Dipshits 5 week long vacation

[AlexCrowley 0]

I have to disagree. As someone who watched this unfold and spent many hours following the story in the media (and having far too much interest in how intelligence agencies work) I was aware of a 4 - 6 week lag in media coverage from Europe to the US.

What were front page stories in Europe which debunked Chalabi claims (via Judith Millers exclusives, a large part of the 'available intelligence' used to justify the war to the public) only got traction if the story didnt die and then would be reported on timidly by the mainstream US press. I know I can't ever convince any of you believers out there of that but in this case the pattern occurred every single time. Not once did the US break one of these stories, not once did they get on board the story until several weeks have passed. Unfortunately due to the Plame case trying to find any impartial commentary from that time period has become impossible between the freepers and the moonbat bloggers poluting the fact stream.

However, feel free to search on the background of the Niger papers, their emergence in 2002, their almost instant debunking as forgeries, then the attempted coverup by Italian intelligence - to whom the original forgery has been credited from the available counter intelligence and comments by experts in the Intelligence field.

While Senate and Congress may have made decisions based on available intelligence the CIA were leaking everywhere and giving interviews to european journalists bemoaning the way intelligence analysis was being conducted, that it wasnt overt manipulation that was malicious in nature, but that thru stubborness and inexperience a system had been created that gave credence to information which the CIA considered of low credibility. Bear in mind that all the prewar intelligence was filtered through another group which did not possess the knowledge base or field experience to provide solid analysis.

Thats the reason why both the CIA and George Tenet started getting so much flack - or at least, thats very much how the picture developed to an outside observer: CIA leaks that new agencies methods suck, leak enough info to debunk intelligence or at least severely damage its credibility, and then they got publicly assassinated as payback. I'd cite my sources, but its the end of my day. Look into stovepiping intelligence stories for the 4 months running up to the war, if you can wade thru the blogging crap. The major papers in europe (Times, Independent, whatever the big German news magazine is called, Times of India, Pakistan Times (both English editions) - Times of India has since gone subscription, but they were on top of a lot of these stories. The Telegraph covered a lot, but also tends to do a lot of MI6 press releases (check out their ownership history for details)).

I may have jumped to entirely the wrong conclusions, but based on the many articles I read on the intelligence and the methodology critiques published I think it extremely inaccurate to state that decisions were made on the best available intelligence at the time. If me, a guy who had too much time on his hands and a fast internet connection, was able to source material that refuted official statements *as they were being said*, not after Googling it, not after blogging it, these were major stories in the rest of the world that did not gain traction in the mainstream US media.

You'd think that with the staff these politicians have that perhaps they'd have better quality intelligence (that history has since vindicated as being totally accurate) than some IT geek who likes to read.

There is a side of me that says that an Iraq war was an way for the US to move their army bases from Saudi - which was reportedly on the edge of major civil unrest (according to the Egyptian papers of the time) because of US Infidels (military bases there since Iraq War 1) on their soil, and moving them across the border would provide permenant bases without conflict and therefor help stabalize Saudi and help control oil price fluctuations (which an unstable saudi would cause ........urm, is causing?). Again, feel free to google all that too. Not sure how much blogging coverage it got since everyone took a side and decided to make it about some sort of conspiracy.

I'm willing to accept that my conclusions are inaccurate, but the timeline of events is as accurate as I can recall (which is pretty detailed)

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[TomAiello 25]

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A true leader would not take one day of vacation until every last possible troop was brought home safely. Or perhaps that is just my definition of what a true leader is, i dont give a fuck if it took all 8 years of his time in office.

Taking 5 weeks off is blatant disrespect considering the current circumstances.

I'm curious if anyone knows whether or not any previous presidents have taken vacations (of either the working or non-working variety) during previous armed conflicts?

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Ashtanga 0]

This vacation is, by historical standards, the longest presidential retreat in at least 36 years.

[rehmwa 2]

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I'm curious if anyone knows whether or not any previous presidents have taken vacations (of either the working or non-working variety) during previous armed conflicts?

I hear the least number of vacation days in a term (vacation meaning working from home or retreat instead working in the white house - as the case of most presidents of either party) was Jimmy Carter. He was a real winner

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ViperPilot 0]

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especially when a good chunk of the country and the rest of the world didn't agree to it in the first place.

The Clintons, your beloved John Kerry (I'm assuming, so sorry if I'm incorrect), Senator Byrd, William Cohen, good ol' Chirac, and countless others ALL agreed that Iraq had WMDs, or at least posed some sort of threat related to WMDs, and thusly had to be disarmed. Every single one of them thought Saddam had to be dealt with. So yeah, all those people, including Bush, made decisions based on the intel at the time. So if you want to call Bush an idiot for doing it, then call Kerry, Clinton, Chirac, and the rest of the lot idiots too. They were all in the same boat together on this one.

We all like to say what we would have done knowing what we do now, but none of us can say what we would have done only having the info at the time. When someone points a gun at you, you don't stand there and wait to see if he actually pulls the trigger, you do something to try and stop the action that you perceive is about to happen (whether the gunman is actually planning on shooting you or not). Personally, someone pulls a weapon on me, they're getting a nice .40 right though the head from the good old Glock. Were they only planning on scaring me and not actually shooting me? Well who will know, because I'm not taking the chance, I'm saving my own life.

[TomAiello 25]

More info here. I just found it with google, and don't know anything about it's accuracy.

I'd be curious to compare the modern presidents listed there with folks like FDR, or Lincoln, or Washington. Or with presidents who had less trying terms.

I wonder if a president every took a vacation while there were enemy troops in US territory?

Personally, I think that we'd be better off if every president took at least a week off each year to attend a big boogie.

-- Tom Aiello

[email protected]
SnakeRiverBASE.com

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Outside the debate of whether or not the war is justified can anybody justify our President taking a 5 week vacation while people are dying fighting for this country. As far as I am concerned he is disrespecting all the families of soldiers that have died and is basically spitting in the american publics face by doing this. How many of those soldiers probably wish they could take a fucking vacation right now???

A true leader would not take one day of vacation until every last possible troop was brought home safely. Or perhaps that is just my definition of what a true leader is, i dont give a fuck if it took all 8 years of his time in office.

Taking 5 weeks off is blatant disrespect considering the current circumstances.

Perhaps you missed the "working vacation" part? What exactly do you think Bush can do in Washington, that he can't do in Crawford, Tx.? Do you know there are people who actually rarely go to their offices? It's called tele-commuting. It involves the wonderous technology of computers, the internet, telephones etc.

[funks 1]

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They were all in the same boat together on this one

Nobody was in the same boat because all those people you mentioned arent our president. There is only one person for the people who dont believe WMD's existed to blame and that is Bush. This isnt a elementary school playground whereas you can place blame because other kids were doing the same thing. I dont give a shit who else agreed or disagreed with bush, he is the one to blame when shit goes wrong just as he is the one that takes credit when shit goes right.

[tcnelson 1]

i have no idea what it's like to be the president on a daily basis so, i don't know if he needs a vacation or not. i do know that he means no disrespect to any military member.

having been a soldier, you are absolutely correct when you say that most of the soldiers in foreign theaters want a vacation right now.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[ViperPilot 0]

Bush will be doing just as much work there as he would sitting in the WH. Just like gravity said, it's now a wonderous part of your technological world today where you can get the same work done at a multitude of locations. And none of us know what kind of stress that job entails...just doing the work in a homely environment would help stress a lot...I would think anyways. None of us has the right to comment on if he chooses to do his job somewhere else for a while to calm the stress. The President's job is more stressful than any other person on this planet. None of us have any idea about it because none of us have been there.

Oh, and as a member of the military, I don't take offense to him doing his work in TX. As long as the stuff gets done, fine by me. While military service brings us to shitty places sometimes, that's just part of the deal. None of us signed up to have an easy 9-5 job...we all knew that wouldn't happen. We give up a shitload of comforts some times to do our jobs, but we all knew this from day 1 (or at least we should have

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[funks 1]

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Perhaps you missed the "working vacation" part? What exactly do you think Bush can do in Washington, that he can't do in Crawford, Tx.? Do you know there are people who actually rarely go to their offices? It's called tele-commuting. It involves the wonderous technology of computers, the internet, telephones etc

Actually, no, I did not miss the term "working vacation" reread my original post. I dont give a fuck what he can do in TX vs. here. It is all about perception. It is being reported that this is a 5 WEEK VACATION. Yes, they use the word working but more importantly so they use the word VACATION.

Once again, It is all about perception, and the perception is that he is taking a 5 WEEK VACATION.

What has he done to deserve a 1 week vacation let alone 5 weeks?

[tcnelson 1]

he was discrediting the claim, as i was, that bush acted out of his own interests. if you don't think that a consensus among world leaders to oust saddam is enough reason to change your thinking then, no one here will be able to change your mind.

no sense trying to convince a brick to move on its own.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329

[Channman 2]

You don't have to be sitting behind a desk in Washington to know whats going on. We no longer get our information by pony express. But if I remember correctly the House and Senate are not in town as well...were is the tread on that.

The President no matter which party is in power is kept informed, daily briefings, and the ability to speak to world leaders at anytime, its called a phone. A Presidents job is 24/7 360, so take a deep breath, I'm sure the Sun will rise tomorrow and set as scheduled. And as in the past, this small irritation will pass and we will all find something else to complain about, me included.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Once again, It is all about perception, and the perception is that he is taking a 5 WEEK VACATION.

Oh, it's about perception allright. It's just that many of us don't percieve it as a problem.

Do you have the same problem with Congress being on a "non-working" vacation the entire month of August? Or is it just because you don't like GWB?

[tso-d_chris 0]

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Do you have the same problem with Congress being on a "non-working" vacation the entire month of August?

According to Article 1, Section 4, Clause 2 of the Constitution, Congress is only required to assemble one day per year.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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Do you have the same problem with Congress being on a "non-working" vacation the entire month of August?

According to Article 1, Section 4, Clause 2 of the Constitution, Congress is only required to assemble one day per year.

Too bad they don't.

[diverborg 0]

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with your philosophy, having thousands of people die due to chemical or nuclear or biological attacks and then responding is preferable to making a preemptive strike when warnings have been given and the international community is in agreement.

I would first like to start out by saying that I don't honestly know whether Iraq was a good idea or not, but...
What cracks me up the most about these anti-Bushers is that these are the same people that were pushing to impeach Bush because he didn't take any action against the Taliban before 9-11. I wish these people would just make up their mind, or just quit taking any side against Bush even though it contradicts their own philosophies. Either you act on intelligence or not, you can't try to impeach him for one and when he does the other try to impeach him again. This president thingy might be a more difficult job than you guys think.

[quade 3]

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The difference was Clinton was finally forced to admit he got a blow job from an intern and GWB hasn't admitted yet he started a war with a country just because I THINK he wanted to.

Please show me (as The White House certainly has failed to) ANY hard evidence that Iraq was an imminent threat to the U.S.


There, fixed that for ya....

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[AlexCrowley 0]

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What cracks me up the most about these anti-Bushers is that these are the same people that were pushing to impeach Bush because he didn't take any action against the Taliban before 9-11.

Wow I missed that one. I remember people bitching about impeachment on other reasons but never that one. Was this in the liberal blogging universe? That'd be the one that rubs the same Universes as the Freepers universe both are overlain by the 'insane babbling baboon' universe. As is totally evident by the BS spouted by both extremes.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[diverborg 0]

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Wow I missed that one. I remember people bitching about impeachment on other reasons but never that one. Was this in the liberal blogging universe? That'd be the one that rubs the same Universes as the Freepers universe both are overlain by the 'insane babbling baboon' universe. As is totally evident by the BS spouted by both extremes.

Actually that was pretty widespread on almost all newstations. It was quite awhile ago, and it was pretty shortlived in comparison to more serious issues. Can you honestly not remember this? The whole administration was under fire, they had trials and all. Do a search, I'm sure something will pop up. If you want dates and such, I don't have them right now. I was just going off of memory. I'm not the only one that remembers this, because I just had this discussion with a liberal friend of mine.

[AlexCrowley 0]

Ok found it. thanks. Thats just stupid.

TV's got them images, TV's got them all, nothing's shocking.

[ViperPilot 0]

Funks, all you're doing is calling the man an idiot for not having the info you do now with 20/20 hindsight. All I'm saying is you'd better call all those other politicians idiots too because they did the exact same thing. It's so easy to judge character when you have all the info after the fact. Well, if you're going to judge Bush's character for what you perceive to be total idiocy because of his thoughts on Iraq, then you wouldn't be fair or unbiased until you admit that all those other guys have to be judged as idiots too since they ALL had the same line of thinking as Bush.

Make a case for yourself by trying to present unbiased posts. I know it's hard sometime, for me and everyone else here, but refusing to accept this simple fact is just ridiculous. If Kerry had made the exact same decision back in 2001 (which based on him having the exact same opinion as Bush, he would have), would you be screaming hell at Kerry? I highly doubt it. One of Kerry's large planks was that he would have done things differently...but people saw through his obvious hindsight tactics and called bullshit. It's obvious the man would have most likely made similar decisions as GWB did in 2001, based on Kerry's opinions and statements at the time. His words at the time dictate my thought that he would have gone to war with Saddam.

[storm1977 0]

BTW - Here is a quote from John Kerry in 1998

This Week on Feb. 22, 1998, when Saddam was harassing U.N. weapons inspectors. "We have to be prepared to go the full distance" to disrupt Saddam's regime, Kerry says. Cokie Roberts asks him, "Does that mean ground troops in Iraq?" Kerry replies, "I'm personally prepared, if that's what it meant."

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[gravitational 0]

Please note that Franklin D. Roosevelt would disappear to his 'Little White House' in Warm Springs, GA during WWII. This is ultimately where he suffered a stroke and died 2 days later. For the conspiracy theorist, it is believed that there was a Nazi plot to knock him off.
To clarify, I am not a fan of Bush Jr. and believe that when the job gets tough, he stubles on his words and runs off to his ranch to hide.

[tcnelson 1]

i couldn't help but do this:

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when the job gets tough, he stubles on his words

the irony is thick folks.

"Don't talk to me like that assface...I don't work for you yet." - Fletch
NBFT, Deseoso Rodriguez RB#1329