Landing Pattern Police

[yardhippie 0]

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I hate the" follow the first guy rule" . Fuck that. I was taught to land in the wind and thats the way I will land. Its a bad rule.

You say that like youre not willing to change just because you were taught something. Thats precisely the attitude we don't need. Theres no way that any one rule is THE rule. We have to work together and educate each other. Not all DZ's have the luxury of a decent landing area that allows for landing into the prevolent winds.

Landing into the winds at our dz could put you above the the runway at less than 500 feet or above powerlines and/or a hangar.

The landing pattern for the main landing area is hangar on the left or hangar on the right. If you want to land "into the wind" land somewhere else. Those are the posted rules.

Every DZ will pose its on set of delimmas. The DZO, the S&TA, and other significant figures have to decide on a plan, and stick with it for a given operation. There have to be rules and consequences. With that, not knowing the rules should be just as large as infraction as breaking the rules. Just as with laws, stupidity is not an excuse. Our sport does not allow for excuses.

Plese, everyone, be safe.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[dharma1976 0]

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But the first guy down is usually "some guy" who is hot dogging it and doesn't care which way he lands or wants to do a downwinder. The first guy can be an idiot so everyone else must follow. Not me, I will land to the side but Im going to land in the wind and tell u to go fuck yourself if you have something to say because you should be talking to "that guy".

Dude that is not how we operate at the ranch and you know that...

here is how we operate...

a. we talk about landing direction at the loading area so that we have open communication

that way we dont have the ranch landing direction which looks like a chaos symbol and gets people hurt or killed....

I can think of incidents that have been created due to people landing opposites due to the "I land into the wind and that is that" attitude that could kill people.

would you rather land downwind or perhaps kill someone.

remember it is not yoru landing area it is everyones try to think of the greater good and other people that is what this whole debate right now is really about...

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[matthewcline 0]

Would not landing into the wind be "the greater good" for the majority of the skydivers on a fun load?

IMO-Down winders should be separate of the "Normal" landing pattern as well as swoopers doing 270's etc.

If it means the fun jumpers land in the student area fine, if the fun jumpers are hurt (ego that is) by the DZ's rules go else where.

Matt

An Instructors first concern is student safety.
So, start being safe, first!!!

[yardhippie 0]

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Would not landing into the wind be "the greater good" for the majority of the skydivers on a fun load?

Maybe at some DZs, but what if "landing into the wind created a hazard such as flying over an active runway, or the old rule of "dont fly over anything you dont want to land ot"

I just dont belive that their can be and end-all be-all rule for a landing patter. Suggested guidelines. Of course. Each Dz, IMHO, must make its own plan and rules, then stick with it.

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IMO-Down winders should be separate of the "Normal" landing pattern as well as swoopers doing 270's etc.

Again I find that there might be exceptions to this. Such as: all swoopers landing in the designated swoop area agree that downwinding is the pattern. Now if that interferes with the pattern of an alternate patter, it wont work.
Other wise, we should never had canopies flying toward each other.

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If it means the fun jumpers land in the student area fine, if the fun jumpers are hurt (ego that is) by the DZ's rules go else where.

Matt

My feelings exactly. We have to put the word out that repeted voluntary infractions will not be tolerated.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Maybe at some DZs, but what if "landing into the wind created a hazard such as flying over an active runway, or the old rule of "dont fly over anything you dont want to land ot"

Ummm... then who ever chose that as the landing area chose poorly... moving the landing area may be a better solution rather then accepting downwind landings under some conditions (wind directions) as a dubious "solution" to not flying over obsitcals short final... but that would probably mean landing elsewhere and having to take that long, un-cool, walk back to the landing area and/or not being close to where the students, whuffos & visitors hang-out so one could wow them with cool landings.

[rehmwa 2]

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but that would probably mean landing elsewhere and having to take that long, un-cool, walk back to the landing area

I like this, you say stuff that I do

only with more pizzazzz

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[dharma1976 0]

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Would not landing into the wind be "the greater good" for the majority of the skydivers on a fun load?

IMO-Down winders should be separate of the "Normal" landing pattern as well as swoopers doing 270's etc.

If it means the fun jumpers land in the student area fine, if the fun jumpers are hurt (ego that is) by the DZ's rules go else where.

Matt

Dude totally....

but also landing in the same direction is for the greater good as well as if one person decides to err away from the agreed landing direction for that load and hits someone who was following agreed direction it causes other problems....

on the 270 thing

from the SIM

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Advanced maneuvers in a common landing area should be attempted only by highly experienced canopy pilots who must exercise restraint, judgment, and extreme caution.

That means that we need to be willing not to swoop...

I bailed out of the turn I wanted to do the other day for the turn that was safe...if everythign is not right I will bail down a step or three...I will even own up to the fact that there are loads that I ***GASP*** land straight in cause things arent right in the traffic for me to do my thang...and unlike others...guess what...I am not going to get angry about it....

WE are a collective group that needs to look out for each other...all that seems to be going on since these two incidents is a bunch of finger pointing and name calling...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[ianmdrennan 2]

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Ummm... then who ever chose that as the landing area chose poorly... moving the landing area may be a better solution rather then accepting downwind landings under some conditions (wind directions) rather then flying over obsitcals short final...

Ummm, incorrect.

There are no alternatives at the DZ he is talking about. It's a long dz/airport but it's not very wide.

The WORST you will have to face there is a cross wind landing and even then those are rare at best.

The winds don't blow that way predominately. Our first jumpers do just fine in those conditions.....no reason for anyone else to have an issue with them.

Blues,
Ian

Performance Designs Factory Team

[recovercrachead 0]

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But the first guy down is usually "some guy" who is hot dogging it and doesn't care which way he lands or wants to do a downwinder. The first guy can be an idiot so everyone else must follow. Not me, I will land to the side but Im going to land in the wind and tell u to go fuck yourself if you have something to say because you should be talking to "that guy".

Dude that is not how we operate at the ranch and you know that...

here is how we operate...

a. we talk about landing direction at the loading area so that we have open communication

that way we dont have the ranch landing direction which looks like a chaos symbol and gets people hurt or killed....

I can think of incidents that have been created due to people landing opposites due to the "I land into the wind and that is that" attitude that could kill people.

would you rather land downwind or perhaps kill someone.

remember it is not yoru landing area it is everyones try to think of the greater good and other people that is what this whole debate right now is really about...

Dave

Yes there has been an increase of communication of the loading area. Does it still happen Yes. I have been jumping there for 10 years. The open communication has increase because of the new disciplines of skydiving. I think Policing at the ranch is hard because of a bunch of variables and the no rule rule.
But...
Back on topic: That Rule is not the answer to the problem and it will cause a problem. We will have more problems with that rule than the problem we have.
Communication,Communication,Communication.
That is the only answer. Manifest can help out alot. Most big DZ have a loud speaker, Use it every hour. People come out to the loading area late so we cant wait till we just get out to the plane to talk about the way where going to land. We should start talking about it once we get out of our car and until we go to sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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Ummm... then who ever chose that as the landing area chose poorly... moving the landing area may be a better solution rather then accepting downwind landings under some conditions (wind directions) rather then flying over obsitcals short final...

Ummm, incorrect.

There are no alternatives at the DZ he is talking about. It's a long dz/airport but it's not very wide.

The WORST you will have to face there is a cross wind landing and even then those are rare at best.

The winds don't blow that way predominately. Our first jumpers do just fine in those conditions.....no reason for anyone else to have an issue with them.

Blues,
Ian

Ian, that's just plain DUMB, in my opinion... having to do a downwind or crosswind landing because the locaiton is such a poor choice for a drop zone and/or so poorly laid-out of a drop zone, that in certain wind conditions (direction) there is no other alternative. I realize I'm calling somebody's baby "ugly" and I'll get the requisite smoking for it, but I calls em as I sees em... y'all disagree, I'm okay with that.

What is the name & location of this DZ so I can put it on my list of "never jump there"... PM me if you don't want to post the name of the DZ in an open forum.

Same thing, different words, "If you accpet shit, you get shit"... "If you accept crapy landing areas, you'll get crapy landing areas."

[recovercrachead 0]

I'm not saying that I will land into the wind in the middle of the DZ doing any type of turn while most of the rest of the load saw the first idiot down land downwind so they will follow but I will take the edge and land into the wind safely.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[yardhippie 0]

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Maybe at some DZs, but what if "landing into the wind created a hazard such as flying over an active runway, or the old rule of "dont fly over anything you dont want to land ot"

Ummm... then who ever chose that as the landing area chose poorly... moving the landing area may be a better solution rather then accepting downwind landings under some conditions (wind directions) rather then flying over obsitcals short final... but that would probably mean landing elsewhere and having to take that long, un-cool, walk back to the landing area and/or not being close to where the students, whuffos & visitors hang-out so one could wow them with cool landings.

Well I wasnt suggesting that downwind was the only choice. If you have a LZ that has a prescribed landing direction of N or S, primairily because thats what the prevailing winds do. then you have runways, taxiways, etc that follow those prevailing wind leaving you with plenty of real estate for landing areas. so you get a day where the wind is out of the west. land crosswind prefably into a quartering headwind. B/c lets face it, the wind is never constant, and rarely is a direct cross. IMHO: if youre there that day, dont want to land crosswind in the pre-determined direction, dont jump.

For our DZ this is the case for the main landing area, BUT we have an alternate landing area that is well suited to "into the wind" landings, if one desires.

As far as the "long un-cool walk" I dont care. i'll land safe before I'll land on.

Goddam dirty hippies piss me off! ~GFD
"What do I get for closing your rig?" ~ me
"Anything you want." ~ female skydiver
Mohoso Rodriguez #865

[dharma1976 0]

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Yes there has been an increase of communication of the loading area. Does it still happen Yes. I have been jumping there for 10 years. The open communication has increase because of the new disciplines of skydiving. I think Policing at the ranch is hard because of a bunch of variables and the no rule rule.
But...
Back on topic: That Rule is not the answer to the problem and it will cause a problem. We will have more problems with that rule than the problem we have.
Communication,Communication,Communication.
That is the only answer. Manifest can help out alot. Most big DZ have a loud speaker, Use it every hour. People come out to the loading area late so we cant wait till we just get out to the plane to talk about the way where going to land. We should start talking about it once we get out of our car and until we go to sleep!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

you know if you know me that I am the guy talking that up at the loading area...as well as figuring out wingloading and vertical separation issues in my head by eying everyone at the ranch loading zones rig to assertain the size of canopy...

You be around the ranch this weekend?

I am thinking sunday myself dependant on weather...

Cheers

Dave

http://www.skyjunky.com

CSpenceFLY - I can't believe the number of people willing to bet their life on someone else doing the right thing.

[jshatzkin 0]

I am not saying that landing into the wind is bad. It should be priority over other directions only when other safety measures are not compromised. I think that sometimes though, people become so fixated at landing into the wind that they misjudge and a lot of other bad stuff can happen quickly.

Keith, from SDC, who had a nasty landing accident last August just posted today on his update in The Bonfire and I took this quote straight from his post for learning:

"Actually, it was a rather tame turn to get back into the wind, but not as flat as it should have been, that I executed a little lower than I should have. In retrospect, I should've just landed downwind."

Jen

[ZigZagMarquis 8]

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"Actually, it was a rather tame turn to get back into the wind, but not as flat as it should have been, that I executed a little lower than I should have. In retrospect, I should've just landed downwind."

True enough... and I'm not picking on your friend and I hope he recovers fully and quickly... but couldn't you also say that if he had done better up high reading the wind-direction and setting up his pattern so that he was into the wind short final and wasn't in the position to make that mistake of turning low trying (too late) to get on the wind-line would have been "best"?

[jshatzkin 0]

I don't want to fully speak for what transpired in his case, and it may not be that simple. If you check the post in The Bonfire he describes what happened as best as he remembers. But I agree, not just setting the pattern up high, but setting it prior to the jump and re-evaluating up high. I totally agree. I think my point is that some people become so fixated on landing into the wind that when things start to go wrong, they are still fixated on landing into the wind, rather than doing a safer downwind or crosswind landing.

Jen

[recovercrachead 0]

I think we are lossing it here and that is coming from me which is scarey. Landing safely is what we all agree on I think. But follow the leader is a suide rule and will only be part of the problem we have.

Track high, Pull LOW!!!

[popsjumper 2]

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...... but how many DZs / DZOs / S&TAs out there actively enforce such regs?

... or is it all just lip service and the problems continue??

Very few admit to and they'll say, "We do!" but go there and you will see it all the time - no enforcement. And boogies are the worst of the lot.


One notable exception is RoamingDZ at Dublin when it was announced by the organizer that the LZ patterns and rules will be followed or he will shut the place down.

My reality and yours are quite different.
I think we're all Bozos on this bus.
Falcon5232, SCS8170, SCSA353, POPS9398, DS239

[bofh 0]

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I think we are lossing it here and that is coming from me which is scarey. Landing safely is what we all agree on I think. But follow the leader is a suide rule and will only be part of the problem we have.

In what way is it a suicide rule? To me it is about doing the best thing of a bad situation.

I'm sure it has happened, but I've not heard of anyone dying because of a downwind landing. I have heard of plenty who have died after colliding, died after noticing too low that they were flying downwind and did a 180 degree turn into the ground to correct this. I've seen a student bounce 2m up in the air after starting to do a 180 degree turn with his huge manta after noticing that he was going downwind (amazingly he got away without any injury). I've talked to people that landed downwind in 15m/s, did PLFs and got away without any injury (they learned quite a lot from it).

I really hate it when the first guy flies down to his setup height, does a left hand 270 and then all of a suddon the rest of the lift has to readjust their landing pattern, but at least they start heigh enough for people to be able to readjust their landing pattern rather safely and then perform a safe downwind landing, possibly having to perform a PLF at the end. I also fully support verbal abuses of the first guy landing.

There is only one thing that is worse (except accidents of course) and that is when someone then decides that downwind landings are so scary and they should always land into the wind. Not only are they not flying the same pattern as everyone else (causing some others to follow and they will have to perform a much later pattern change with the usual risk of people doing low turns into the ground or missing some other canopy and colliding), but all of a suddon there are people landing towards each other, canopies brushing and there is a high risk that some serious accident will happen. I take a broken arm any day before I collide face first into someone else which can be a very real result when people don't all land in the same direction.

If I had to ground only one of them, it wouldn't be the first guy landing.