The 'Oh no its cool, I'm a really good skydiver' attiude

[Trivial_Trekker 0]

Regulations are set in place to prevent the same accidents happening over and over again.
The way i see it..... is when someone is jumping in a controlled enviroment, such as a DZ there has to be rules/regs. They are guidlines to make it a safe"er" place for everyone, whether it is a newb or experienced jumper.

I dont think its a good idea to letting people downsize as they please, because they do not understand their own capibilities as well as what the canopy can do.

If some newb really badly wants to fly a sub hundred canopy he can do it in his own back yard where he doesnt put others at risk.




btw this post not directed to anyone in particular, just soem thoughts i had.....

[recovercrachead 0]

This is why we started bounce bingo/death pool . It really works. Makes people look at them selves.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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For example, if one night after the bonfire goes out, a guy tries to rape one of the ladies. He's caught in the act, and stopped before he gets too far. How would this guy be treated in the future? Would he even be welcome at the DZ? Both socially, and from a DZ policy stand point?

My guess is that after getting his ass severly beat, this guy would be persona non grata at most DZ's in the area. The jumpers wouldn't have it.

I'm not thrilled with the analogy. THis difference is criminal behavior vs someone with bad judgement being put on equal basis.

The guy in the analogy should be held until the police arrive. Anyone that 'beats' him beyond what's necessary to stop the crime and restrain him should also leave in handcuffs. Self righteous/vigilante justice is not what we need to embrace. Beating him up (criminal assault) and letting him go to attack some other girl in another sport or location just makes the locals feel good and all macho about themselves.

While - some ignorant idiot thinks he's ready to hook and swoop and continues to put himself in danger needs something local in terms of retraining. And if he can't stop making bad judgment after the first intervention ostracizing might not be so bad as you suggested. I'd agree with 1 strike and you're out in this case.

I like your post about unsafe jumpers. I'm not thrilled with how you'd handle a rapist.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dharma1976 0]

I posted soething like this a while ago....but then I guess I was the guy with fifty jumps loaded abotu the same on a safire...what I learned is that that is not the best idea...

I lived...but let me tell you the arthritus is not fun....nor is the creaks and aches...

so tell your buddy if he wants to be a short term jumps and not a lifetime jumper...keep not listening to the people who have seen this before...they aint saying shit for their health but his...

(Oh and I was a hella great skydiver when I gained my titanium, and if he still doesnt listen...tell him to go to skyjunky.com com after he hurts himself and buy one of my if your gonna be dumb youve gotta be tough shirts)

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[Digitalmafia 0]

My friend is a Base jumper and he told me that when he started jumping he had a BASE mentor who pretty much helped him stay alive long enough to learn the ropes.
I dont have any Base ambitions(I just want to be a great skydiver) but I guess I expected and found a whole group of people who are my mentors - Sure I am a bad ass chopper riding, skydiving, martial arts blah blah blah kinda guy (in my own mind ..;) but if the people I respect and am learning from tell me that I shouldnt do "that" man I jump on their advice - the only way to be great is to listen and learn from great people. Posers dont last long in anything they do-and this guy your talking about...his ego is doing the driving and he will never be great (although he will likely be humbled...eventually).

[MB38 0]

I jump a Sabre 2 at about 1.3-1.4, for comparison's sake.

On the day I got my 100th jump under a 170 at 1.2, a fellow jumper at Perris did the same... He has the same exit weight as me but he was jumping a 119 Safire 2 at 1.6+. He'll probably read this post.

But hey, I guess he's a really good skydiver.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[AFFI 0]

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I jump a Sabre 2 at about 1.3-1.4, for comparison's sake.

WL of 1.4 on a Sabre2 with 100 jumps seems a bit aggressive.
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[bazelos 0]

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I call that..." not yet realizing your mortality"

Uh, I hope someone teaches sense to me before I find that out the hard way.

He who makes a beast of himself gets rid of the pain of being a man.

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[MagicGuy 0]

Ya know, some people think that I am trying to be a cool guy because I want to be on a smaller canopy. I'm currently on a Triathlon 160 with 87 jumps. BUT, my exit weight is 140 pounds. So my reason for wanting to be on a smaller canopy is so I get better penetration into the wind. Sure helps out on a windy day, or a not-so-good spot.

I don't know a whole lot about Diablos, but I have heard that they are the most radical 7 cell you will ever come across. I don't want to be associated with the adjective radical any time soon. 1.4 wing loading at 57 jumps seems a little bit ridiculous for ANY canopy, nevermind a canopy like that.

Talk to the S&TA and see what he thinks. I have a feeling he will not approve.

[MB38 0]

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I jump a Sabre 2 at about 1.3-1.4, for comparison's sake.

WL of 1.4 on a Sabre2 with 100 jumps seems a bit aggressive.
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I often consider the same point. I think my exit weight in my profile is wrong... I just calculated my main wl to 1.32. That number obviously fluctuates.

I don't have much to say to justify my WL. I started jumping on a 230 solo, 220 nav, 230 tri, 210 spectre, 210 pilot, 188 pilot, 169 sabre... next is a 149 sabre that I will likely purchase. I've also demoed the PDR. I've been renting gear from Sqare One this whole time.

Beyond that, what's there to say? My progress has been watched by those at Square One in the same way that they watch any other jumper. I have no formal canopy training because I do not yet own my own gear. I take it straight in, high performance approaches give me the willies [I've witnessed 2 fatalities and seen many a femur over the last 8 years or so] and I've read The Parachute and Its Pilot twice. I must be a great canopy pilot! Better than all those other 100-jump wonders.

I don't know. I'm comfortable with it, those that jump with me are comfortable with it, those that rent me the gear are comfortable with it. I like to think I can handle it, but everybody thinks that right up until they break their legs. I may be the pot calling the kettle black here, it's tough to say. I despeartely hope I don't come across that way.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[peregrinerose 0]

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I may be the pot calling the kettle black here, it's tough to say. I despeartely hope I don't come across that way.

Ummmm, yeah, you kinda do.

Exactly what are you hoping on achieving by moving down again at 100 jumps? What can you get out of a smaller canopy that you can't get from your present one? Can you land your canopy in every wind condition that you would jump in someone's back yard? Have you exhausted the possibilities of learning the flight characteristics of your current canopy?

Ask yourself those questions, talk with instructors, take a canopy control course, and figure out your game plan from there.

Personally, I have 380+ jumps, the first 100 on a Sabre 170, now on a Spectre 150 for the rest of them at a 1.1/1 I can land it on a dime in any condition, and have put a couple of jumps on a Pilot 132, but still have a lot to learn from my Spectre before thinking about downsizing. It'll happen... but the sky isn't going anywhere, so why hurry?

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[MB38 0]

It's interesting... I do ask myself those questions, I do talk with instructors, I do observe other jumpers and I spend more time reading and learning than I probably should. Every time I do this I find myself being described as the conservative one. Out of everybody I've talked to [again, ranging from instructors to coaches to fellow jumpers], the only people who tell me to upsize are those on the internet. It's years [years] of reading, learning and discussion that has actually led me to the plan I'm on.

I always find myself in the exact opposite situation of this one: declining to start high-performance approaches, defending my "huge" canopy, asking friends to talk to an instructor about their canopy choice, telling people that I'd rather learn the right way than the hard way. The whole time I don't give advice because I simply don't know enough to. A 100-jump friend can go on for a half hour about how "easy" and "fun" his 90s are on that hot new 120 and I'll just nod silently.

I don't know. I have no desire to ever get into small canopies. I do not want to take up swooping in the least. It puts me in an awkward position... I'm doing what I've been told in person is a safe, reasonable canopy progression and I'm being told online that I'm a 100-jump wonder flying a napkin who's going to hook it in. Who do I trust? The people who I can sit down with, talk with and jump with, or the people who I can type questions to online?

So this is me a little unnerved now. I have canopy progression chats almost every time I'm at the dropzone. I've been trying from day one to do this "right". I don't want to be that 100-jump wonder, I don't want to be that hot-shot who thinks he can out fly anybody... and in my mind I'm not! I'm not putting you on here, I'm being serious. I want to be as humble as humanly possible.

It would seem that those chats I have are due for a slight perspective change next week... regardless of the result. The "think about it, ask yourself questions, talk to instructors, etc." post is one I've read a hundred times to a hundred different jumpers. Just not to me.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[AFFI 0]

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spend more time reading and learning than I probably should

Don’t know if that is possible, good job! Keep it up...


You are correct about knowing your own limitations and no one else can make the final decision other then the person strapping it on and jumping.

The point I am trying to make is there will be a lot of people saying a particular WL is fine for such and such a person and they are not exactly conservative. Hell, I have seen a highly respected S&TA with 30 years/10,000+ jumps ok someone with 100 jumps to fly a Stiletto at a 1.35WL. To me this was ludicrous, and a Saber 2 is not much further off that track – definitely not conservative, but that is just my opinion, I may be wrong.

A lot of other skydivers rib me about flying a "student canopy” ([email protected]) at my skill/experience level. I am current, proficient and can progress toward any canopy available but I have fun where I am at, am able to make the long surfs and can put my canopy down in tight spots when the chips are down, so why downsize? When I had around 100 jumps I settled into a 1.1 WL on a Saber and stayed there until I had around 400 landings on it (at the time some told me that was too aggressive). Does flying a wing with .25 additional WL make a difference? Maybe. Just maybe it could make the difference between snapping a femur and walking away when the chips are down, landing off and having to put my canopy down in some backyard surrounded by power lines and barking dogs.

Chances are the new jumper with 100 jumps flying a 1.4 WL on a Saber 2 will never encounter any problems, but all it takes is one series of small mistakes that add up to a situation. The .25 difference might possibly make the difference.

No need to defend yourself – go for it!
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[peregrinerose 0]

First, I have a shitload of respect for your post... I'd love to meet you in person and jump with you just based on that! I just asked questions... didn't tell you the answers to them... I don't know anything about you... your instructors do. What I forgot to add before was to read this article: http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/safety/detail_page.cgi?ID=47

When I went from my 170 Sabre to my 150 Spectre, I was actually going to just follow the advice of one rigger and get a Sabre2. Until someone else made me re-think that. He asked me what my skydiving goals would be in the next several hundred jumps. Specifically, why did I want a smaller size? What kind of jumping did I want to be getting into? What canopy would meet those goals?

I bought the Spectre instead because my goals were CRW and video... better served with the Spectre than Sabre 2.

I have almost 300 jumps on that canopy now. Friends are downsizing, my husband is downsizing. Honestly, the thought of downsizing myself crossed my mind since everyone else is too. But then I tried to come up with one good reason why I needed a smaller canopy. I couldn't come up with a single reason. Given that I have no reason to go smaller and although I fly my canopy well, I still have a lot to learn, especially as I'm starting both video and CRW soon. I'll learn more by flying the hell out of this canopy than by constantly moving down in size before being truly proficient with the canopy I have.

When I read your post, you have 100 jumps and have tried 7 canopies, thinking about moving down to an 8th. I just wondered what your reasoning was behind it, what do you want to gain from going smaller yet? Have you maxed out your learning potential on your present canopy? That's between you and your instructors, not me!

I'm an eye doc... I think it's impossible to diagnose and treat disease on the internet, only give people some questions to ask of themselves or their docs. Skydiving isn't much different to me... it's impossible to coach or really be specific on here, and with 380 jumps, I'm not qualified to be specific even in person
I just wanted to arm you with the same questions that other people asked of me... it wasn't meant to freak you out!

Jen

Do or do not, there is no try -Yoda

[MB38 0]

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I just asked questions... didn't tell you the answers to them... I don't know anything about you... your instructors do.

Oh, don't worry, I knew you were merely asking questions. A reread of my post tells me it was a little defensive... I blame the internet. I have read Bill's article on downsizing - I have been through the checklist on every canopy I've jumped [with the exception of anything involving front risers. I also didn't dare land on rears when I was just starting].

Don't worry, I know you weren't head-hunting or trying to freak me out. I'd just rather put a fleshed-out response out there right off the bat rather than a "nuh-uh! I can fly my canopy fine!"

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Don’t know if that is possible, good job! Keep it up...

Except when it cuts into into my work and life on the ground.

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You are correct about knowing your own limitations and no one else can make the final decision other then the person strapping it on and jumping.

Eeegh, this is the same quote I've seen posted to pacify some posters who stop their feet with "you don't know me!" declarations. I hope I didn't come across as such... there's only so much that can be learned in 103 jumps.

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Chances are the new jumper with 100 jumps flying a 1.4 WL on a Saber 2 will never encounter any problems, but all it takes is one series of small mistakes that add up to a situation. The .25 difference might possibly make the difference.

This is the key.

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No need to defend yourself – go for it!

Is that a "go for it, maybe you'll make it!" or a "go for it, it's not that big of a deal"? I like my femurs.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[happythoughts 0]

One hundred jumps is one hundred landings.
That's the way that I look at it.

If people manage to do 20 of those jumps in f-ed up conditions, I think that helps them get a broader experience perspective.

[AFFI 0]

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Is that a "go for it, maybe you'll make it!" or a "go for it, it's not that big of a deal"? I like my femurs.

I try to never communicate the maybe you'll make it idea. No one was as guaranteed to not make it to 200 jumps as much as me when I started. Everyone thought I would eat it. If every skydiver that is suspected of progressing too fast died this sport would not be as populated as it is cuz most of us testosterone drenched males would be dead.

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I have read Bill's article on downsizing - I have been through the checklist on every canopy I've jumped [with the exception of anything involving front risers. I also didn't dare land on rears when I was just starting].

Evaluate the progression you have taken and honestly answer this question for you and no one else. If you have in fact progressed per Bill’s checklist then you are much quicker to become proficient than the above average canopy pilot that is learning how to fly and land a canopy at a proficient level. That is why it is imperative that you make an honest assessment and be forthcoming with yourself about it. I have seen skydiver’s upsize early on in their progression because they realized they were trying to progress too quickly and there ain’t no shame in upsizing based on an honest evaluation of oneself.

The idea is to never get injured skydiving and with the fatalities and serious injuries taking the trend they have over recent years in this sport it is likely that overall, skydivers are progressing too quickly in downsizing. There is no need to fly the hot canopies, we have the rest of our lives to skydive but what 16 year old doesn’t want a Ferrari as soon as they get their drivers license? Personally, I equate that analogy to a skydiver with only 100 landings flying a Saber2 at a 1.35/1.4 WL.

Lets say you get 5 minutes of canopy piloting practice with every canopy descent so 100 jumps is only 500 minutes of learning how to pilot a parachute. 100 final approaches is only around a minute each at the most and 100 flares is only a few seconds each, this is really not a lot of practice to reach a level of proficiency.

Before I started skydiving I raced high performance motorcycles for years and am familiar all too well with the desire to go fast and be cool. I am not saying this is your motivation but it sure a hell was mine. Had I started skydiving when I still had an overload of testosterone I probably wouldn’t have lasted long. Fortunately I was able to be somewhat sensible and progress in my canopy selections slowly because when I looked at the fatalities I recognized the trend of people downsizing too rapidly. I selected mentors that were not on the downsize quickly bandwagon and listened to them.
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Mykel AFF-I10
Skydiving Priorities: 1) Open Canopy. 2) Land Safely. 3) Don’t hurt anyone. 4) Repeat…

[MB38 0]

I have a lot to [re]think about. Thanks to all.

I really don't know what I'm talking about.

[two40 0]

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I know a jumper (who will probably read this) who is loading a diablo 170 @ about 1.4 with 50 jumps.

unfortunately there is nothing to prevent the macho's of this world. not enough people skydive so the general public doesn't care much.

take cars for example. here in aus we have states that limit which cars students can use. it also places limits beyond the normal 18 or 21 ages. so if i'm 24 and want a V8 powered car or a turbo powered one etc i can not legally own one or drive one. the provision is up to 25 years old. anyway, my point is cars on the road affect everyone so the general public votes and supports laws like this where up there in the sky no one really cares what you do.

if there were laws (not recommendations that mean jack shit) that prevent wing loading we would see a drop in fatalities and injuries.

[astleysean 0]

I've a mere 60 jumps and have just bought my first rig, a Sabre2 loaded at 1:2. Before I bought it I...

1. Downsized on rental gear - Nav240, Nav220, PD 210 (I think, definately a 210), Silhouette 210, Silhouette 190.

2, Got my CH1 and CH2 qualifications and my B licence (for the accuracy part amongst others). I'm in the UK, obviously.

3. Got comfortable on the 190. Never fell over when landing it in a variety of conditions from zero wind to winds just under the limit, opened high and carried out drills with risers and toggles as per CH1 and 2 on every jump.

4. Discussed canopy size and handling with both CCIs at the dropzones I use and my AFF and FS instructors. A 170 was not seen as too aggressive. No-one told me I was being dangerous or irresponsible. The consensus was either a 190 or a 170.

I have tried to take a mature and responsible approach to gear selection. I am far from an adrenaline soaked youth (I'm 40) and have NO interst at all in swooping. Reading some of this thread gives me the impression that I will be lucky if I make it through the next year.

Have I missed something?

[NelKel 0]

Have I missed something? <<<<



Maybe, maybe not. depends..... Low turn to avoid obsticals seems to be left out from your analogy of your skills, and seems to be very high on the list of killers. With 60 under your belt ask your self how many jumps have you landed great in adverse coinditions? Will you be OK on a demo into a small landing field at that wing loading, when the wind suddenly shoots up to gusts?

My friend... at 60 jumps you should not even be on an eliptical canopy..(stiletto) 60 pack jobs alone is suspect . Not trying to shit on you just take a look at the cold hard facts..... Good luck, peace

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[astleysean 0]

Flat turns and obstacle avoidance are part of the CH system.

Um... its a Sabre 2 not a Stiletto, slightly tapered not eliptical.

Don't worry, I don't feel shit on, I posted to find out others views and how they fit in with the advice I've received face to face.

[NelKel 0]

Dude, GO for it!

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Someone dies, someone says how stupid, someone says it was avoidable, someone says how to avoid it, someone calls them an idiot, someone proposes rule chan

[kkeenan 13]

It's been interesting, over the years to watch the progress of the sport and its participants. After so many years and so many people, it's hard to get too involved in people's safety. I make sure that I'm doing what I consider safe and let others do the same. This is, after all, a sport of self-reliance.

In the long run, it's kind of like watching a wildlife show. Each spring, the young bucks jump around like they're some newly-created super species. They venture closer and closer to the lions at the edge of the clearing, knowing for sure that they are invulnerable. A lot of times they do just fine. Sometimes, they get ripped to shreds with their last thought being, "I'm so cool, how can this be happening?"

They come, they go. That's life in this sport. It's been a long time since someone has died in a unique way in skydiving. Most fatalities come from people repeating a mistake that has killed someone else. How dumb is that ?

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Dude, you are so awesome...
Can I be on your ash jump ?

[Pulse 0]

I don't know if I see a huge difference between elliptical and semi-tapered. What concerns me is a wing-loading of 1.2:1.

By todays standards that's not high. But it would've been considered high for someone of your numbers 10 years ago. In fact, I believe 1.2:1 is where canopies started to be considered 'high-performance'. What has changed besides the labels? Nothing.

As a student you were in somewhat 'ideal' conditions. Now you're on your own. You will make mistakes, you will get in over your head. We all do it, that's part of the fun right? But you want to be able to do this and get away with it. Be able to make your mistakes without trips to the hospital. I was considering recently that in my early days I was flying a much larger canopy than any of my other newly licensed friends at the DZ. Looking back, I realize I'm the ONLY one who didn't go to the hospital at least once. I never even took a weekend from jumping because of a 'lightly' injured ankle or anything. Coincidence?

As for not feeling like you'll be lucky to make it to next year? Good. Not to scare, but I don't think many people have that good of an understanding of their own mortality. It never hurts to see things as being a little more dangerous. As long as it only serves to increase your performance.

"Any language where the unassuming word fly signifies an annoying insect, a means of travel, and a critical part of a gentleman's apparel is clearly asking to be mangled."