br0k3n 0 #51 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteDoes it have to be Christianity, or will any religion be expectable??? It's all about Jesus. QuoteOk finally, what happens when they ask you for evidence? Then your in trouble….. Why would I be in trouble? ermmmm well ermmmm there isnt any... thats why its called "blind faith".......----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #52 December 22, 2004 Quoteermmmm well ermmmm there isnt any... thats why its called "blind faith"....... I guess it all depends on what you qualify as evidence. If you reject what is there, I guess I can see why you'd call it all "blind faith." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #53 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteermmmm well ermmmm there isnt any... thats why its called "blind faith"....... I guess it all depends on what you qualify as evidence. If you reject what is there, I guess I can see why you'd call it all "blind faith." Well, what is there???? Have you discovered the Holy Grail, or the Arc of the covenant? And not told anyone?----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #54 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteermmmm well ermmmm there isnt any... thats why its called "blind faith"....... I guess it all depends on what you qualify as evidence. If you reject what is there, I guess I can see why you'd call it all "blind faith." For me evidence is... Something that is real, something I can see with my own eyes. Something that has been proven to be authentic beyond all doubt (that rules out the Turin shroud, so called miracles and all weaping statues)----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #55 December 22, 2004 QuoteWell, what is there???? there is nothing to reject.... Well...I say primarily the many books of the Christian Bible outlining eye-witness testimony of the miracles that took place and prophesy foretold. You'll then say that's not historically or textually accurate. We've been through all of this in great detail before. I'd recommend searching for threads such as "Religious Based Intolerance", "The Bible", and "Arguments for (or against) the existence of God." I believe that the preponderance of the evidence leads to accuracy more so than inaccuracy and reason to believe rather than disbelieve. That's just me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #56 December 22, 2004 Quote It's all about Jesus. First, I think it is commendable that you've been this open about such a personal subject. This does bring to mind a question. How would you feel if your son accepted Christ as his Savior, but on significantly different terms than you have, for example, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Jehovahs Witness, or Church of Latter Day Saints, or Rastafari or [insert any other denomination/sect/cult] of Christianity? Jesus says: "I am the light which is on them all. I am the All, and the All has gone out from me and the All has come back to me. Cleave the wood: I am there; lift the stone and thou shalt find me there!" --Gospel of Saint Thomas Saying 77Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #57 December 22, 2004 QuoteQuoteWell, what is there???? there is nothing to reject.... Well...I say primarily the many books of the Christian Bible outlining eye-witness testimony of the miracles that took place and prophesy foretold. You'll then say that's not historically or textually accurate. We've been through all of this in great detail before. I'd recommend searching for threads such as "Religious Based Intolerance", "The Bible", and "Arguments for (or against) the existence of God." I believe that the preponderance of the evidence leads to accuracy more so than inaccuracy and reason to believe rather than disbelieve. That's just me. I agree I’m not interested in getting in some argument over historical or textual accuracy. All I want is proof, undeniable proof, and there is none… end of story….. If the Christian Gospel were really God's message to mankind, and if God really wanted us to accept it and believe it, then one must ask why God is not doing a better job of making it believable? If God is making it so difficult in order to test our faith - our willingness to believe it without evidence (cf. John 20:29) - then why give us any evidence at all… Why is there not a shred of archaeological evidence, why can we manage to find evidence from every period in time, yet none that show a man name Jesus existed. Ultimately, the Christian evidence is only circumstantial and hearsay. Such evidence can be disregarded in a court if there is any other natural, reasonable, possible explanation than the one which the party offering the circumstantial evidence proposes. And there is. With our knowledge of how religious movements begin and develop, how the human mind works, how urban legends begin and spread, how circumstances were in Jesus' time and place, one has no real difficulty in understanding how this Jewish teacher's life and death became the basis for a mystery religion quite unlike anything he foresaw----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #58 December 22, 2004 QuoteWell, what is there???? Have you discovered the Holy Grail, or the Arc of the covenant? And not told anyone? If they found those, would you then believe in God? How about if they located Noah’s Arc on top of Mount Ararat? Probably not, right? If, however, you lived in the time of Jesus, he told you that he was God, he performed miracles such as healing the blind, walking on water, and raising people from the dead, he foretold his own death, was tortured, crucified, stabbed with a spear to ensure death, buried in a Roman guarded tomb, rose from the dead three days later (as predicted by himself) to prove who he was, and ascended into heaven, would you believe it then? There are hundreds in the Bible who witnessed this. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #59 December 22, 2004 QuoteIf they found those, would you then believe in God? Yes, absolutley, without hesitation..... QuoteHow about if they located Noah’s Arc on top of Mount Ararat? Probably not, right? The story of Noah and the ability to build such an ark has well and truley been debunked by science, however if they found it, then yes i would believe .. Quote If, however, you lived in the time of Jesus, he told you that he was God, he performed miracles such as healing the blind, walking on water, and raising people from the dead, he foretold his own death, was tortured, crucified, stabbed with a spear to ensure death, buried in a Roman guarded tomb, rose from the dead three days later (as predicted by himself) to prove who he was, and ascended into heaven, would you believe it then? There are hundreds in the Bible who witnessed this. The bible is a "book" there is no way short or building a time machine to prove anything in it.. we may as well debate whether Harry Potter is a real magician.----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #60 December 22, 2004 Quote In Reply To In Reply To ermmmm well ermmmm there isnt any... thats why its called "blind faith"....... I guess it all depends on what you qualify as evidence. If you reject what is there, I guess I can see why you'd call it all "blind faith." For me evidence is... Something that is real, something I can see with my own eyes. Something that has been proven to be authentic beyond all doubt (that rules out the Turin shroud, so called miracles and all weaping statues) Even without proof, I think it is hard to discount metaphoric value of Christ and his teachings. The Bible has helped a great many people deal with life for many years. Not all of those people ar fundementalists that quote a few passages out of context to give you a distorted view of why your life is wrong. The vast majority are good, well meaning people. The Bible has done a lot of good for them, and I'm not about to discount the value of Christianity (the religion, not the church) due to lack of proof. Its done just fine this long without proof. Where's the proof of Shiva, or Yaveh or Buddha or Lao Tse, or Mohommed or, well, you get the idea. I don't believe any man really has a choice in the manner in which they find a higher power. We all find that in our own way. Different religions are like multiple paths up the same mountain. If you keep woorying about which path others take, you never get started up the mountain yourself.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #61 December 22, 2004 QuoteThis does bring to mind a question. How would you feel if your son accepted Christ as his Savior, but on significantly different terms than you have, for example, Eastern Orthodoxy, or Jehovahs Witness, or Church of Latter Day Saints, or Rastafari or [insert any other denomination/sect/cult] of Christianity? Within Christianity, a denomination is simply a roadmap to a destination. The denomination is significantly less important than the person (Jesus) of which it is about. As long as the map leads to the correct destination, it doesn’t really matter in the big scheme of things how you get there. There, however, has to be a belief in the deity of Jesus Christ, the Trinity, and his only means of salvation. Some of the cults you mentioned do not and, therefore, wouldn’t be a very prudent map to follow. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #62 December 22, 2004 Quote Some of the cults you mentioned do not I actually did not mention any cults, except generically. Even the Church of Latter Day Saints is considered a sect, if no a denomination.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #63 December 22, 2004 QuoteIf the Christian Gospel were really God's message to mankind, and if God really wanted us to accept it and believe it, then one must ask why God is not doing a better job of making it believable? If God is making it so difficult in order to test our faith - our willingness to believe it without evidence (cf. John 20:29) - then why give us any evidence at all… Nothing real is ever as simple as you’re trying to make it. QuoteWhy is there not a shred of archaeological evidence, why can we manage to find evidence from every period in time, yet none that show a man name Jesus existed. Other than all of the textual evidence (and I’m not just talking about the books of the Bible), here’s some: Jesus' Brother's "Bone Box" Closer to Being Authenticated Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #64 December 22, 2004 QuoteYes, absolutley, without hesitation..... Why would those physical objects from that time make it clear in your mind the existence of an incomprehensible creator of the universe? QuoteThe story of Noah and the ability to build such an ark has well and truley been debunked by science, however if they found it, then yes i would believe .. What makes you think that? I actually saw a Discovery Channel special where Marine shipbuilding specialists concluded the opposite. QuoteThe bible is a "book" there is no way short or building a time machine to prove anything in it.. we may as well debate whether Harry Potter is a real magician. Do you believe that the works of Shakespeare were actually written by Shakespeare? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #65 December 22, 2004 QuoteI actually did not mention any cults, except generically. Even the Church of Latter Day Saints is considered a sect, if no a denomination. The Church of Latter Day Saints professes to be a Christian group but they are not. Any group or "sect" who does not acknowledge the deity of Christ is not Christian. Their Watchtower society is in fact a false prophet. Jehovah's Witnesses in a Nutshell Is the Jehovah's Witness Religion Christian? It's almost 1:00am here boys. I'll pick this up again manana. Sleepy time... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
br0k3n 0 #66 December 22, 2004 QuoteWhy would those physical objects from that time make it clear in your mind the existence of an incomprehensible creator of the universe? Because they would begin to finally show that there might be some truth in the bible QuoteWhat makes you think that? I actually saw a Discovery Channel special where Marine shipbuilding specialists concluded the opposite. I think we all know that the discovery channel has not always shown programs that are based on facts. Im sure we have all seen documentarys on this channel that show, homepathic remedys to be real medicine, or other such psuedo science..... QuoteDo you believe that the works of Shakespeare were actually written by Shakespeare? I have no reason not to, we can prove the excistance of Shakespeare for a start, and beside no one is trying to tell me that Hamlet, or Romeo actually existed...----------------------------------------------------------- --+ There are 10 types of people in the world: Those who understand binary, and those who don't.. --+ Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #67 December 22, 2004 QuoteThe Church of Latter Day Saints professes to be a Christian group but they are not. Any group or "sect" who does not acknowledge the deity of Christ is not Christian. I'm having trouble understanding how Mormons are less Christian because the utilize a third book in conjunction with the KJV Bible. Rastatfari utilize the Bible as well, but I do not believe they worship Christ as a deity. I understand the trinity. The triad is near universal in religions, along with the duality. I don't understand the importance of the deity. Christianity as a religion didn't worship Christ as a deity until eary in the fourth century current era. I understand the significance, I just don't see why it is more important than the actual message of Christ. Unless I am miss understanding what you are trying to say.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Zenister 0 #68 December 22, 2004 it was Yule long before the world started the christ silliness... wouldnt even be this time of year except they wanted to convert the heathen hordes and its easier to adopt someone elses celebrations and make them your own..... the primary purpose in organized religion is control... and mostly political control...____________________________________ Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #69 December 22, 2004 QuoteBecause they would begin to finally show that there might be some truth in the bible But that wouldn’t eliminate all doubt. If Noah’s Ark was found, it might prove that there was a flood but not necessarily that God caused it. If the Ark of the Covenant was found, it might prove that the stone tablets containing the 10 Commandments existed but not necessarily that they were printed on them by God. My point is, for some, no amount of evidence will ever be quite enough. With the preponderance of evidence that is there, there is still and will always be an element of faith. Blind faith, however, would be faith without evidence. QuoteI think we all know that the discovery channel has not always shown programs that are based on facts. Im sure we have all seen documentarys on this channel that show, homepathic remedys to be real medicine, or other such psuedo science..... I’m not vouching for the reputation of The Discovery Channel. Have you got good evidence showing that it didn’t exist, wasn’t possible to build, wouldn’t float, or couldn’t hold all the animals it needed to? How about space.com ? Granted, it’s existence hasn’t archaeologically been proven yet but they’ve been reporting of satellite searches of Mount Ararat for the Ark. Somebody must think there’s justifiable reason to look for it. Not vouching for scientific reliability on this one either. It comes from a Christian site. But it’s interesting. Could Noah’s Ark really hold all the animals? QuoteI have no reason not to, we can prove the excistance of Shakespeare for a start, and beside no one is trying to tell me that Hamlet, or Romeo actually existed... Just like the New Testament, there are no originals of Shakespeare’s works. Shakespeare I believe he wrote it, though based on the reliable writings and testimony of others. I believe that the idea that Jesus or the disciples never really existed is very much a fringe notion not held by most serious historians. The evidence just doesn’t point in that direction. Anyway, just a thought. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #70 December 22, 2004 QuoteI'm having trouble understanding how Mormons are less Christian because the utilize a third book in conjunction with the KJV Bible. It’s ok to use supplemental material to aid in understanding the Bible. However, when that supplemental material teaches as gospel what’s not in the Bible, it ceases to be Christian and is considered a false prophet. Watchtower Society: False Prophet JW doctrine is not from the Bible alone Contradictions in JW literature I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophesy God will take away fro him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19 QuoteRastatfari utilize the Bible as well, but I do not believe they worship Christ as a deity. I understand the trinity. The triad is near universal in religions, along with the duality. I don't understand the importance of the deity. Christianity as a religion didn't worship Christ as a deity until eary in the fourth century current era. I understand the significance, I just don't see why it is more important than the actual message of Christ. Unless I am miss understanding what you are trying to say. The deity of Christ was recognized during his lifetime. It was part of the actual message of Christ and was vitally important. Without the deity of Christ, there is no forgiveness of sin. 1. If you really know Jesus, you know God as well. If you’ve seen Jesus, you’ve also seen God. Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.” John 14:6-7 2. The Holy Trinity “If you love me, you will obey what I command. And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever – the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him.” John 14:15-21 3. He claimed to have existed before Abraham. “I tell you the truth”, Jesus answered, “Before Abraham was born, I am!” John 8:58 4. He claimed that he was equal with the father. “Jesus said to them, “My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.” For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God. John 5:17 & 18 5. He claimed the ability to forgive sins. When Jesus saw their faith, he said to the paralytic, “Son, your sins are forgiven.” Now some teachers of the law were sitting there, thinking to themselves, “Why does this fellow talk like that?” He’s blaspheming! Who can forgive sins but God alone?” Mark 2:5 – 7 6. Forgiving sins is something only God can do. “I, even I, am he who blots out your transgressions, for my own sake, and remembers your sins no more.” Isaiah 43:25 7. John equated Jesus with God and states him to be creator of the universe. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning.” “Through him all thins were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:1 -3 8. The supremacy of Christ. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together. Colossians 1:15-17 9. Paul said that God was manifest in the flesh. Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. 1 Timothy 3:16 10. Baptism in the name of all three members of the trinity. “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations baptizing them in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” Mathew 28:19 11. 3rd member of the Holy Trinity: The Holy Spirit “All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you." John 14:25-26 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #71 December 22, 2004 QuoteI warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophesy God will take away fro him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19 Was there an asterisk with that giving a pass to the Council of Nicea? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #72 December 22, 2004 QuoteWas there an asterisk with that giving a pass to the Council of Nicea? The First Ecumenical Council held at Nicea in 325 was formed by Emperor Constantine in the 4th Century to deal with the false teachings of Arianism which denied the deity of Christ. Are you asserting that they altered the Bible in order to ensure the deity of Christ was mentioned? Early Trinitarian Quotes Nicene Creed Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #73 December 22, 2004 QuoteI warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophesy God will take away fro him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” Revelation 22:18-19 There's no wonder there have been so many wars and terrorist acts between the Catholics and Protestants then... they're 7 books adrift of each other aren't they? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
pajarito 0 #74 December 22, 2004 QuoteThere's no wonder there have been so many wars and terrorist acts between the Catholics and Protestants then... they're 7 books adrift of each other aren't they? Correct. But show me one that has been intentionally altered with the intent to deceive. Just because they're not included in the Protestant Canon doesn't mean that they don't have some validity. Do the lost books of the Bible prove that the Bible has been altered? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
mr2mk1g 10 #75 December 22, 2004 I don't think there's an intent to decieve - both sides think they're right. The protestant view would be the books were heretically added by someone in the past so ought to be removed to preseve the true word of God. The Catholic view would be they have been heretically removed. Thus at least one reason for the conflict as applying your above quote, which I'm sure is just one place we'd find such sentiment, each view the other faction as heretics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
