouth for the situation in NO. What HAVE YOU personally done to help alleviate the human pain and suffering there? Is it worth going over there and getting shot at to help and rebuild this city?

I've been traveling through NO over the years now when i was catching choppers to go offshore. It has been common knowledge that this very disaster could, may and would happen one day. Everybody that lives there, and has traveled through there knew the risks, it's that simple. All the whining and crying isn't going to help anything. Litigation (which seems to be your forte) isn't going to help anything. The people who are there, are there because they chose to stay. Some stayed to capitolize off of the pillaging and plundering that would most certainly follow. And the people who were in charge of physically impaired individuals who left to save their own ass should be held accountable. The people shooting at relief workers trying to help them, well, i think their mentality is quite clear. If you, or anybody else doesn't approve waht's going on in NO, juice your vehichle up and take the drive, but stop laying blame.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[gravitational 0]

Quote

>They did choose to experience a hurricane.

If you are saying "the people who stuck around just because they wanted to see a hurricane, even though they knew how bad it could be, shouldn't complain when they are rescued" then I agree. But as mentioned above that's not the only reason people stayed.

I was down in NO a couple weeks ago. The projects are just a bit East of the French Quarter (actually, the FC ends, the projects begin) the superdome is a hike (Mapquest says just under 3.0 miles) from the projects but it is doable, even for a little out of shape people (the walk might do them good anyway). Those who chose not to make that walk I have no sympathy for. They chose to experience the wrath of mother nature and by all accounts, someone had pissed in her wheaties. By all accounts, staying in their gov't funded home they choose to ride out the storm instead of seeking 'higher ground'. (higher ground refers to getting out or a better designed structure other than their residence)

------
Michael

[nate_1979 9]

Quote

Quote

>They did choose to experience a hurricane.

If you are saying "the people who stuck around just because they wanted to see a hurricane, even though they knew how bad it could be, shouldn't complain when they are rescued" then I agree. But as mentioned above that's not the only reason people stayed.

I was down in NO a couple weeks ago. The projects are just a bit East of the French Quarter (actually, the FC ends, the projects begin) the superdome is a hike (Mapquest says just under 3.0 miles) from the projects but it is doable, even for a little out of shape people (the walk might do them good anyway). Those who chose not to make that walk I have no sympathy for. They chose to experience the wrath of mother nature and by all accounts, someone had pissed in her wheaties. By all accounts, staying in their gov't funded home they choose to ride out the storm instead of seeking 'higher ground'. (higher ground refers to getting out or a better designed structure other than their residence)

At which point the city and state failed by not following their own evacuation plans, firing up some busses, and getting the people the hell out of there.

FGF #???
I miss the sky...
There are 10 types of people in the world... those who understand binary and those who don't.

[rwieder 0]

Quote

At which point the city and state failed by not following their own evacuation plans, firing up some busses, and getting the people the hell out of there.

From day 1 They knew this storm was going to make land fall there, no doubt about it.

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[kallend 1,672]

Quote

Quote

At which point the city and state failed by not following their own evacuation plans, firing up some busses, and getting the people the hell out of there.

From day 1 They knew this storm was going to make land fall there, no doubt about it.

It didn't make landfall there, it made landfall in Mississippi.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[rwieder 0]

Quote

It didn't make landfall there, it made landfall in Mississippi.

I'm glad you told me that John. Fact: The people of NO knew for a fact it was going to make land fall in their city, it wasn't a gaurded military secret. When i'm on a drilling rig, i get weather reports from my dispatcher every 30 minutes, i know where the storms will be for the most part. We sure as hell didn't hang around just to see if our rig could stand the hurricane force winds and rains. Oh, i guess that being on a drilling rig is much different than being in a city?

-Richard-
"You're Holding The Rope And I'm Taking The Fall"

[billvon 2,463]

> When i'm on a drilling rig, i get weather reports from my dispatcher
>every 30 minutes, i know where the storms will be for the most part.

Oil rigs traditionally have better communications systems than slums.

[Rookie120 0]

Quote

Oil rigs traditionally have better communications systems than slums.

You havent seen some of the joints I went into when I used to do cable tv. Some of these slums have better electronic's than a movie theater

If you find yourself in a fair fight, your tactics suck!

[Everon 0]

Actually, you point out a very interesting psychological parallel here. The warnings were there, not nearly enough was done and then WHAM. Interesting.

[flyangel2 2]

Maybe because they didn't think it was going to be that bad and once the storm cleared, they wanted to keep looters away from what little they owned.

May your trails be crooked, winding, lonesome, dangerous, leading to the most amazing view. May your mountains rise into and above the clouds. - Edward Abbey

[Hooknswoop 19]

Quote

: Maybe because they didn't think it was going to be that bad and once the storm cleared, they wanted to keep looters away from what little they owned.

That's fine, just don't complain that the relief effort isn't going as well as you think it should if you chose to stay in the face of a mandatory evacuation order.

Derek

[rhino 0]

Quote

What of the ones that could have and didn't?

You make a good point. Unfortunately 3/4 of the city is at the poverty level and the good ole mayor didn't line up the buses to help them get out. Thats piss poor planning. In a mandatory evacuation transportation should be provided for everyone by the government.

[rhino 0]

Quote

when you have the means to leave

You and I both know you can easily cover 15-30 miles a day on foot. x 3 days = 90 miles inland. Most of them could have walked. Problem is most of them are lazy.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

You and I both know you can easily cover 15-30 miles a day on foot. x 3 days = 90 miles inland. Most of them could have walked. Problem is most of them are lazy.

15-30 miles a day on foot with enough food and water to survive three days is pretty unrealistic. That is 50+ lbs per person. Nevermind the fact that the average person does not own shoes suitable for such an endeavor.

I don't know how often you've walked long distances with a load, but if you can make 90 miles in three days, you are the man.

[rhino 0]

Quote

15-30 miles a day on foot with enough food and water to survive three days is pretty unrealistic.

Not if you prepared for this event. Like ANY half way intelligent person would have. MRE's don't weigh that much. What about a bike?

I've done 30 mile days with 60lbs more times than I can count.

One could literally make that trip with 3 mre's and a couple of gallons of water. The ONLY people that have an excuse not to have left are the ones that physically couldn't. Anyone with 2 feet should have been walking.

[tso-d_chris 0]

Quote

Not if you prepared for this event. Like ANY half way intelligent person would have. MRE's don't weigh that much. What about a bike?

I've done 30 mile days with 60lbs more times than I can count.

One could literally make that trip with 3 mre's and a couple of gallons of water. The ONLY people that have an excuse not to have left are the ones that physically couldn't. Anyone with 2 feet should have been walking.

I have done my share of road marching, as well, which is why I know what you are suggesting would have been next to impossible.

Under ideal situations, high speed soldiers who are in good physical condition and properly equipped fall out of long road marches. Civilians in less than ideal shape are not likely to complete a ninety mile, three day road march.

Never mind the fact that th roads were filled with the cars of the vast majority of NO residents that were evacuating.

[billvon 2,463]

>Not if you prepared for this event. Like ANY half way intelligent person would have.

Exactly. A great many people are not halfway intelligent. I know some of them, and they would have trouble leaving a movie theater during a fire.

[ChasingBlueSky 0]

Quote

Quote

The ones that stayed, couldn't afford to leave.

Some are just to stupid.

Loot at our own board here of people that lived in a possible impact zone of Katrina. How many said they were staying despite the warnings, etc? How many were finally swayed? Know anyone that couldn't decide if they should move on or not?

The same goes for dz.com members that live in MS, GA, FL and TX. Over the 6+ years I have been on this site I have seen too many times "I'll just ride it out, I've done this before." (but then they turn around and tell friends/posters to leave when a storm is headed towards them - gotta love double standards) Everyone has their own reasons. They have the choice to put their life on the line. However, these people are also the ones we see sitting in a tree avoiding flood water after fleeing their house in the middle of a cat 3/4 storm. These people then slow down rescue efforts, make it hard to decide if they are tragedy exploiters, and keeps the right people away from areas that really need attention.

_________________________________________
you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me....
I WILL fly again.....