Should Britan be armed?

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

Oh, and by the way, getting a gun in England is not difficult

Pretty difficult if your a kid, well more difficult than going to your parents drawer.

I am certain that your feeling that its your right to have a gun will overpower what I consider to be reason, but just consider it briefly the next time you hear about a kid getting shot, or opening fire on a school.

I have some news for you, and while you may not want to believe it, it is in fact true.

(1) It is not difficult to get your hands on a gun in England. Anyone willing to break the law can have one in a day or less.

(2) Believing that I have the right to the best means of self defense does not make me a heartless demon. It hurts everytime I hear about a kid, or any other innocent, getting hurt by a criminal.

(3) Yes, it may be harder to get a gun when there isn't one in the house, but is it significantly harder? Is the difference between a criminal spending 15 minutes really that much worse than him spending four hours?

(4) Any kid who wants to go shoot up his school or classmates is not going to balk at buying a gun off the streets. Stealing rights from his parents and other adults doesn't stop him. It barely slows him down.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

Staring down the double barrels of a twelve gauge would encourage a career change mighty quick.

It does me no comfort or reassurance to think that there are some people out there who choose not to be violent criminals simply because they are dissuaded out of it by the prospect of being killed by a homeowner. Like, they're sitting there going, "Y'know, I have no other problem with robbing and maybe killing people except for the danger to me that exists in such a pursuit, so I think I'll go legit."

Seems to me that they are just always on the precipice of doing honest people harm, if that's the tenuouis way in which they come to be on the right side of the law.

-Jeffrey

I agree. I was just trying to point out that being confronted by a home owner with a shotgun would, assuming they live to make a choice, encourage them to at least stick to crimes of property where citizens are not confronted.
(burglary rather than home invasion; theft rather than robbery; etc)

Like you, I realize that in the real world, there are people who cannot and will not obey the laws that make society function. Defending yourself and society from them is a vital responsibility. Like you, I take that responsibility seriously.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

It is quite a safe place here because their are no guns and i am curious as to how you can argue that britan should have guns when you are in the states. Do you know it is like to live here? It is different from the states. Most villages only have around 2000 people in them.

Maybe you haven't checked the statistics from your Home Office, but your violent crime rate (ENgland and Wales) was higher than the violent crime rate here in the US.

Also, our crime rates are dropping slowly but consistently. Are you aware that yours are rising, and have been since at least the time your guns were banned?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

Do you understand the difference between being made to feel safe, and actually being safe?

Fear of crime is something we measure in this country. 16% of people in this country fear being involved in a violent crime. 2.2% of people in this country are actually injured in a violent crime. (British Crime Survey 2003/2004)

Seems like people's fears are actually way way above what the reality of the situation is. And you're hearing first hand testimony here that people don't feel particularly threatened.

(edited to add source... incase you hadn't guessed it).

Jeffrey must have hit the nail right on the head. Only 16% of people in your country fear being involved in crime, but over 25% of your people actually ARE victimized by a crime each year.

There is testimony from people in the US that they feel safe walking alone at night in New York and Chicago. Does that mean you will believe American cities are safe now?

edit: you can follow the difference between being victim of a crime and being injured in a crime, right?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Though statistical analysis has its flaws, it would seem the pro-gun people are unwilling to tackle the argument above. Americas population is five times larger than Britain's. However America has a "firearms murder rate" thirty four times larger than Britain's. I would be interested in any pro-gun arguments that could account for this discrepency.

As has been discussed ad nauseum, even in these forums, straight comparison of crime rates country to country is invalid. It becomes more so the further away and more different the countries are. Seeing as England is across and ocean, part of a different continent, and a very different culture, any direct comparison of numbers is useless as best, misleading at worst.

I'll say it again, our homicide, violent crime, and overall crime rates are dropping. What are they doing in England?

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[andybr6 0]

I would disagree. The straight comparison of crime rates can reveal a great deal in these circumstances. If the difference in crime rates were less then i would except your point of view. However the difference in firearms murders per capita between Britain and America is so great it cannot be ignored. I have American family and have spent a great deal of time in the states, because of this i refuse to believe that Americans are simply more inclined to murder each other with firearms than Brits. The easy access to firearms is the only logical explanation that can shed light on huge anomaly that the crime rates reveal.

To simply dismiss the statistical anlysis that both our governments refer to in legislation is rediculous.

------------------------------------------------

"All men can fly, but sadly, only in one direction"

[jakee 1,257]

Quote

(1) It is not difficult to get your hands on a gun in England. Anyone willing to break the law can have one in a day or less.

Just a thought here, feel free to put me down if you want, what do you reckon the number of illegal guns per capita is here in the UK compared to the US? I'm willing to bet we've got far fewer 'street guns' per person than you guys have. You may say that its easy for criminals to get guns right now but I think that very few thugs (outside London, Birmingham or Manchester) have actually gone to the trouble.

Seriously, if our thugs decided to arm themselves to anything like the scale of your thugs Britain would run out of guns very, very quickly. It would then become rather more difficult to get your hands on a gun, and the expansion of the black market would probably make it much easier for the police to target.

Again, those are just my thoughts and before anyone asks no, I haven't looked up any data to support them. Still, I'm a lot less likely to get shot here than where you guys are.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

The straight comparison of crime rates can reveal a great deal in these circumstances.

There's not much I can say here except that you are wrong. If you won't even consider that, let alone accept it, then there is nothing I can do either way.

"There is none so blind as he who will not see."

Quote

If the difference in crime rates were less then i would except your point of view.

So you would disbelieve the truth because it doesn't fit with your hypothesis? What happened to discovering the facts and then deciding?

"Don't confuse me with the facts, I've alrady made up my mind."

Quote

i refuse to believe that Americans are simply more inclined to murder each other with firearms than Brits. The easy access to firearms is the only logical explanation that can shed light on huge anomaly that the crime rates reveal.

Refuse to believe it all you want, that doesn't make it less true.

Who cares if Americans choose firearms while Brits choose other weapons? Do you really care what is used to kill you? Would you prefer stabbing or bludgeoning to being shot?

Quote

To simply dismiss the statistical anlysis that both our governments refer to in legislation is rediculous.

I don't dismiss the statistics on either side of the pond. However you are trying to take numbers across national boundaries. You need to realize that things are not as simple as you want them to be.


I'm also still waiting for you to address the fact that our crime is in decline, while yours is booming, while our firearms ownership rate rises and you have outlawed guns to the peasantry.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

feel free to put me down if you want

I prefer to keep things civil (and thank you fod doing the same), though I appreciate an acid wit.

Quote

what do you reckon the number of illegal guns per capita is here in the UK compared to the US? I'm willing to bet we've got far fewer 'street guns' per person than you guys have.

What you are "willing to bet" is completely irrelevant. I could say I'm willing to be the exact opposite, or any other position, and we hit an impass. Without some sort of facts or stats to back up your claim, we lose the ability to honestly disagree.

Quote

I think that very few thugs (outside London, Birmingham or Manchester) have actually gone to the trouble.

Again, without some sort of evidence as to the veracity of your claim, this cannot go anywhere.

Quote

if our thugs decided to arm themselves to anything like the scale of your thugs Britain would run out of guns very, very quickly.

Do you have anything to back this up? In my experience, the black market can expand to accomodate just about any demand possible.

Quote

Still, I'm a lot less likely to get shot here than where you guys are.

You are, however, far, far more likely to be the victim of a crime.
England's victimization rate is over 26%.
That rate for the US is around 4%.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Quote

[
Why on earth do you find it at all preferable to be stabbed to death with a knife rather than shot to death with a gun??

Or are you claiming that you'd rather be attacked with a knife because you feel you're badass enough to go bare-handed against a guy with a knife? Like your triumph is assured, if "all he has is a knife"?

Actually - yes. Been there, done that. The one and only time anyone has tried to rob me was while I was in college. He walked up to me, told me had a knife, told me he wanted money, then as he went for the knife I tossed him against the wall of the building and walked away.

I think of the scenario you described as quite different from one in which an assailant, knife in hand, has demanded your money. How confident would you be about fighting, bare-handed, a person whose knife is already presented for combat? (Let's assume a decent-sized knife, too, so that you don't wiggle out of this by saying it might be a small pen-knife -- which by the way could still be lethal.)

Think you'd manage to win the fight, let alone not get cut pretty badly?

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Though statistical analysis has its flaws, it would seem the pro-gun people are unwilling to tackle the argument above. Americas population is five times larger than Britain's. However America has a "firearms murder rate" thirty four times larger than Britain's. I would be interested in any pro-gun arguments that could account for this discrepency.

The U.S. has an immensely greater number of people living in squalid inner-city conditions (an economic problem) than U.K. does. And the significant majority of murders are felons killing felons in this country.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

I would disagree. The straight comparison of crime rates can reveal a great deal in these circumstances. If the difference in crime rates were less then i would except your point of view. However the difference in firearms murders per capita between Britain and America is so great it cannot be ignored... i refuse to believe that Americans are simply more inclined to murder each other with firearms than Brits. The easy access to firearms is the only logical explanation that can shed light on huge anomaly that the crime rates reveal.

Uh, wait a minute. You went from talking about "crime rates" one moment to "murder rates" the next. Did you think we would not notice?

The crime rate in the U.K. IS higher than that of the U.S. The murder rate may be a different story, but ours is going down, that much has been true for over a decade. And our rate of accidental death by firearm has gone down in every single year it has been recorded, since early in the 20th century. Every single year fewer die by accidental gunshot in the U.S. -- and this despite the presence of over 250,000,000 privately owned guns, and an additional 3-5 million new guns purchased each year.

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

Jeffrey must have hit the nail right on the head. Only 16% of people in your country fear being involved in crime, but over 25% of your people actually ARE victimized by a crime each year.

edit: you can follow the difference between being victim of a crime and being injured in a crime, right?

Please source your figures as I have done so we all know where each other is coming from.

I gave the statistic that 16% of people "fear violent crime". It is true that there is a difference between being injured by and being involved in this kind of crime.

The % of people in this country who are involved in violent crime is 4.1% (British Crime Survey 2003/4). Slightly higher than the 2.2 who are sustain at least a minor injury in violent but by far lower than the 25% figure you give.

I’ll reiterate: the rate of violent crime is NOT "over 25%" as you suggest. Please source your figures.

The figure for involvement in overall crime is 26%. This is at its lowest level since records began more than 20 years ago, having fallen from a high 40% in 1995. The figure you chose to rely on shows crime here is falling drastically!

If you want to look at trends in the levels of violent crime that’s cool too - they’re down by 26% since 1997 – the year when we had our guns taken away from us. That’s right, since we lost our guns violent crime fell by 26%. (British Crime Survey 2003/4).

Quote

There is testimony from people in the US that they feel safe walking alone at night in New York and Chicago. Does that mean you will believe American cities are safe now?

My point was merely that perception of crime and actual crime can be very different things. Here in Britain we perceive violent crime to be at 16% when it is actually 4 times lower than that.

Quit buying into the lies you are fed by the propaganda in your country, things are not all doom and gloom over here. We are quite happy with the way our laws are working; we do not want to change things drastically and we certainly do not want to arm everyone. Most of all we have no desire to meddle with your gun ownership rights, nor do we have any particular interest in them.

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Quote

(1) It is not difficult to get your hands on a gun in England. Anyone willing to break the law can have one in a day or less.

Just a thought here, feel free to put me down if you want, what do you reckon the number of illegal guns per capita is here in the UK compared to the US?

Well, I have read reports that there are an estimated FOUR MILLION ILLEGAL GUNS in the U.K.

Now, even if you estimate that you have ONE MILLION violent criminals in your midst, that means each dude has four guns.

I don't remember what your population is there, what, 60 million? Put four million over sixty million to get your per-capita rate of guns to people.

And I'd say that of the estimated 250,000,000 guns in private hands in the U.S., probably a very small percentage of those are illegally held.

That's the problem with your laws in the U.K. -- you have guaranteed yourselves that if someone has a gun, he's most likely to be a criminal, and the kind who has sought out an illegal gun to possess.

Quote

Seriously, if our thugs decided to arm themselves to anything like the scale of your thugs Britain would run out of guns very, very quickly.

How do you figure it would be so easy to deplete a supply of four million guns?

Let's say that estimate is 400% of what it truly should be, and there are only ONE million illegal guns in the U.K. (fair enough that I cut the estimate by FOUR for you?) You think you have so many criminals there that you'd run out of guns giving one to each of one million "thugs"? Wow! Things are worse in England than I thought!

Quote

Again, those are just my thoughts and before anyone asks no, I haven't looked up any data to support them. Still, I'm a lot less likely to get shot here than where you guys are.

And you say this based on admittedly not looking up anything, including your statistical likelihood of getting shot versus ours... Interesting that you can state a belief with such conviction absent any investigation of facts...

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[mr2mk1g 10]

Quote

Interesting that you can state a belief with such conviction absent any investigation of facts...

At least he's right though – statistically there is a far greater chance of being shot in the US than here - 34 times more likely in fact. The figures have been posted in the thread several times now.

Of course as has been pointed out figures like that have their weaknesses so I'm not making that big a deal out of them... but what he stated is correct, and 34 times is a big difference to account for.

Anyway, later chaps - it's Saturday morning and I'm off to the DZ.

[Paulipod 0]

I would go the other way to the poll... and actually toughen the law...

Its true, that criminals are more likely to break the law and own a gun, so I would toughen the sentence for possesion.

It is true that statistically a 5% rise is not good... but 5% of something small is less than 2% of something huge....

I find it staggering that given the hard facts of number of gunshot incidents in the US would not lead people to think that something is not quite right! and I would hate to see the UK move more in that direction.

I live in Nottingham, one of the higher gun crime cities in the UK but even still, the number of shootings / deaths we can count without electronic devices.

Presently our laws dont punish people enough for killings IMO but I think a larger deterrent for being caught with a gun would leave only a hardcore group willing to carry.

Bodyflight Bedford
www.bodyflight.co.uk

[Skyrad 0]

I wonder hich country the UK (yes I know three countries) has the higher incident of stabings (when corrected for population difference)

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Liverpool, newcastle and Birmingham I'm sure are just as awash with illegal firearms and the problem in Glasgow was so bad that Strathclyde police was actually BUYING illegal firearms just to keep them off the streets! In the cuds its easy to obtain shotguns.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Skyrad 0]

Where do you get this figure of four million PJ?

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[jakee 1,257]

Fair enough, like I said it was just a thought and I was too lazy to look up any numbers.

One small point though,

***I don't dismiss the statistics on either side of the pond. However you are trying to take numbers across national boundaries. You need to realize that things are not as simple as you want them to be.


I'm also still waiting for you to address the fact that our crime is in decline, while yours is booming, while our firearms ownership rate rises and you have outlawed guns to the peasantry.

Quote

You refuse to answer a question because you claim that comparison of national crime rates is meaningless, then in the next paragraph demand an answer to a question you posed based upon, thats right, comparison of national crime rates.

Do you want to have an ideagasm?

• Quote

[peacefuljeffrey 0]

Quote

Where do you get this figure of four million PJ?

I've read it in various articles, ranging from BBC stuff online to the NRA magazine.

Of course, some here will dismiss anything that comes from the NRA out of hand... and at the same time will believe anything an anti-gun organization will say...

-Jeffrey

-Jeffrey
"With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!"

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

Quote

I'm also still waiting for you to address the fact that our crime is in decline, while yours is booming, while our firearms ownership rate rises and you have outlawed guns to the peasantry.

You refuse to answer a question because you claim that comparison of national crime rates is meaningless, then in the next paragraph demand an answer to a question you posed based upon, thats right, comparison of national crime rates.

Comparison of rates is basically useless. Trends in crime rates can be somewhat useful, though limited in practical applications.

I was simply pointing out that our crime rateis dropping...
(while gun ownership rates continue to rise)

...and that your rates are much higher are much less consistent...
(while guns are outlawed)

Guns are not a cause of crime or of anything else. They are a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[Jimbo 0]

Quote

Guns are not a cause of crime or of anything else. They are a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

Silly Kennedy! Hammers and screwdrivers are tools. Guns are noisy, scary killing machines.

-
Jim

"Like" - The modern day comma
Good bye, my friends. You are missed.

[christelsabine 1]

Quote

Guns are not a cause of crime or of anything else. They are a tool, nothing more, nothing less.

One day there will be someone figuring out that butter knifes are weapons.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

One day there will be someone figuring out that butter knifes are weapons.

Well, they've been used as weapons before and will be again.

Don't despair though, school administratiors in "zero intelligence," sorry "zero tolerance" schools have suspended elemetary school children (grade school) because their mother put a butter knife in their lunch.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*