How should a person's race be determined? How to apply race based preferences without a definition?

[sundevil777 94]

I think this is important if you are in favor of any race based preferences.

Of course racial discrimination is based on what the individual racist perceives. No definition is needed for people to be racist.

If Mariah Carey doesn't face bigotry because she doesn't appear obviously black, should she be denied a benefit?

Self-identification is OK for many things, the census for example. There is no impact for people to define themselves for many such demographic information related purposes.

But when a tangible benefit is to be applied for being a member of a certain race, it is much more important to have a concrete definition. If a person is to get a preference for college admission, or a business to get preference for government contracts, then I think it is important to have a limit/definition.

Native Americans in Alaska get very tangible benefits, and define inclusion as some fraction of native blood/family tree type relationship. They apparently agree that a definition for inclusion in their race is needed.

Some children of mixed race couples seem to be obviously black/white/hispanic/asian/whatever, so if the potential college student looks white, but is 1/2 black, should he be denied the preference compared to his brother that appears obviously black?

Of course if might seem wrong that being just barely on one side or the other of some fractional definition would leave a person without some benefit compared to someone else that is, say, 1/32 more black/white/hispanic/asian/whatever.

What about a person that is adopted, or for whatever reason can't document their families racial history?

If you can't propose a definition, then I don't think you should advocate race based preferences.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[tunaplanet 0]

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If Mariah Carey doesn't face bigotry because she doesn't appear obviously black, should she be denied a benefit?

She doesn't face bigotry because she's got the sweetest ass and a pair of "fuck me" lips that make you want to stand up and beg for buttermilk.

Forty-two

[sundevil777 94]

I think it is getting too late for both of us.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[mnealtx 0]

How about if we just call all of 'em "Americans" and quit giving out all the special treatment?

If your SAT's/grades are good enough, you get accepted to college... if you prove you can do the job, you get hired....

Mike
I love you, Shannon and Jim.
POPS 9708 , SCR 14706

[pajarito 0]

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How about if we just call all of 'em "Americans" and quit giving out all the special treatment?

If your SAT's/grades are good enough, you get accepted to college... if you prove you can do the job, you get hired....

100% agreement.

[Zenister 0]

I'd agree, but we shouldnt call them "americans' as that is not a race...

why cant we just stick with "human"

ps. most government employees get really pissy when you do that on all their forms... it doesnt fit into the tiny boxes they have predefined...

____________________________________
Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[sundevil777 94]

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why cant we just stick with "human"

No problem for those that do not advocate race based preferences, or affirmative action.

For those that do favor such policies, I would like to hear how they propose to categorize people.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[quade 3]

Maybe you could go around the country and have some people record what they perceive to be the differences on 3x5 cards.

Make sure you also take down the names of the people so that you can do some cross checking later on.

Wait . . . too old school. As I recall some assholes tried that in the 1930s.

Maybe a DNA database?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sundevil777 94]

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Maybe a DNA database?

You might be able to identify some DNA distinctions between races, and let's say you could determine a fractional measure of their heritage. Even then you still need to decide what fraction is going to be the threshold.

Some might say that the current system is OK, where people claim their own race. I think that it is not enough. Bestowing such benefits should not be on the word of the individual.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[quade 3]

Satire is lost on you - isn't it?

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sundevil777 94]

You're attacking me for having no sense of humor!

It is hard to tell if you're trying to be funny or serious. Since I now realize you were not serious, I wonder if you think that my assertion of the need to categorize people is not valid. We have been avoiding this question for too long I think. I understand how it makes those who advocate race based preferences uncomfortable, but try to deal with the question at hand, what do you really think? What is to stop anyone from claiming minority status in order to get a benefit? Native tribes have decided to do it.

edit - your reply was perhaps more sarcasm than satire, and didn't strike me as funny anyway.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[quade 3]

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It is hard to tell if you're trying to be funny or serious.

A little of both but perhaps not seriously funny.

If I was attacking anything it's the concept of the DNA databases being proposed or expanded in so many places.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2003-04-15-dna-usat_x.htm et al.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sundevil777 94]

3 posts on this thread and you haven't said a thing about the issue.

No opinion?

edit to add - How is being compelled to give DNA any different than being compelled to give fingerprints?

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[quade 3]

Well, I -guess- if you can't read between the lines, I'll have to be a little more obvious.

I think the concept of "proof of race" is silly. I think it's an argument proposed by folks that are uncomfortable with affirmative action and while it's fine with me that some folks are simply uncomfortable with the concept, there are others that use the fight for or against affirmative action as code and I think those people are narrow minded bigots and I have a difficult time dealing with those folks.

As for the differences between DNA and fingerprints. Fingerprints identify individuals and while DNA can also be used to identify individuals, it can also be used to identfiy that individual as part of a group. DNA databases ought to be approached with large amounts of caution. Fingerprints give ONE piece of information . . . DNA gives far, far too much information. DNA matching of evidence is good. DNA databases of the population as a whole are NOT a good thing.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[sundevil777 94]

So you think the Native tribes are silly? Seems to me they are just protecting the benefit they grant their members to those that deserve to be considered members.

Too many people are too quick to conclude that those 'uncomfortable' with affirmative action because it is race based are 'narrow minded bigots'. That is an example of prejudice many liberals don't want to recognize. Much easier to dismiss them than deal with the issue.

How to apply race based preferences without a definition?

I don't think it is a silly question.

People are sick and tired of being told that ordinary and decent people are fed up in this country with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am

[quade 3]

Did you read the part about it applying to people on both sides of the issue?

There is a need for certain aspects of affirmative action.
There is no need for either side to use it as a weapon of hate.

I maintain my opinion, you have not swayed it.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[freeryde13 0]

i think it should be a satistcal moving average with wieghted points based on what kind of music someone listens to, clothes they wear, and what tv shows they watch. all this divided by a color spectrum analasys of the aplicants skin on the back of their hand.

and i think we should spend alot of time and money to get the formula just right.

_________________________________________

people see me as a challenge to their balance

[Kennedy 0]

OK, assuming that was a smartassed comment, what is to stop me from claiming to be an African-, Asian-, or Asshat- American for benefits?

If you support race based preferences, how do you determine race?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Casurf1978 0]

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edit to add - How is being compelled to give DNA any different than being compelled to give fingerprints?

A fingerprint is only used to ID. That's as far as it goes. DNA on the other hand can tell me everything about you. If we know the gene for heart disease and your DNA is in a database anyone with access could run a screen on your DNA for that. A health insurance company might run DNA screens for certain diseases and either up your premium or deny you coverage if you have certain undesirable genes. A DNA database is a good idea, but the potential for abuse is far too easy.

[Rebecca 0]

What I wanna know is, how the hell does Discover card know I'm Irish-American?? They keep sending me shamrock card offers...

I haven't read this thread, but aren't most race-based benefits/scholarships pretty clear on their definition? Like 1/8th qualifies, as long as one of your great-grandparents was a representative of a particular race...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Kennedy 0]

Well hell, one of my grandfathers was an orphan, but I can always claim that he looked like whatever the girfted minority is. WOnder if that would work. Is anyone really going to claim that places are going to check fourteen relatives, when between eight and twelve ar likely to be deceased?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*