Now THIS pisses me off SO MUCH!!!

[windcatcher 0]

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How do you know it wasn't aliens?

haha Jeffrey, way to inject humor into SC!!!
oh wait, were you serious?

Mother to the cutest little thing in the world...

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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Now back to the more important things the seals. I hope they slaughter the people that did that.

J

Wow. I always find it amazing that so many people can speak out against the death penalty for humans who murder humans, but so many people can advocate slaughter for those who kill animals. Not just execution but "slaughter."

I don't know where you personally stand about capital punishment, though.

I do know that in a thread where I said I would laugh at the misfortune of someone who tried to rob me but shot himself in the throat by accident -- someone who was trying to do me harm -- that sentiment was called "disgusting."

And people here are advocating slaughtering those who killed some seals (my sympathy to the seals, at any rate) and others are going, "Yeah, yeah!"

PhillyKev, you were the one who called my vindictive laughter at my hypothetical assailant "disgusting." What do you have to say about "slaughtering" the people who killed these seals?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Rudderow 2]

Looks like someone doesn't like seals too much, ehh??

[Rebecca 0]

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Raping it's resources? Like Oil? Yea we really raped the oil, it was happy sitting there under miles of dirt minding it's own business.

Um, like the rainforest? Which was happy minding its own business providing us with a rather large chunk of the oxygen we need, not to mention keeping alive many of the plants used to produce our medicines? You know, the one we keep chopping down? Oh, and yes, the oil that we harvest by digging up and destroying wildlife habitats?

I know we need these things, but we're using them up at an unsustainable rate. Non-renewable, you know? Even the trees can't grow back fast enough.

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Man *IS* part of nature. Our actions form part of the existence of Earth and IMHO the richest part in many ways. Life in the Solar system is much more brutal than man.

Of course we're part of nature. We're here, so we're a part of it. The part that takes without sustaining. Life in the solar system? You mean, us on earth? That's more brutal than man? How? How is anything on this planet more brutal than we are? Explain, 'cause I'd love to hear this.

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The Earth has been "raped" several times by cometary collisions that cause massive extinctions of most species and ecosystems. That's OK by you because the comet has no brain.

No, that's OK by me because it has no choice. None. That's not "rape", that's a cataclysmic event.

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You're too busy fretting over some cruel details (that happen a millionfold in nature if truth be told) and completely miss how enriching a conscious intelligent presence is on our planet.

Wow. You got me there. You're right - I totally missed that. So, tell me about how other animals routinely and for reasons entirely other than survival wipe out entire generations of other animals. I wanna hear that too.

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It's an indulgent position I find as contemtible and disappointing as many other unfortunate human traits.

Biting typing fingers, following rules...

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

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I don't consider it human life, therefore it is not murder. Period. Not sure why you can't understand that. Understand why you don't agree, but not why you don't understand.

I can't understand why you don't consider it a human life.

How far along into it looking like a human being, having a heartbeat, having brain waves, do you still not consider it a human being?

Is this just because it can't talk, and hasn't learned the symbology of language yet? Then we're "safe" to say it's not yet a human being? It can't protest its treatment, so it's not a human being?

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People who scream about protecting innocent human lives but support war are hypocrites.

Is this universal? Were people who supported fighting the Axis in WWII hypocrites if they claimed to protect innocent lives? Isn't fighting some wars actually tantamount to protecting innocent lives, even though in war one has to kill?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Zenister 0]

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Anyone who could not find themselves motivated to vote in 2004, of all years, in the U.S., is hopeless

not at all. I know a number of people who being completely dissatisfied with the only electable options offered chose not to participate in a process that had NO CHANCE to reflect the political views they hold.

Until the 2 party strangle hold is broken, and/or the major parties revamp the primary system so that individuals with REAL leadership ability are selected as candidates, it is likely a vast majority of the non-voters will continue to decline to participate as 'lip service' to a system that does not, will not, and cannot represent them

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huger

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[billvon 2,400]

>How far along into it looking like a human being, having a heartbeat,
>having brain waves, do you still not consider it a human being?

Would you agree, then, that a fetus that does not yet have brain activity is not a human being?

[Rebecca 0]

Ugh. I am so sick of politics. Don't we have enough freakin' threads in this forum devoted to every frickin' political topic without turning this thread into one too?

(Not directed solely at you, Zenister. )

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[PhillyKev 0]

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PhillyKev, you were the one who called my vindictive laughter at my hypothetical assailant "disgusting." What do you have to say about "slaughtering" the people who killed these seals?

I think it's ridiculous and extreme. If they took glee in it as well it would also be disgusting.

[Zenister 0]

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I don't consider it human life, therefore it is not murder. Period. Not sure why you can't understand that. Understand why you don't agree, but not why you don't understand.

I can't understand why you don't consider it a human life.

How far along into it looking like a human being, having a heartbeat, having brain waves, do you still not consider it a human being?

Is this just because it can't talk, and hasn't learned the symbology of language yet? Then we're "safe" to say it's not yet a human being? It can't protest its treatment, so it's not a human being?

no it simply cannot live in the environment common to the entire human species without surrogate support (womb or heroic medical means) for basic biological functions...until it can autonomously sustain those primary biological processes shared by all humanity, it isnt a member of the species... why should potential be given the same status as actuality?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[Zenister 0]

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Ugh. I am so sick of politics. Don't we have enough freakin' threads in this forum devoted to every frickin' political topic without turning this thread into one too?

(Not directed solely at you, Zenister. )

indeed, now that the election is over it would be nice if we could focus the discussion more policy instead

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[PhillyKev 0]

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I can't understand why you don't consider it a human life.

And I can't understand why you do. If you are really interested in why I believe the way I do, do a search, they've been posted many times. I'm not going to try and convince you to change your mind. You won't and neither will I.

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Is this universal? Were people who supported fighting the Axis in WWII hypocrites if they claimed to protect innocent lives? Isn't fighting some wars actually tantamount to protecting innocent lives, even though in war one has to kill?

Yes, it's universal. If you're willing to decide on the sacrifice that others should make in order to protect human life, than you should be willing to accept the sacrifices demanded of you by others in order to protect human life. Otherwise it is hypocrisy. Everyone's a hypocrite in one form or another. That is also universal.

[Rebecca 0]

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Ugh. I am so sick of politics. Don't we have enough freakin' threads in this forum devoted to every frickin' political topic without turning this thread into one too?

(Not directed solely at you, Zenister. )

indeed, now that the election is over it would be nice if we could focus the discussion more policy instead

Go right ahead. In another thread. Unless you want to talk environmental and endangered species act policy, in which case, feel free.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Rebecca 0]

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Everyone's a hypocrite in one form or another. That is also universal.

True dat. I kill mosquitos and roaches ruthlessly.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[Zenister 0]

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Everyone's a hypocrite in one form or another. That is also universal.

True dat. I kill mosquitos and roaches ruthlessly.

nothing hypocritical about that... even the Dali Lama kills insects... he will brush them off once.. after that its simply their chance to 'evolve'

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[dorbie 0]

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Wow. You got me there. You're right - I totally missed that. So, tell me about how other animals routinely and for reasons entirely other than survival wipe out entire generations of other animals. I wanna hear that too.

I think you've watched too many Disney movies. Where do you think many of our baser Human behaviors evolved from?

I've seen animals take revenge on other species or attack them out of spite or frustration.

[diablopilot 2]

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I don't want children and I shouldn't have to have surgery or stop having sex with my husband. Abortion should not be used as birth control. Many people are actually responsible when it comes to their sex lives.

Even as good as modern birth control is, catfishhunter has a point. Don't know if he meant it so, but NO birth control methog bar permentent sterilization or abstinence is 100% foolproof. They all have margins of error. I'll take those odds though.....

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Zenister 0]

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Wow. You got me there. You're right - I totally missed that. So, tell me about how other animals routinely and for reasons entirely other than survival wipe out entire generations of other animals. I wanna hear that too.

I think you've watched too many Disney movies. Where do you think many of our baser Human behaviors evolved from?

i think you fail to understand the nature of evil/cruelty.. our base behavior comes from the actions we take against each other... a individual's greatest threat comes from members of its own species... they are after the same resources...

no other species attacks any other in the manner we do... you will never see lions 'waging war' and exterminating cheetas for example... they only compete as individuals when theyre territories overlap and threaten each other...

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.

[diablopilot 2]

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Man is capable of many things, from wanton cruelty to irrational indulgent self loathing. We all have the capacity for this inside but many of us choose to live and act and think well. To take an isolated incident of the most horrible abhorrent kind of behavior and use that to tar us all as a species in support of your agenda when most of us are repulsed by this doesn't even approach rational thought.

Bravo!

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[kelpdiver 2]

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Does a hawk swoop down, rip its guts out and fly away just for kicks?

I don't know but Killer whales have been filmed catching seals and "playing with them". They flip them about 20-30 feet in the air and smack them with their tales anout 100 feet. Saw it on discovery.

Not that it condones seal slaughters by fishing concerns, but sea lions do a similar thing with the mola mola. They like to rip off its primary fins and play with them. The molas sink to the bottom and lie there till the starfish get em.

http://jor.com/dive/dive-nov/molamola2-W.jpg

[Rebecca 0]

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Wow. You got me there. You're right - I totally missed that. So, tell me about how other animals routinely and for reasons entirely other than survival wipe out entire generations of other animals. I wanna hear that too.

I think you've watched too many Disney movies. Where do you think many of our baser Human behaviors evolved from?

i think you fail to understand the nature of evil/cruelty.. our base behavior comes from the actions we take against each other... a individual's greatest threat comes from members of its own species... they are after the same resources...

no other species attacks any other in the manner we do... you will never see lions 'waging war' and exterminating cheetas for example... they only compete as individuals when theyre territories overlap and threaten each other...

Thanks for the back-up Zenister!
And Angus, please climb off your psuedo-intellectual high-horse and cut out the "I think you've watched too many Disney movies" remarks. And while you're at it, answer the question. It's at the top of this post.

you've got to ask yourself one question: 'Do I feel loquacious?' -- well do you, punk?

[dorbie 0]

Wrong. Presenting a anthropological conceit as fact will not win the argument.

Our behaviors can be seen as evolved traits. Several primates wage war (as do some insect colonies). As for waging war on other species, that's not what happened here but some animals have evolved to eliminate the competition.

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i think you fail to understand the nature of evil/cruelty.. our base behavior comes from the actions we take against each other... a individual's greatest threat comes from members of its own species... they are after the same resources...

no other species attacks any other in the manner we do... you will never see lions 'waging war' and exterminating cheetas for example... they only compete as individuals when theyre territories overlap and threaten each other...

[dorbie 0]

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And Angus, please climb off your psuedo-intellectual high-horse

Yea... riiiiight

[diablopilot 2]

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Raping it's resources? Like Oil? Yea we really raped the oil, it was happy sitting there under miles of dirt minding it's own business.

Man *IS* part of nature. Our actions form part of the existence of Earth and IMHO the richest part in many ways. Life in the Solar system is much more brutal than man.

The Earth has been "raped" several times by cometary collisions that cause massive extinctions of most species and ecosystems. That's OK by you because the comet has no brain. We do, so maybe if we're smart we can do something about the next collision, and even avoid the otherwise inevitable extinction of all life on our world with the death of the Sun & geothermal activity.

I'm not saying a world is entirely pointless without intelligent life, but is a petri dish of bacteria pointless before it's sterilized. I'm sure the bacteria have a great time but... well ...

It's not that the Earth would be pointless without us, it would be vastly diminished. You're too busy fretting over some cruel details (that happen a millionfold in nature if truth be told) and completely miss how enriching a conscious intelligent presence is on our planet. It's an indulgent position I find as contemtible and disappointing as many other unfortunate human traits.

Man is an animal in part, driven by instincts and baser motives, it's in part our legacy of being like the animals you adore that drives some of what you despise. Not that I really like to draw a distinction between different aspects of what a human is.

Again, Bravo!

What has been said here should not be construed as license to go out and rape and pillage the planet, but it should be a wake up call to those that say things like "the planet would be better off without humanity". Bullpucky.

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You're not as good as you think you are. Seriously.

[Zenister 0]

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Wrong. Presenting a anthropological conceit as fact will not win the argument.

Our behaviors can be seen as evolved traits. Several primates wage war. As for waging war on other species, that's not what happened here but some animals have evolved to eliminate the competition.

Now you are misusing the concept of war.. does one group of primates travel to engage another when they have sufficent resources at their current local? apart from humanity inter-species conflicts do not exist on any level other than competition for territory or resources... Tigers do not come in conflict because of 'personality differences', do not over poach their food supply, or slaughter other animals that no impact on their lives... humans DO all of these things...

have you are misapplying the cause behind the action and attempting to personify animals in a manner that is not scientifically sound.

find me one example of a species (apart from humanity) intentionally causing the extinction of another species when resources were NOT a consideration?

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Those who fail to learn from the past are simply Doomed.