storm1977 0 #151 December 21, 2004 One thing Everyone forgets!!!!!!!!!!! The 2 Nukes did not cause nearly as much damage as our conventional bombing of Japan did. FACT: Bloodiest bombings in Japan were over Tokoyo. In one night of conventional bombing in Tokoyo, we killed over 100,000 civilians.... IN ONE NIGHT. Sure we could have done that in Hiroshima too, but I think the Nuke sufficed !!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #152 December 21, 2004 QuoteI heard from a VERY learned scholar, whose father, incidentally, worked on the Manhattan Project, that we were indeed offered unconditional surrender before we dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima. No, they wanted to keep the Emperor in power. We wanted UNCONDITIONAL and we only got that after the Emperor asked the Japanese congress to grant it, and he only did that after we dropped the second bomb...And even then it was with great reluctance and one member comited Hari Kari (Ritual Suicide) in disgrace. QuoteRemember, Ron. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Ya know I say the same thing about WMDs in Iraq, but nobody listens."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kelpdiver 2 #153 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteIt is our right to choose our leader. Is it? As far as I am aware we do not have a popularly elected leader in this country, and never have. I think you might be confusing this Republic with a democracy. Leading to about 20 posts of bickering... No, it is you who intentionally defined this words to make your point. "Choose our leader" means exactly what it says, not elected by a simple majority. Americans choose their leader. It's ridiculous to claim something else does. Sure, we do it on a state by state basis using electors allocated by population share, but that's just a process. Even in 2000, we the people chose Bush to be President, using a well established process. In many Parliamentary systems, you only vote for your representative, and the whole of the Parliament then selects a Prime Minister. It might be accurate to say that those people don't select their leader. Still a bit dishonest and more about semantics. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,647 #154 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteYou also aren't proud of your country's history either. I, for the record, am extremely proud to be an American and am very proud of my country's history. Doesn't surprise me you are proud of the systematic eradication of a race. Dekker FYI - There are more native americans now than there were when the Pilgrim showed up!!!!! A few more whites too. What % of the native Americans' land did the whites appropriate?... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #155 December 21, 2004 Quote A few more whites too. What % of the native Americans' land did the whites appropriate? COUGH... Changing the Subject... COUGH The statement was made that we systematically wiped out a race of people.... We did not. Also, as far as your question above... irrelevent and loaded as well as off the subject. So, I will answer it with a question. How much land did the Portugeese take from the native South americans.... Or the spanish and french for that matter? Or wait.... The British? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #156 December 21, 2004 QuoteSome more than others. Also, (as I stated before) just because everyone else has problems doesn't mean we should be proud of ours. I think the human race, as a whole, should be ashamed of the things we've done and the acts committed against this planet and each other. Very few civilizations have the right to be 'proud' of their history. They might argue that their history overall is better than someone elses, but that's about pointless.it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #157 December 21, 2004 QuoteDekker FYI - There are more native americans now than there were when the Pilgrim showed up!!!!! This fact does nothing but distort the facts of the slaughter, when one considers that population tends to increase at an exponential rate. How many more whites are there in America since the mid 19th century? Just barely a few more? Right.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,144 #158 December 21, 2004 QuoteHow much land did the Portugeese take from the native South americans.... Or the spanish and french for that matter? Or wait.... The British? The fact that other people did it does not justify it. To all who replied to me: I was indicating the complete generalization of indicating that you are proud of a history. I am a proud Canadian, but certainly not proud of all its actions current or past and certainly not proud of all its history. My parents are proud of me, but certainly not proud of all my actions. Nothing wrong with being a proud American. However stating you are proud of its history is a very sweeping statement. Funny enough, when I replied with a very sweeping generalization in response many of you jumped all over that. Pride is a good thing, when it makes blind it most certainly is not. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #159 December 21, 2004 QuoteIf you can only view every country as a sinner, sure. Very Protestant. I don't remember saying that every other country was without fault. But we are at a low point in this country right now, and I for one am not very happy about that. And I'm damn sure not proud of it.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #160 December 21, 2004 QuoteThe 2 Nukes did not cause nearly as much damage as our conventional bombing of Japan did. Dresdon was worse, too, also in the short term, but that was in Germany. If you factored in radiation poisoning of survivors, and the deaths attributed to it, I wonder how benign you would try to make the bombings seem?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #161 December 21, 2004 Quote[ The fact that other people did it does not justify it. Never said it did... Just pointing out How OFF subject Kallends question was. But, I will say this. I as an american an NOT ashamed of my countries past. I am not ashamed of Europeans (my ancestors) Killing Indians and Taking land. I am not Ashamed of slavery in the US or the world for that matter. I am NOT ashamed of Bobming the JAPS, and I am not ashamed of Beina american. ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #162 December 21, 2004 QuoteYa know I say the same thing about WMDs in Iraq They have found evidence of absence there; its not the same thing.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,144 #163 December 21, 2004 Quote as an american an NOT ashamed of my countries past. I am not ashamed of Europeans (my ancestors) Killing Indians and Taking land. I am not Ashamed of slavery in the US or the world for that matter. I am NOT ashamed of Bobming the JAPS, and I am not ashamed of Beina american. Judging from your previous posts, that does not surprise me. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
wildblue 4 #164 December 21, 2004 QuoteI am not ashamed of Europeans (my ancestors) Killing Indians and Taking land. I am not Ashamed of slavery in the US or the world for that matter. I am NOT ashamed of Bobming the JAPS, Seriously??it's like incest - you're substituting convenience for quality Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #165 December 21, 2004 Quote Re: [jcd11235] European perception of America - NEW [In reply to] Quote | Reply In Reply To I heard from a VERY learned scholar, whose father, incidentally, worked on the Manhattan Project, that we were indeed offered unconditional surrender before we dropped the first bomb on Hiroshima. No, they wanted to keep the Emperor in power. We wanted UNCONDITIONAL and we only got that after the Emperor asked the Japanese congress to grant it, and he only did that after we dropped the second bomb...And even then it was with great reluctance and one member comited Hari Kari (Ritual Suicide) in disgrace. No offense intended, Ron, but your credibility is nowhere nearly as high as his. You'll forgive me for not taking your word for it.Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #166 December 21, 2004 QuoteNo offense intended, Ron, but your credibility is nowhere nearly as high as his. You'll forgive me for not taking your word for it. Well PK said the smae thing... I would rather you do some looking into it and make a choice. If you do the research you will find what I say is true. Please, by all means look it up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #167 December 21, 2004 QuoteI as an american an NOT ashamed of my countries past. I am not ashamed of Europeans (my ancestors) Killing Indians and Taking land. I am not Ashamed of slavery in the US or the world for that matter. I am NOT ashamed of Bobming the JAPS, and I am not ashamed of Beina american. I gotta ask. Did you vote for Shrub because of his moral character?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #168 December 21, 2004 Nope, I voted based on what I felt was best for ME first, my country second, and never once concerned myself with the rest of the worlds opinion. If the rest of the worlds opinion really mattered, then they would be living here and voting too!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #169 December 21, 2004 QuoteIf you factored in radiation poisoning of survivors, and the deaths attributed to it, I wonder how benign you would try to make the bombings seem? Yes total contributed to the bombs were around 280,000. (I think its been a while). But I know for sure it was less than just the estimated Allied losses due to an invasion. We had just lost TONS of troops on Iwo Jima, and the invasion plan of the Island f Japan was *much* worse. I know one estimate was 500,000 Allied troops lost. But *please* do some checking. you will find I have done my homework, not just listend to one guy who might have gotten info from a good source. One guy might lie, the masses may distort. But many sources say they would not surrender. Please do look it up."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
jcd11235 0 #170 December 21, 2004 QuoteI would rather you do some looking into it and make a choice. If you do the research you will find what I say is true. Please, by all means look it up. As soon as I find an English translation of a Swiss written American history book, I will do just that. Kind of pointless trying to find it in one written in this country, though; don't you think?Math tutoring available. Only $6! per hour! First lesson: Factorials! Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #171 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteI would rather you do some looking into it and make a choice. If you do the research you will find what I say is true. Please, by all means look it up. As soon as I find an English translation of a Swiss written American history book, I will do just that. Kind of pointless trying to find it in one written in this country, though; don't you think? I don't.... Why would you assume that american history books are anymore biased than say Swiss books or German books or English books???? Because America is soooo Bad? ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #172 December 21, 2004 QuoteAs soon as I find an English translation of a Swiss written American history book, I will do just that. Kind of pointless trying to find it in one written in this country, though; don't you think? Do whatever you think is needed. Really whatever."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
storm1977 0 #173 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuote as an american an NOT ashamed of my countries past. I am not ashamed of Europeans (my ancestors) Killing Indians and Taking land. I am not Ashamed of slavery in the US or the world for that matter. I am NOT ashamed of Bobming the JAPS, and I am not ashamed of Beina american. Judging from your previous posts, that does not surprise me. That maybe, but I am as about directly connected to all of these things as You are. Why should I be ashamed? Noone here is perfect.... No countries history is perfect. But I would GLADLY stand up the Brief History of this Country to any country in the World and compare apple to Apples... Bring it ON!!!!!!!!! Sick and tired of the People both in and out of this country who think it is the Great Satan. However, I respect more the people outside this country that feel this way. But, the next time you visit or buy good made here just remember you are SUPPORTING the "Most Evil Nation" on earth... Have Fun and Keep spending!!!! ----------------------------------------------------- Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SkyDekker 1,144 #174 December 21, 2004 even when I look in left field I cannot fathom what kind of logic you have used to come to any of these conclusions. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
rehmwa 2 #175 December 21, 2004 QuoteQuoteI, for the record, am extremely proud to be an American and am very proud of my country's history. You can't be serious. You are actually comparing the love/pride a parent has for their child with pride in your Nations history? That's not even my quote - what a dirty trick regardless of whether or not I agree with the statement. You are just a very angry person. Get help. ... Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
