crozby 0 #26 January 9, 2005 QuoteThe classic example is the one I stated above (is it morally justified to invade a foreign nation to prevent them perpetrating genocide upon their own people?), but there are others. What does that have to do with Iraq? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,467 #27 January 9, 2005 >The rest of your bullshit aside . . . Your one warning. If you cannot avoid personal attacks, then do not post here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
crozby 0 #28 January 9, 2005 QuoteThe U.S. has been admitting mistakes and voluntarily paying compensation to victims of collateral damage since Afghanistan. To be totally accurate, the US denies every mistake until journalists provide overwhelming evidence that there was a fuckup. Only then might there be an admission and subsequent compensation. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #29 January 9, 2005 1939: March 15/16 - Nazis take Czechoslovakia; Sept 1, Nazis invade Poland; Sept 5, United States proclaims neutrality. 1940: April 9 - Nazis invade Denmark and Norway; May 10 - Nazis invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands; Oct 7 - German troops enter Romania. 1941: Feb 14 - First units of German Afrika Korps arrive in North Africa; April 6 - Nazis invade Greece and Yugoslavia; June 22: - Germany attacks Soviet Union.; Dec 11 - Germany declares war on the United States. Clearly, Germany was a bona fide agressor by the time the US entered the war. Suffice it to point out that Germany actually declared war on the US, not the other way 'round. Now, was the US justified going after Iraq in 1991 after that country had invaded Kuwait? Absolutely, especially as the Kuwaitis had asked for assistance. Would an invasion of Iraq in 1990 (or Germany in 1939) been justified, if both countries had just minded their own business and limited creating havoc to their own societies and within their own borders? Certainly not! QuoteQuoteHence it all boils down to politics...and as stated repeatedly, politics does not justify the taking of human life. Stating something repeatedly doesn't make it right, but your argument might gain validity if you actually addressed the question you were confronted with: Should we not have invaded Germany in WWII? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #30 January 9, 2005 The country of Israel has for years ignored every UN resolution on the books. It's treatment of Arabs and Palestinians is at times akin to genocide. Now there you have a worthy cause to right the world of wrong. Similarly the on-going civil war in Sudan. Why don't the US ship 100,000 troops to subdue the fighting factions? If Israel or Sudan had large oil reserves, the White House (w/ Bush and Halliburton Cheney), might be more interested in liberating those countries. Other than that, I do not feel that any single country has the moral authority to judge other societies or to interfere by force. Only the UN has that authority...and you certainly are aware of the position of the world body on the US aggression against Iraq. QuoteQuotePolitics never justifies the taking of human life. Period. Now, if you personally or your country is under attack, that's a whole different ballgame. Arguably the US was not under attack or experiencing an imminent threat of being attacked by Iraq. What if it isn't you, personally, or your country that is under attack? The classic example is the one I stated above (is it morally justified to invade a foreign nation to prevent them perpetrating genocide upon their own people?), but there are others. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mikkey 0 #31 January 9, 2005 The key problem is that it is actually difficult not to appear like a hostile occupying force, which again wins the insurgents popular support. Especially if you behave heavy handed. Here are 2 examples from todays media: http://www.theage.com.au/news/Iraq/Officer-jailed-for-drowning-Iraqi/2005/01/09/1105205976228.html Quote A US platoon sergeant who ordered his soldiers to throw Iraqis into the Tigris River has been sentenced to six months in military prison, but he will not be discharged. Sergeant Tracy Perkins admitted that he ordered his soldiers to throw two men into the river in Samarra in January 2004. Prosecutors say Zaidoun Hassoun, 19, drowned, and his cousin Marwan Hassoun climbed out of the river. Marwan Hassoun testified that he tried to save his cousin by grabbing his hand, but the powerful current swept him away. The body was found in the river nearly two weeks later. Perkins, 33, was convicted of two counts of aggravated assault, assault consummated by battery, and obstruction of justice. He was acquitted of involuntary manslaughter and making a false statement. Prosecutors had recommended five years in prison and a dishonourable or bad-conduct discharge. and http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4159521.stm QuoteUS soldiers mistakenly shot dead two Iraqi policemen and two civilians after an attack on their convoy, the Iraqi interior ministry reports. The incident happened south of Baghdad on Saturday just hours after a US bombing error left at least five dead near the northern city of Mosul. An Australian officer I met who had been serving in Baghdad told me before Christmas that many coalition soldiers think the US is acting too heavy handed. Trying to dismiss the insurgency as "terrorists" and under estimating its popular support will only lead to further problems.--------------------------------------------------------- When people look like ants - pull. When ants look like people - pray. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #32 January 9, 2005 QuoteClearly, Germany was a bona fide agressor by the time the US entered the war. Suffice it to point out that Germany actually declared war on the US, not the other way 'round. Yea, it sucked having those German troops charging up the shores of Long Island and dropping out of planes into D.C., which by your standard woul'dve been necessary before we got involved. Avoid the question you were asked all you want, but sometimes involving yourself in an external affair is the right thing to do. I hope i'ts not you that walks by next time I'm dying in the street. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #33 January 9, 2005 While I can rationally argue and disprove your point, I won't. After all, posting in this forum is not about convincing anyone that my position is right. Instead, it is about exposing everyone to a different line of thought. At least in my books... Post Scriptum: Of course, the US is currently trying to prove in Iraq that their "point" is the ONLY valid one. See the fallacy with this? Probably not. QuoteQuoteClearly, Germany was a bona fide agressor by the time the US entered the war. Suffice it to point out that Germany actually declared war on the US, not the other way 'round. Yea, it sucked having those German troops charging up the shores of Long Island and dropping out of planes into D.C., which by your standard woul'dve been necessary before we got involved. Avoid the question you were asked all you want, but sometimes involving yourself in an external affair is the right thing to do. I hope i'ts not you that walks by next time I'm dying in the street. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #34 January 9, 2005 QuoteQuoteThe classic example is the one I stated above (is it morally justified to invade a foreign nation to prevent them perpetrating genocide upon their own people?), but there are others. What does that have to do with Iraq? Nothing at all. I was asking about a particular political philosophy (that nothing justifies lifetaking) expressed above. I had not meant the inquiry to reference the current conflict in Iraq, and was providing historical or potentially non-specific examples to ask questions.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #35 January 9, 2005 QuoteSimilarly the on-going civil war in Sudan. Why don't the US ship 100,000 troops to subdue the fighting factions? Huh? So, you do or do not want intervention? I'm really trying to ask about your philosophy, not about specific world events of the day. Specifically, you said that taking of human life cannot be justified by politics. My question is at what point you draw the line and say that it is justified? Never? Even if taking the life of an aggressor is the only way to stop them taking the life of others? Can you elaborate on your views a little? Without reference to any specific conflict would be great for me.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
bodypilot90 0 #36 January 10, 2005 QuoteIn response to that, I rolled across the berm into Iraq on the 26th of April 2003. We were widely welcomed into Iraq by the majority of the population there. In fact the shia' were celebrating some muslim holy day that they hadn't been able to in 15 or 20 years since Saddam had outlawed it because he is a Sunni. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wasn't aware; that's the first I've heard of anything like that. I see pictures and reports of demonstrations against US, though, so I am sure that there, like here, there are many differing opinions. you never would on NPR or CNN. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #37 January 10, 2005 From an earlier post of mine. Hope that this will elucidate: "Other than that, I do not feel that any single country has the moral authority to judge other societies or to interfere by force. Only the UN has that authority...and you certainly are aware of the position of the world body on the US aggression against Iraq." Applies to interference in Sudan also, where the UN has repeatedly called for action to no avail. Quote So, you do or do not want intervention? I'm really trying to ask about your philosophy, not about specific world events of the day. Can you elaborate on your views a little? Without reference to any specific conflict would be great for me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #38 January 10, 2005 Quoteyou never would on NPR or CNN While NPR is my favorite, http://news.google.com is my primary news source. It would have made it. It covers most all the news spectrum, from Rense to National Review.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #39 January 10, 2005 QuoteApplies to interference in Sudan also, where the UN has repeatedly called for action to no avail. I agree. Nobody wants the police at their house unless they've been called.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #40 January 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteApplies to interference in Sudan also, where the UN has repeatedly called for action to no avail. I agree. Nobody wants the police at their house unless they've been called. Sure, but when they're abusing their kids, it's probably better if the cops show, even if the parents haven't called.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #41 January 10, 2005 Now that statement assumes that every nation considers themselves as kids, with the US being parents. I'd argue that 6B people on this earth will disagree. Also shows what's wrong with the US attitude (no personal pun intended, of course). QuoteQuoteQuoteApplies to interference in Sudan also, where the UN has repeatedly called for action to no avail. I agree. Nobody wants the police at their house unless they've been called. Sure, but when they're abusing their kids, it's probably better if the cops show, even if the parents haven't called. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #42 January 10, 2005 QuoteNow that statement assumes that every nation considers themselves as kids, with the US being parents. I'd argue that 6B people on this earth will disagree. I was more thinking of the minorities within the country as "kids" with the government of that country as the "parents". I didn't say who the "police" were, in this extended metaphor.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #43 January 10, 2005 QuoteSure, but when they're abusing their kids, it's probably better if the cops show, even if the parents haven't called. In such cases, the cops usually show because the kids asked someone for help.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #44 January 10, 2005 QuoteQuoteSure, but when they're abusing their kids, it's probably better if the cops show, even if the parents haven't called. In such cases, the cops usually show because the kids asked someone for help. So, if the kids asked you for help, would you call the cops?-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #45 January 10, 2005 Quote So, if the kids asked you for help, would you call the cops? You mean like Sudan? yeah. Or in Iraq, after Desert Storm when there was a popular uprising against SH, and they asked for our help? Yeah. Iraq today? No, the kids didn't ask for help. BTW, I supported putting troops on the ground in Kosovo.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #46 January 10, 2005 QuoteQuote So, if the kids asked you for help, would you call the cops? You mean like Sudan? Actually, I was thinking in pretty generic terms. I'm more interested in the general philosophy. If I had to pick a real world example, I'd use Auschwitz. Those "kids" didn't really rise up or anything, but I still think the cops needed to show up to stop the abuse.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #47 January 10, 2005 QuoteIf I had to pick a real world example, I'd use Auschwitz. Those "kids" didn't really rise up or anything, but I still think the cops needed to show up to stop the abuse. Yes, but the problem started before the concentration camps. And the League of Nations had even less authority than does the UN. Hardly a fair comparison to todays situations, where we ignore countries asking for help, but forcefully "help" countries that did not ask.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
TomAiello 25 #48 January 10, 2005 QuoteHardly a fair comparison to todays situations, where we ignore countries asking for help, but forcefully "help" countries that did not ask. Keep in mind that I have repeatedly said I am asking about the philosophy, not current events. I have made no attempt to compare any of this to today's situations.-- Tom Aiello [email protected] SnakeRiverBASE.com Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #49 January 10, 2005 QuoteKeep in mind that I have repeatedly said I am asking about the philosophy, not current events. I have made no attempt to compare any of this to today's situations. Fair enough. I am very Taoist in my philosophy towards conflict. I have read The Art of War many times. I have never been fond of authority, and have always thought for myself, instead of accepting pre-packaged information. So I am not likely to support a war without believing in the cause. In that sense, I am a consciencous objector. I am, however, not a pacifist. If I deem something worthy of fighting for, then I will fight for it, or, more realistically as I get older, I will support it in anyway I can. But, as Sun Tzu said, violence is seldom the best way to resolve conflict. But, when it is necessary, win quickly and decisively. No nation ever benefited from prolonged conflict.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tantalum 0 #50 January 10, 2005 Tom: please keep in mind that I am just the regular guy, next door. I don't have a fancy education or degree. Can I offer you the Unified Theory of Political Everything? No! But I can offer you my view of the world which includes not wanting to have my bigger and beafier neighbour invade my home, kill my wife and children, and then proclaim that it was all a mistake. While at the same time enjoying the barrel of oil that they found in my backyard. Is that a philosophy? Probably not. Now, let me hear about yours... QuoteQuoteHardly a fair comparison to todays situations, where we ignore countries asking for help, but forcefully "help" countries that did not ask. Keep in mind that I have repeatedly said I am asking about the philosophy, not current events. I have made no attempt to compare any of this to today's situations. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
