U.S. Army Unit in Iraq Refuses Risky Mission

[rhino 0]

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I think thats pretty naieve,

Not really... Proper body armor and proper armor on HumV's would have saved a few hundred lives already.. A change in tactics would be nice also, taking different routes every day, staying off of main roads, going roof to roof when possible using listening devices.

If some money was actually invested our troops would be having a much easier time in urban combat.

Rhino

[PhillyKev 0]

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That letter was written just before the $87 billion was approved, was it not?

What does $87 billion for rebuilding Iraq's infrastructure have to do with military equipment?

[Shark 0]

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It is hard to motivate the troops when the reason for that war has changed 3 or 4 times in a year. They need to be positive about what they are going to die for.

Tell that to the platoon who completed the mission.

Looks like the Spanish in their haste to pull out of combat are still being targeted by terrorist.

[Skyrad 0]

***A change in tactics would be nice also, taking different routes every day, staying off of main roads, going roof to roof when possible using listening devices.
***
That I agree with.

but i'm guessing that you've not seen what a culvert bomb can do to a armoured humvee, I've seen what they do to armoured landrovers and belive me body armour would have made next to no difference.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[Botellines 0]

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Tell that to the platoon who completed the mission.

So are you telling me that U.S troops are highly motivated? You know better than me, but I don´t think so.

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Looks like the Spanish in their haste to pull out of combat are still being targeted by terrorist.

Actually we were never in combat, we just were there for some humanitarian bullshit. But yes, we are still targetted by terrorist. Just tonight eight terrorist were captured when plotting to blow up the national courthouse. So what is your point? Do you think that the U.S is any safer because it is still fighting an illegal war? don´t you think that there is many, many terrorists plotting against the U.S at this very same moment, and you may end up finding it out too late? How naive!!!!

Just for the record, Aznar screwed up following Bush and Blair in their texans adventure. Zapatero rectified by getting the troops out of there regardless of terrorist attacks, that was promised way before 3/11. See, if you greatly screw up, the proper thing is to rectified regardless of your ego. It takes a big man to do that. The other option is the childish attitude to keep trying to make right the wrong.
At this moment all the U.S is doing in Irak is trying to get either a WMD or a link to AlQuaeda or recognition of the Iraqui citizens, despite not getting any of them for over a year... and the deadline is November 2nd.

[Skyrad 0]

Actualy the Americans are trying to bring 'freedom' to the peoples of Iraq, so that the Iraqi people can walk the streets without fear of being killed and told what to do. So they can walk the streets of Falluja without being killed.

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rhino 0]

Let's pray that it happens some day.

[Skyrad 0]

Amen

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[rhino 0]

I second that...

[pajarito 0]

I'm kind of late getting into this one but I believe that the unit was dead wrong. Granted, I don't know all the details but, looking at it on its face, it appears that they disobeyed a lawful order. I've never been sent anywhere in the Army with "everything" I needed. However, in a combat situation, sometimes you have to improvise, adapt, and overcome. Sometimes, you've got to just suck it up and make something happen. That unit had every right to voice opinions or to point out things that might have been unsafe. The Commander should have then taken their concerns into consideration. However, they did not have the right to refuse an assigned mission. Sometimes a Commander has to send troops into harms way even if they aren’t fully prepared or ready. Even if they had to drive unarmored vehicles or even if they thought they might be carrying contaminated fuel. It doesn't matter. The situation sometimes dictates that you must drive ahead. Discipline in the ranks cannot be allowed to degrade. There is usually not much margin of error to allow for dissidence and insubordination. It should be taken care of immediately and the ones in charge should be disciplined appropriately and made examples of. This type of thing is nothing new Rhino. These types of situations arise in any war. It is not "just the beginning" of widespread mutiny as is suggested in your original post. It's just something that needs to be handled in the normal course of war.

[rhino 0]

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It is not "just the beginning" of widespread mutiny as is suggested in your original post. It's just something that needs to be handled in the normal course of war.

If this keeps up for too long we will see allot more of it...

[Botellines 0]

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Actualy the Americans are trying to bring 'freedom' to the peoples of Iraq, so that the Iraqi people can walk the streets without fear of being killed and told what to do. So they can walk the streets of Falluja without being killed.

Everybody, wants to have freedom, but at what cost?
Would you sacrifice your life and your family´s life only so you and your kids can vote, or speak against the government?
With Saddam, they had no freedom, however if they wanted a fair chance to live, they pretty much knew the rules. Don´t speak against Saddam and do what you are told to, it sucks but they could LIVE with that or flee away. (Sadly, In Spain we know about dictators)
Now with the U.S military there, there is no way they can walk the streets of Fallujah, but when this war stop being convenient for the U.S. they will leave and most likely there will be a constant war beetwen the tribes for control of Irak. Like they have been doing for centuries until Saddam stopped that shit. AlQuaeda is doing as much as they can to sabotage the creation of a democracy in Irak, that was foreseeable, as it was that the U.S would have to pull out sooner or later, leaing them on their own.
I am not saying that there is not people out there who wants irakies to be free, but i do know for sure that the freedom of irak, or at least when that concerns the well being of its citizens is not a priority of the U.S government.
Right now, this war on Irak is part of the presidential campaign, and admitting you were wrong and you costed the country a lot of money and human lives would be a political suicide, 3 weeks before elections or 6 months, it doesn´t matter.
If Bush can somehow justify his mistake, he will be reelected, if he cannot, Kerry will win.

[Shark 0]

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Tell that to the platoon who completed the mission.

So are you telling me that U.S troops are highly motivated? You know better than me, but I don´t think so.

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Looks like the Spanish in their haste to pull out of combat are still being targeted by terrorist.

Actually we were never in combat, we just were there for some humanitarian bullshit. But yes, we are still targetted by terrorist. Just tonight eight terrorist were captured when plotting to blow up the national courthouse. So what is your point? Do you think that the U.S is any safer because it is still fighting an illegal war? don´t you think that there is many, many terrorists plotting against the U.S at this very same moment, and you may end up finding it out too late? How naive!!!!

Just for the record, Aznar screwed up following Bush and Blair in their texans adventure. Zapatero rectified by getting the troops out of there regardless of terrorist attacks, that was promised way before 3/11. See, if you greatly screw up, the proper thing is to rectified regardless of your ego. It takes a big man to do that. The other option is the childish attitude to keep trying to make right the wrong.
At this moment all the U.S is doing in Irak is trying to get either a WMD or a link to AlQuaeda or recognition of the Iraqui citizens, despite not getting any of them for over a year... and the deadline is November 2nd.

Typical Eurowhimp response. Bottom line is that Al Qaeda is out to get you and they must be stopped. I hope for your sake they are not able to attack again. If so, someone will have to save the euro-ass.

[pajarito 0]

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Everybody, wants to have freedom, but at what cost?
Would you sacrifice your life and your family´s life only so you and your kids can vote, or speak against the government?

Yes.

[Botellines 0]

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Yes.

So would i, and like you i wouldn´t sacriface my family (i assume you wouldn´t because you crossed those words). The issue here is that the U.S didn´t ask them, and the result is that ENTIRE iraki families are dying for the american dream of freedom.
See, you feel like i do and like all the irakies do, yet why do you still support this war?

[rhino 0]

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The issue here is that the U.S didn´t ask them, and the result is that ENTIRE iraki families are dying for the american dream of freedom.

American families are being led to the slaughter as well.. Soldiers families are being forced to goto food banks to feed their families. While they themselves are at war... This administration is allowing it...

[christelsabine 1]

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If so, someone will have to save the euro-ass.

Hmm. Yup.
Has to be someone safe enough so save his own. We have to check the list closely.

Get real.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[wmw999 2,148]

Good post, by someone with lots of room to judge the situation. I would hope that their commanding officer, in sending them out possibly without the right equipment, deserved the amount of trust that the army decrees he be given.

I read the Army creed again this weekend at the airshow in Houston -- it's what you want from a warrior. And warrior isn't what most of us want in the citites every day -- good thing we're not all alike, isn't it?

Wendy W.

There is nothing more dangerous than breaking a basic safety rule and getting away with it. It removes fear of the consequences and builds false confidence. (tbrown)

[Botellines 0]

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Typical Eurowhimp response.

What would be the US-Macho-Man response? oh yeah: "Let´s nuke them from the air, they look diferent"

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Bottom line is that Al Qaeda is out to get you and they must be stopped. I hope for your sake they are not able to attack again. If so, someone will have to save the euro-ass.

I hope, you don´t mean the U.S. I can see how well they are doing in Irak.
Just give us a nuke and we will detonate it in the center of Madrid, then the U.S or alqaueda can take the credit for it, it doesn´t matter.

[pajarito 0]

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So would i, and like you i wouldn´t sacriface my family (i assume you wouldn´t because you crossed those words). The issue here is that the U.S didn´t ask them, and the result is that ENTIRE iraki families are dying for the american dream of freedom.
See, you feel like i do and like all the irakies do, yet why do you still support this war?

The cold hard fact of the matter is that it was in our national interest to do so. Primarily, I agree for reasons concerning our national security and not for the gain of their freedom. I happen to believe the reports, given Iraq’s past reputation involving us, which stated Iraq’s WMD intentions and future plans even though none were found. I fully believe that they posed a continuing threat to our safety as well as the safety of other nations around the globe. They were a rogue nation hell bent on destroying us, anyone associated with us, and many of its own people. Freedom for the Iraqis is a long term benefit for us and them. They get to be free and democratic and we get to enjoy a less hostile and more stable government in the region which is less likely to attack or help someone else attack us here in the States. I understand that it’s a long process but that we will all benefit in the end and the world will eventually be a safer place with Saddam out of power.

[pajarito 0]

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I would hope that their commanding officer, in sending them out possibly without the right equipment, deserved the amount of trust that the army decrees he be given.

For their sake, I hope so too. Unfortunately, I've known more than a few who didn't deserve that kind of trust. However, an order is an order and must be followed unless it is unlawful. That's not to say that there aren't sometimes creative ways to CYA and still get the job done. Always gotta be thinking!

[Skyrad 0]

LMAO!

When an author is too meticulous about his style, you may presume that his mind is frivolous and his content flimsy.
Lucius Annaeus Seneca

[penniless 0]

There have been remarkably few mutinies in our armed forces, and in general the troops involved are severly punished to act as an example. This is followed by a quiet investigation of why they disobeyed. In general a legitimate problem has been found somewhere up the chain of command.

[pajarito 0]

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In general a legitimate problem has been found somewhere up the chain of command.

Problems that may or may not exist up the chain of command do not exonerate troops from disobeying lawful orders. There are always problems within the ranks and up the chain of command. However, there is also a battle currently being fought which must be won. You voice your complaints appropriately, pick up your rifle, move out, and draw fire.

[kallend 1,648]

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In general a legitimate problem has been found somewhere up the chain of command.

Problems that may or may not exist up the chain of command do not exonerate troops from disobeying lawful orders. There are always problems within the ranks and up the chain of command. However, there is also a battle currently being fought which must be won. You voice your complaints appropriately, pick up your rifle, move out, and draw fire.

Not disagreeing with you, but one wonders why things are allowed to reach the point that well trained troops disobey an order. Someone must have seen that there was a problem brewing well before it reached this point.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.