To show the "Chairborn Rangers" what our troops are dealing with...

[LouDiamond 1]

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Do those 100 good things justify every bad thing?

If you see a picture and you think you see the whole thing, but in reality you only see a small portion of it, do you really see the whole picture?

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rhino 0]

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REGARDLESS of what others may think they know, what goes on, on a daily basis in these countries is for the greater good of the common people.

agreed.....

[rhino 0]

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Do those 100 good things justify every bad thing?

Do you live next to a Pesticide plant in Colorado by chance?

[SpeedRacer 1]

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Robert Fisk is a reputable journo this is the link to his site, I hope you've not just eaten.

didn't agree with the invasion of Iraq, nevertheless, I do not consider Robert Fisk to be a particularly "reputable journalist".

Speed Racer
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[n23x 0]

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...You are missing the point. I am saying you better have a reason to question something before you do it. The last thing I want our guys to do is to hesitate and end up dead because they are concerned about being excoriated because of a Chairborne Rangers 20/20 hindsite...

Actually, you are missing the point.

While I want our guys to not hesitate and end up dead, I also don't want our guys to feel they aren't responsible with regard to their actions.

I understand that to you their lives are paramount, but that is not justification for every action they perpetrate.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[n23x 0]

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do you really see the whole picture?

Any loss of life is unacceptable.

To attempt to justify it, to shirk responsibility just because our guys lives are more important, and to think that that reasoning is enough that "armchair quarterbacks/chairborne rangers" cannot question the validity of an action is crazy.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[n23x 0]

Do you live near a Trailer park in Michigan by chance?

With this fine note, I am probably out of here guys.

I have too many papers to grade, and it is far easier for me to just continue to corrupt college youth with my terrible mind.

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[dorbie 0]

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Robert Fisk is a reputable journo this is the link to his site, I hope you've not just eaten.

Robert Fisk is a radical left wing journalist working for the Daily Mirror (or he did), which in itself is just a little bit more left and anti-American than the Soviet era Pravda. On the political spectrum he's as biased, left wing and anti-American as it is possible to find. Claiming this guy is reputable used the word "reputable" very loosely.

At least Fisk is consistent though, his radical anti-Americanism isn't a new thing for him, he was radically anti-American during the Afghan campaign and absolutely opposed any American imperialist brutality aimed directly at the mass murderers and conspirators who had struck America. He was so anti-American that when he was almost lynched by a mob of Afghan refugees [while he was trying to uncover a humanitarian disaster in Afghanistan that never materialized for him (between complaints about the the dangers posed by US food drops)] he blamed the USA saying he totally understood why they wanted to lynch him, and he'd have lynched himself too if he were in their boots, given what America had done to them.

His repute goes way back.

When Saddam was subsidizing the families of child suicide bombers in Palestine to blow up children in Israel where was Fisk with the photographs?

We should have posted pictures of the child victims of Dresden on the front pages of our nationals in the UK and US during the second world war. Better to surrender to Hitler and let him expand his progrom worldwide than kill another child. Better to leave generations of Iraqi children for years to come under the dictates of Saddam than risk injury to a single child today. Better to let the Mid-East fester indefinitely until the chickens come home to roost on all our children.

[rhino 0]

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perpetrate

Tell me what that word means without looking it up?? do you even know?

[rhino 0]

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Robert Fisk is a radical left wing journalist working for the Daily Mirror (or he did), which in itself is just a little bit more left and anti-American than the Soviet era Pravda. On the political spectrum he's as biased, left wing and anti-American as it is possible to find. Claiming this guy is reputable used the word "reputable" very loosely.

At least Fisk is consistent though, his radical anti-Americanism isn't a new thing for him, he was radically anti-American during the Afghan campaign and absolutely opposed and American imperialist brutality aimed directly at the mass murderers and conspirators who had struck America. He was so anti-American that when he was almost lynched by a mob of Afghan refugees [while he was trying to uncover a humanitarian disaster in Afghanistan that never materialized for him (between complaints about the the dangers posed by US food drops)] he blamed the USA saying he totally understood why they wanted to lynch him, and he'd have lynched himself too if he were in their boots, given what America had done to them.

His repute goes way back.

When Saddam was subsidizing the families of child suicide bombers in Palestine to blow up children in Israel where was Fisk with the photographs?

We should have posted pictures of the child victims of Dresden on the front pages of our nationals in the UK and US during the second world war. Better to surrender to Hitler and let him expand his progrom worldwide than kill another child. Better to leave generations of Iraqi children for years to come under the dictates of Saddam than risk injury to a single child today. Better to let the Mid-East fester indefinitely until the chickens come home to roost on all our children.

Good post..

[craddock 0]

Thank you for your post

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[billvon 2,467]

>This is painful.. They need your support..

This soldier needs your support too:

-----------------------------------------------------------

On the morning of Sept. 11, 2001, before hearing anything about the terror attacks that would change the direction of American history, Mr. Delgado enlisted as a private in the Army Reserve. Suddenly, in ways he had never anticipated, the military took over his life. He was trained as a mechanic and assigned to the 320th Military Police Company in St. Petersburg. By the spring of 2003, he was in Iraq. Eventually he would be stationed at the prison compound in Abu Ghraib.

Mr. Delgado's background is unusual. He is an American citizen, but because his father was in the diplomatic corps, he grew up overseas. He spent eight years in Egypt, speaks Arabic and knows a great deal about the various cultures of the Middle East. He wasn't happy when, even before his unit left the states, a top officer made wisecracks about the soldiers heading off to Iraq to kill some ragheads and burn some turbans.

"He laughed," Mr. Delgado said, "and everybody in the unit laughed with him."

The officer's comment was a harbinger of the gratuitous violence that, according to Mr. Delgado, is routinely inflicted by American soldiers on ordinary Iraqis. He said: "Guys in my unit, particularly the younger guys, would drive by in their Humvee and shatter bottles over the heads of Iraqi civilians passing by. They'd keep a bunch of empty Coke bottles in the Humvee to break over people's heads."

He said he had confronted guys who were his friends about this practice. "I said to them: 'What the hell are you doing? Like, what does this accomplish?' And they responded just completely openly. They said: 'Look, I hate being in Iraq. I hate being stuck here. And I hate being surrounded by hajis.' "

"Haji" is the troops' term of choice for an Iraqi. It's used the way "gook" or "Charlie" was used in Vietnam.

Mr. Delgado said he had witnessed incidents in which an Army sergeant lashed a group of children with a steel Humvee antenna, and a Marine corporal planted a vicious kick in the chest of a kid about 6 years old. There were many occasions, he said, when soldiers or marines would yell and curse and point their guns at Iraqis who had done nothing wrong.

He said he believes that the absence of any real understanding of Arab or Muslim culture by most G.I.'s, combined with a lack of proper training and the unrelieved tension of life in a war zone, contributes to levels of fear and rage that lead to frequent instances of unnecessary violence.

Mr. Delgado, an extremely thoughtful and serious young man, balked at the entire scene. "It drove me into a moral quagmire," he said. "I walked up to my commander and gave him my weapon. I said: 'I'm not going to fight. I'm not going to kill anyone. This war is wrong. I'll stay. I'll finish my job as a mechanic. But I'm not going to hurt anyone. And I want to be processed as a conscientious objector.' "

He stayed with his unit and endured a fair amount of ostracism. "People would say I was a traitor or a coward," he said. "The stuff you would expect."

In November 2003, after several months in Nasiriya in southern Iraq, the 320th was redeployed to Abu Ghraib. The violence there was sickening, Mr. Delgado said. Some inmates were beaten nearly to death. The G.I.'s at Abu Ghraib lived in cells while most of the detainees were housed in large overcrowded tents set up in outdoor compounds that were vulnerable to mortars fired by insurgents. The Army acknowledges that at least 32 Abu Ghraib detainees were killed by mortar fire.

Mr. Delgado, who eventually got conscientious objector status and was honorably discharged last January, recalled a disturbance that occurred while he was working in the Abu Ghraib motor pool. Detainees who had been demonstrating over a variety of grievances began throwing rocks at the guards. As the disturbance grew, the Army authorized lethal force. Four detainees were shot to death.

Mr. Delgado confronted a sergeant who, he said, had fired on the detainees. "I asked him," said Mr. Delgado, "if he was proud that he had shot unarmed men behind barbed wire for throwing stones. He didn't get mad at all. He was, like, 'Well, I saw them bloody my buddy's nose, so I knelt down. I said a prayer. I stood up, and I shot them down.' "
-----------------------------------

[n23x 0]

per·pe·trate ( P ) Pronunciation Key (pûrp-trt)
tr.v. per·pe·trat·ed, per·pe·trat·ing, per·pe·trates

To be responsible for; commit: perpetrate a crime; perpetrate a practical joke.

An action to be responsible for? Sounds right to me.

When all else fails, argue semantics ehhh?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[Darius11 12]

Oh come on Bill don’t you know we never do any thing wrong I am sure the solder was justified for murdering the prisoners. They were insurgents.
You are a traitor to this country how dare you post something that is negative towards are troops.
They die so you can post this shit. Didn’t you know that Sadam was going to take over the Internet and he was going to invade the US and take away our freedom.


Edit. I forgot to call you a Chairborn Ranger

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

[craddock 0]

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This soldier needs your support too:

What a bunch of Bullshit. I don't buy it for a second. But hey if it fits your agenda it must be true.

Josj

btw- Who believes Coke is sending Glass bottles over to Iraq?

Bunch of crap, that's all that article is.

That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side.

[gjhdiver 0]

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That child was murdered as was all the thousands of children killed by coalition forces heres a picture of another child this one 'we' did.

You just keep drinking your Vodka while good men and women defend your right to do so..

Indeed I will. They're doing absolutely nothing for me right now except increasing my tax burden to pay for this adminstration's military adventurism.

I've been in the military, and this has got nothing whatsoever to do with protecting my freedom to do anything.

As I said, it doesn't matter what I think, as there are plenty of mindless war pimps who'll wrap themselves in the flag stateside, and send others off to an early and unecessary death.

You think it's OK. Vive le difference. Don't expect everyone to fall in lockstep behind you.

(By the way, I didn't write the quote that you attribute to me above that seems to have fired you up. Do try to be more careful when replying.)

[Hooknswoop 19]

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This is painful.. They need your support..

This soldier needs your support too:

Yes, they all do. War is a horrible thing and horrible things happen in war time. That does not make it right. But to blame out troops for being in Iraq and Afghanistan isn’t right. The article talked about the prisoners living in tents exposed to mortar fire while the guards lived in he cells. I’m OK with that. I would rather have the prisoners killed by their country men than our troops killed. I couldn’t care less if people want to hate our president, politicians, whatever for Iraq and Afghanistan, but don’t blame the troops, support them.

Derek

[christelsabine 1]

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He's from Germany bro.. He might still be harboring a bit of resentment for our countries last intervention with Germany..

Rhino

Dream on. While some folks still live in the past, the world turns, dude


Max showed wisdom. Why to waste any energy, brain, education on worthless discussions.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Darius11 12]

btw- Who believes Coke is sending Glass bottles over to Iraq?

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I don't know about Iraq but in Iran they still use the glass bottels, and they have there own factory there.

I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not." - Kurt Cobain

• Quote

[LouDiamond 1]

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Any loss of life is unacceptable.

With that line of thought, if we don't intervein does that automatically make us culpable as well? I know where I can find 500+ people who are glad we are here in their country right now that would be dead had we not been here. I have also lost 2 friends since I have been here and seen a good many more fellow Americans loose limbs or their life trying to help the people of this country.The people/organization that attacked the US on 9/11 also terrorize the people of this country.So explain to me how that is an attempt to shirk responsibility?It's not so much that people are questioning the validity as it is people wanting to further their motives based on the little that they actually know or are told by the media. Again, if all you can see is a corner of a picture and it is all you know, how can you tell someone who can see the whole picture that what he sees is wrong? The fact of the matter is that you and anyone else who hasn't been to these sides of the world during conflict have no factual basis to base your current belief in other than what you are fed from the media.You only know what you know, you don't know what you don't know.


The problem with this conversation/thread is that you are straying from the original topic and are trying to use circular logic to make your point.

And as you can see by the posts above this one , my point is being proven....arguing over this on the internet is pointless. The downward spiral has already begun.

BTW: there is no Coke in Iraq , especially in glass bottles. The only Coke you will find will have been brought in from the outside by the US. Since Isreal has a Coke plant, Pepsi products are the predominate drink in most Muslim countries.

"It's just skydiving..additional drama is not required"
Some people dream about flying, I live my dream
SKYMONKEY PUBLISHING

[rhino 0]

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Indeed I will. They're doing absolutely nothing for me right now except increasing my tax burden to pay for this adminstration's military adventurism.

I've been in the military, and this has got nothing whatsoever to do with protecting my freedom to do anything.

As I said, it doesn't matter what I think, as there are plenty of mindless war pimps who'll wrap themselves in the flag stateside, and send others off to an early and unecessary death.

You think it's OK. Vive le difference. Don't expect everyone to fall in lockstep behind you.

(By the way, I didn't write the quote that you attribute to me above that seems to have fired you up. Do try to be more careful when replying.)

Keep drinking......

It isn't about agreeing with or even supporting THE WAR.. It's about supporting the troops..

SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS.. SUPPORTING THE TROOPS..

Maybe you read that?

Rhino

[namgrunt 0]

ok held off saying this till now

if you have NOT served in uniform just shut the fxxx up

I am glad its there kids NOT mine
war sucks but rather it be there not here

kids kill ,

..

59 YEARS,OVERWEIGHT,BALDIND,X-GRUNT
LAST MIL. JUMP VIET-NAM(QUAN-TRI)
www.dzmemories.com

[billvon 2,467]

>What a bunch of Bullshit.

Why do you hate army reservists so much? They have enough to deal with without a bunch of people spitting on them.

[n23x 0]

enlisted = citizen?

.jim

"Don't touch my fucking Easter eggs, I'll be back monday." ~JTFC

[dorbie 0]

Carefull Bill, you'll be calling them child killers and spitting on them next.

All that skepticism you normally exhibit goes right out the window when you like the story, and when the story is bashing U.S. troops you love it.

Support for the war and our troops does not equate for support for outrageous conduct by ill disciplined units that should be prosecuted. But it's no kind of support when you jump on any negative opportunity. I don't have blind faith in a guy who got caught on the hop, shipped to Iraq and for all I know may have made up crap to swing a CO discharge. This guy claims to have witnessed a lot of illegal conduct and done absolutely squat about it except leave then blab to the press.

The real issue here is focus. There are lots of stories from Iraq and we incessantly accentuate the negative. Every campaign has illegal conduct, putting troops in charge of anything for very long can degenerate into a bad situation without discipline. It's happened with UK troops and they've been aggressively court-marshalled where there's evidence.

The thing that pisses me off most about some of these stories is that if it's true these squaddies are sowing the seeds for the death of more troops and their own prolonged involvement. Most of them are a lot smarter than that, and that's why I'm confident these are one sided versions of isolated incidents.

It's kinda like the reports that a US soldier had shot a surrendering, unarmed, wounded Iraqi. That's one side of the story that left a lot of important details out like the guy seemed to be feigning death and their unit being attacked by similar insurgents playing possum and then attacking with IEDs. That's before you even consider the guy was an illegal combatant with no legal rights who in past conflicts would have been hanged from the nearest lamp post by U.S. troops wounded or not, as would most of the guys in the prison for fighting using guerilla tactics after a regime has fallen.

How far we've progressed.