DexterBase 1 #1 March 8, 2005 I recently purchased a HK USP 40 Compact. I have put about 400 rounds through it so far and I put another 700 through a range rental before I bought mine. I absolutely love it. I bought some Federal Hydra Shok and some Speer Gold Dot ammo. Both fire and feed flawlessly through my pistol. I read a rather interesting article and I am looking for opinions on the best personal defense round available to civilians. Any favorites out there? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
sfzombie13 321 #2 March 8, 2005 i prefer 9mm copper clad rounds, or buckshot. if an intruder is in your house, you don't want a bullet going through the wall and hitting your wife and child. .40 cal is nice, meets these requirements, as do .38, .41, and in some cases even .45. any of the magnum loads are out. hydra shok is a good round for taking someone down, and there was a round called talon or something which worked off of the same principle, but i haven't seen those in a while. the pump shotgun is your best home defense gun, a lot of times the sound of the action being worked will make an intruder piss his pants._________________________________________ Si hoc legere scis nimium eruditionis habes Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
askir 0 #3 March 8, 2005 this all sounds so cool....guy coming into your home in the middle of the early AM, your eyes are so blurry, it is dark, you find your pistol, and all you have to do is find the moving silhouette and shoot, provided it is not your wife, when it was all said and done, the 110 GS did a much better job and faster than expected. 110 GS = 110lbs German Shepherd, the dude had over 100 stitches plus a nice ass whooping from the cops....happenned to a nice neighbor of mine, he sold his pistol and got a second dog just like the first one...lawsuit? fuck no...he sued the guy for destroying his property and causing injury to his pooch. LIFE IS LIKE A CIGARETTE, YOU CAN SIT THERE AND WATCH IT BURN AWAY OR YOU CAN SMOKE THAT BITCH TO THE FILTER Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
markd_nscr986 0 #4 March 8, 2005 Glaser Safety Slugs Marc SCR 6046 SCS 3004 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ryoder 1,589 #5 March 8, 2005 Quotethere was a round called talon or something which worked off of the same principle, but i haven't seen those in a while. Info on the Black Talon and it's descendents: http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs12.htm"There are only three things of value: younger women, faster airplanes, and bigger crocodiles" - Arthur Jones. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 10 #6 March 8, 2005 Quote the 110 GS did a much better job and faster than expected Why not have the dog and the gun? Quoteprovided it is not your wife Or your wife could know not to sneak into or break into your house."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #7 March 8, 2005 I'd go with hollow points. They blow an awful big hole, yet they should have enough penetration to get the job done. I'd sure hate to get hit with one....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #8 March 8, 2005 Quote the pump shotgun is your best home defense gun, reply] I agree. A short barreled shotgun is hard to beat for close in shooting...and it won't penetrate too many walls....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #9 March 8, 2005 QuoteGlaser Safety Slugs I agree. If you're using a handgun for home defense, Glaser rounds are a great choice because they are unlikely to make it out of the house and into an innocent bystander, but they'll still have plenty of takedown capacity when they are on target. Given a wider choice, I think I'd have to go with the shotgun folks, though. It's easier to hit things, if you are short on training. Of course, if you are long on training, use whatever you're best trained with.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #10 March 8, 2005 Quotethis all sounds so cool....guy coming into your home in the middle of the early AM, your eyes are so blurry, it is dark, you find your pistol, and all you have to do is find the moving silhouette and shoot, provided it is not your wife... "Cheyenne Ray, 44, was alerted by his girlfriend, Tanya Rivera, 31, that she heard a noise at the front door about 1:30 a.m. Ray looked through the glass storm door and saw a hand holding a 9-mm pistol strike the glass. Ray went into the kitchen, got a shotgun, and fired one shot at the door. The burglar dropped the gun and ran off." http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-liburg064167017mar06,0,252717.story "Georgia Belle Sullivan says she was sleeping before dawn yesterday when her dogs' barking woke her up. She retrieved her gun, then saw a shadow move behind a line of chairs. She told authorities that's when a man lunged at her. She fired once at close range, hitting 44-year-old Arthur Sanford. Sanford had a string of arrests and served time in a state prison for armed robbery. All the doors and windows to the home were locked, but Sanford entered the home through a firewood storage area. Sanford also cut the phone lines outside the house and had taped a sweat shirt to his head as a makeshift mask." http://www.klfy.com/Global/story.asp?S=2961624 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #11 March 8, 2005 QuoteI'd go with hollow points. Hollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... Make sure you do a lot of target practice with your chosen load to ensure reliability. Don't just buy them and assume they'll work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #12 March 8, 2005 Quote think I'd have to go with the shotgun folks, though. It's easier to hit things, if you are short on training. The spread of shot in typical home defense ranges of 20 feet or less is minimal, and doesn't really significantly increase your odds of hitting your target. There are other good reasons for using a shotgun, but I don't think that this is one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #13 March 8, 2005 I was more thinking that it's easier to hit things with a shoulder gun than a handgun (rather than the shot spread thing).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites DexterBase 1 #14 March 8, 2005 I'm pretty damn surgical with handguns. I know without even using the sights I can put 80% of rounds on a 3x5 index card at distances equal to anywhere inside my apartment. That's squeezing them off fairly quickly too. I've done some shooting in combat situations too. That part I'm not worried about. What I'm referring to is what rounds are the most effective for personal defense. More specifically, what rounds cause the most damage (largest wound channel, highest energy transferred to the target, etc.) in a personal defense application. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites warpedskydiver 0 #15 March 8, 2005 The best Idea is either a shotgun with 00 pellets or a 5.56x45mm weapon i.e. a short barreled M4 or similar it excels far past any pistol ammo in CQC situations and doesnt overpenetrate on walls etc. especially while using soft point or ballistic tipped ammo. If you have any questions I can supply the DoD study that was done and is currently used in the military and law enforcement SWAT today Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #16 March 8, 2005 Interesting bit on Glasier rounds here. It mostly contradicts my opinions (expressed previously) and I'll freely admit that the writer appears more expert than myself (as I'm not expert on weapons at all). There's also a thread on personal defense ammo here. Google is always an interesting toy...-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #17 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'd go with hollow points. Hollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... Make sure you do a lot of target practice with your chosen load to ensure reliability. Don't just buy them and assume they'll work. I've never heard this before. I suppose it could be true though. I've tried several brands of hollow points through my own automatic and they all seem to work fine. Not all bullets are shaped the same, nor have the same jacket, and all these factors could cause problems in an automatic. Even some solid bullets don't feed as well as others and testing them yourself in your own firearm is a smart decision. I have one older automatic that jams if it's not perfectly clean and oiled, and it's very finicky about what ammo feeds well in it. (It needs some work.) I've seen a lot of autos that jam in cold weather. But cold weather is not a factor in a home defense situation. So I agree, A person needs to test his weapon with different loads and under different conditions, to find what works best...Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites TomAiello 26 #18 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'd go with hollow points. Hollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... John, would you recommend a revolver for home defense? Or, more completely, what would/do you use in this role?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #19 March 8, 2005 QuoteI was more thinking that it's easier to hit things with a shoulder gun than a handgun (rather than the shot spread thing). I agree with that, and this is one of those "other reasons" to which I alluded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites JohnRich 4 #20 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteHollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... John, would you recommend a revolver for home defense? Or, more completely, what would/do you use in this role? My comment did apply to semi-auto pistols only. Revolvers wouldn't have that problem, and are considered by many to be more reliable. But then you are also limited to just six rounds (usually), whereas a semi-auto can have up to 15 or so. Revolvers are simple point and shoot tools and don't require elaborate knowledge of malfunction-clearing procedures. I keep a .45 pistol handy for myself. But what is best for each person is a highly personal choice, determined by a number of factors. The .45 is just what I like and practice with the most, so that's what works for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites craddock 0 #21 March 9, 2005 I am playing with my new 1911 right now. I can't wait to shoot it. All I have is cheap ball ammo right now, but can you give me a good load have around for it. Of course I would shoot it first. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites gmanpilot 0 #22 March 9, 2005 QuoteThe best Idea is either a shotgun From a tactical and self defense standpoint, I'm not a fan of scatter guns, especially if anyone else is living with you. It can get crowded indoors where shot placement trumps just about everything else. As far as ammo...Speer Gold Dot is very good...there are maany others._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikieB 0 #23 March 9, 2005 dexter. id go with the speer gold dot it has the best ballistics, penetration and expansion of any of the carry ammo I have seen. Its what i carry in my glock 30 and my 19 same with everyone I know. its very trustworthyconfucious say: he who stands on top of toilet gets high on pot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites mikieB 0 #24 March 9, 2005 by the way i think a lot of the colorado b team and c team guys are planning on going to the bridge soon, talk to peterconfucious say: he who stands on top of toilet gets high on pot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites steve1 5 #25 March 9, 2005 Quote[ The spread of shot in typical home defense ranges of 20 feet or less is minimal, and doesn't really significantly increase your odds of hitting your target. There are other good reasons for using a shotgun, but I don't think that this is one of them. This is a good point that needs to be discussed. A lot of people don't realize that at point blank range a shotgun pattern isn't much bigger than the bore of the barrel. This is something a person needs to test using probably with an improved cylinder choke if you plan on shooting very close. Buckshot won't pattern as well as a round that has more BB's, so this is another thing to test out. Beyond 20 ft. there is a very definite pattern to work with though, and this can help greatly in hitting you target. I don't shoot a pistol much. If a person has a lot of skill with one, maybe that is the weapon to choose. I shoot a shotgun quite a bit. I have a lot of confidence in shooting one even if most of my practice is shooting birds. I have a short barrel that I use for turkey hunting and home defense. I just think I'd be better able to hit a bad guy with the first shot, when conditions are far from ideal.....For example when your heart is beating a hundred miles per hour, when a bad guy is shooting back, or it is pitch black out, or your target may be moving. I'd just feel a lot more confident with a shotgun. For others it may be a pistol. I've seen some true life fire fights on TV where the bad guy is shooting it out with police. Some times they are only a car length apart. Often times bullets are flying everywhere. Even the trained professionals are often missing a lot of shots in these scenarios. A shotgun my be slower to draw and fire, but it would be more deadly in my hands than a pistol. Maybe if I shot a pistol more I might feel different....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites Prev 1 2 Next Page 1 of 2 Join the conversation You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account. Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible. Reply to this topic... × Pasted as rich text. Paste as plain text instead Only 75 emoji are allowed. × Your link has been automatically embedded. Display as a link instead × Your previous content has been restored. Clear editor × You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL. Insert image from URL × Desktop Tablet Phone Submit Reply 0
TomAiello 26 #9 March 8, 2005 QuoteGlaser Safety Slugs I agree. If you're using a handgun for home defense, Glaser rounds are a great choice because they are unlikely to make it out of the house and into an innocent bystander, but they'll still have plenty of takedown capacity when they are on target. Given a wider choice, I think I'd have to go with the shotgun folks, though. It's easier to hit things, if you are short on training. Of course, if you are long on training, use whatever you're best trained with.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #10 March 8, 2005 Quotethis all sounds so cool....guy coming into your home in the middle of the early AM, your eyes are so blurry, it is dark, you find your pistol, and all you have to do is find the moving silhouette and shoot, provided it is not your wife... "Cheyenne Ray, 44, was alerted by his girlfriend, Tanya Rivera, 31, that she heard a noise at the front door about 1:30 a.m. Ray looked through the glass storm door and saw a hand holding a 9-mm pistol strike the glass. Ray went into the kitchen, got a shotgun, and fired one shot at the door. The burglar dropped the gun and ran off." http://www.newsday.com/mynews/ny-liburg064167017mar06,0,252717.story "Georgia Belle Sullivan says she was sleeping before dawn yesterday when her dogs' barking woke her up. She retrieved her gun, then saw a shadow move behind a line of chairs. She told authorities that's when a man lunged at her. She fired once at close range, hitting 44-year-old Arthur Sanford. Sanford had a string of arrests and served time in a state prison for armed robbery. All the doors and windows to the home were locked, but Sanford entered the home through a firewood storage area. Sanford also cut the phone lines outside the house and had taped a sweat shirt to his head as a makeshift mask." http://www.klfy.com/Global/story.asp?S=2961624 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #11 March 8, 2005 QuoteI'd go with hollow points. Hollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... Make sure you do a lot of target practice with your chosen load to ensure reliability. Don't just buy them and assume they'll work. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #12 March 8, 2005 Quote think I'd have to go with the shotgun folks, though. It's easier to hit things, if you are short on training. The spread of shot in typical home defense ranges of 20 feet or less is minimal, and doesn't really significantly increase your odds of hitting your target. There are other good reasons for using a shotgun, but I don't think that this is one of them. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #13 March 8, 2005 I was more thinking that it's easier to hit things with a shoulder gun than a handgun (rather than the shot spread thing).-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
DexterBase 1 #14 March 8, 2005 I'm pretty damn surgical with handguns. I know without even using the sights I can put 80% of rounds on a 3x5 index card at distances equal to anywhere inside my apartment. That's squeezing them off fairly quickly too. I've done some shooting in combat situations too. That part I'm not worried about. What I'm referring to is what rounds are the most effective for personal defense. More specifically, what rounds cause the most damage (largest wound channel, highest energy transferred to the target, etc.) in a personal defense application. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
warpedskydiver 0 #15 March 8, 2005 The best Idea is either a shotgun with 00 pellets or a 5.56x45mm weapon i.e. a short barreled M4 or similar it excels far past any pistol ammo in CQC situations and doesnt overpenetrate on walls etc. especially while using soft point or ballistic tipped ammo. If you have any questions I can supply the DoD study that was done and is currently used in the military and law enforcement SWAT today Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #16 March 8, 2005 Interesting bit on Glasier rounds here. It mostly contradicts my opinions (expressed previously) and I'll freely admit that the writer appears more expert than myself (as I'm not expert on weapons at all). There's also a thread on personal defense ammo here. Google is always an interesting toy...-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #17 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'd go with hollow points. Hollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... Make sure you do a lot of target practice with your chosen load to ensure reliability. Don't just buy them and assume they'll work. I've never heard this before. I suppose it could be true though. I've tried several brands of hollow points through my own automatic and they all seem to work fine. Not all bullets are shaped the same, nor have the same jacket, and all these factors could cause problems in an automatic. Even some solid bullets don't feed as well as others and testing them yourself in your own firearm is a smart decision. I have one older automatic that jams if it's not perfectly clean and oiled, and it's very finicky about what ammo feeds well in it. (It needs some work.) I've seen a lot of autos that jam in cold weather. But cold weather is not a factor in a home defense situation. So I agree, A person needs to test his weapon with different loads and under different conditions, to find what works best...Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 26 #18 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteI'd go with hollow points. Hollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... John, would you recommend a revolver for home defense? Or, more completely, what would/do you use in this role?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #19 March 8, 2005 QuoteI was more thinking that it's easier to hit things with a shoulder gun than a handgun (rather than the shot spread thing). I agree with that, and this is one of those "other reasons" to which I alluded. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
JohnRich 4 #20 March 8, 2005 QuoteQuoteHollow points don't feed reliably in some handguns. And if you can't shoot the gun, it's worthless for self defense... John, would you recommend a revolver for home defense? Or, more completely, what would/do you use in this role? My comment did apply to semi-auto pistols only. Revolvers wouldn't have that problem, and are considered by many to be more reliable. But then you are also limited to just six rounds (usually), whereas a semi-auto can have up to 15 or so. Revolvers are simple point and shoot tools and don't require elaborate knowledge of malfunction-clearing procedures. I keep a .45 pistol handy for myself. But what is best for each person is a highly personal choice, determined by a number of factors. The .45 is just what I like and practice with the most, so that's what works for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
craddock 0 #21 March 9, 2005 I am playing with my new 1911 right now. I can't wait to shoot it. All I have is cheap ball ammo right now, but can you give me a good load have around for it. Of course I would shoot it first. That spot isn't bad at all, the winds were strong and that was the issue! It was just on the downwind side. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
gmanpilot 0 #22 March 9, 2005 QuoteThe best Idea is either a shotgun From a tactical and self defense standpoint, I'm not a fan of scatter guns, especially if anyone else is living with you. It can get crowded indoors where shot placement trumps just about everything else. As far as ammo...Speer Gold Dot is very good...there are maany others._________________________________________ -There's always free cheese in a mouse trap. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikieB 0 #23 March 9, 2005 dexter. id go with the speer gold dot it has the best ballistics, penetration and expansion of any of the carry ammo I have seen. Its what i carry in my glock 30 and my 19 same with everyone I know. its very trustworthyconfucious say: he who stands on top of toilet gets high on pot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikieB 0 #24 March 9, 2005 by the way i think a lot of the colorado b team and c team guys are planning on going to the bridge soon, talk to peterconfucious say: he who stands on top of toilet gets high on pot. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
steve1 5 #25 March 9, 2005 Quote[ The spread of shot in typical home defense ranges of 20 feet or less is minimal, and doesn't really significantly increase your odds of hitting your target. There are other good reasons for using a shotgun, but I don't think that this is one of them. This is a good point that needs to be discussed. A lot of people don't realize that at point blank range a shotgun pattern isn't much bigger than the bore of the barrel. This is something a person needs to test using probably with an improved cylinder choke if you plan on shooting very close. Buckshot won't pattern as well as a round that has more BB's, so this is another thing to test out. Beyond 20 ft. there is a very definite pattern to work with though, and this can help greatly in hitting you target. I don't shoot a pistol much. If a person has a lot of skill with one, maybe that is the weapon to choose. I shoot a shotgun quite a bit. I have a lot of confidence in shooting one even if most of my practice is shooting birds. I have a short barrel that I use for turkey hunting and home defense. I just think I'd be better able to hit a bad guy with the first shot, when conditions are far from ideal.....For example when your heart is beating a hundred miles per hour, when a bad guy is shooting back, or it is pitch black out, or your target may be moving. I'd just feel a lot more confident with a shotgun. For others it may be a pistol. I've seen some true life fire fights on TV where the bad guy is shooting it out with police. Some times they are only a car length apart. Often times bullets are flying everywhere. Even the trained professionals are often missing a lot of shots in these scenarios. A shotgun my be slower to draw and fire, but it would be more deadly in my hands than a pistol. Maybe if I shot a pistol more I might feel different....Steve1 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
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