crozby 0 #76 August 20, 2004 QuoteOut of FEAR of another attack. Not so. They elected a different government because they were pissed off with the behaviour of the existing one. They were pissed off with them because they took them to war in Iraq even though a minority of Spanish supported it. To be sure the bombings re-awakened their anger for that decision, but more than that they were livid that their government tried to cover up the fact that Al Quaeda had bombed them. Think about it. If a significant majority of the US had been against Bush's war and he did it anyway and a few days before the next election al Queda bombed the US and Bush then tried to blame it on some American group for political gain, would you guys vote Bush back in just to stick two fingers up at Al Queda? Or would you throw him out for taking you into a war that you didn;t want to be in, resulting in domestic bombing that wouldn't have otherwise happened, topped off with a bunch of lying to you, plus a whole load of other more mundain domestic shit that you didn;t want more of anyway. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #77 August 20, 2004 >So you are glad that the terroists were able to elect your next leader for >you?...Thats funny. Well, heck, Al Qaeda said they want Bush elected again. You gonna bow down to the terrorists and elect their candidate? You really want to support them? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #78 August 20, 2004 Ron, considering that Spain has only two main political parties (like the US), if we do what you suggest (a knee-jerk reaction to terrorist attacks) it would be very easy for the terrorist to influence elections. Example, Kerry win the next elections, and the terrorist want him to stay, they don´t want Bush Jr to be in command, so they only have to say that they want Kerry to go and put a bomb a week before the elections. Then you will have a knee-jerk reaction and say, hell no. You want Kerry to go, then Kerry is staying. Terrorist win. If you are honest with yourself (and you may very well be in private) you will admit that Aznar as president of Spain suits your agenda much better than Zapatero. Aznar is a republican (or the spanish equivalent) who supported the war and is ready to turn his back on Europe to bow down to the U.S. I can see why you prefer him rather than Zapatero. But the best thing for Spain (maybe not for the republican part of the U.S) is to be part of Europe (even a small part) rather than being a small puppet of the U.S. interests. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #79 August 20, 2004 Quotebut the material I was reading was that it there was a law against there being a soccer team in Iraq. Bull puckey. Iraq Football Assn. member of FIFA since 1950 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #80 August 20, 2004 QuoteRon, considering that Spain has only two main political parties (like the US), if we do what you suggest (a knee-jerk reaction to terrorist attacks) it would be very easy for the terrorist to influence elections. Example, Kerry win the next elections, and the terrorist want him to stay, they don´t want Bush Jr to be in command, so they only have to say that they want Kerry to go and put a bomb a week before the elections. Then you will have a knee-jerk reaction and say, hell no. You want Kerry to go, then Kerry is staying. Terrorist win. Not that easy...You have to take into account the anger the US will have. any plan like that could backfire here in the US. QuoteIf you are honest with yourself (and you may very well be in private) you will admit that Aznar as president of Spain suits your agenda much better than Zapatero. I have no agenda. The US has agenda. And I think both canidates have the same agenda when it comes to terrorism...However I only think one will actually DO anything about it. QuoteAznar is a republican (or the spanish equivalent) who supported the war and is ready to turn his back on Europe to bow down to the U.S. I can see why you prefer him rather than Zapatero. But the best thing for Spain (maybe not for the republican part of the U.S) is to be part of Europe (even a small part) rather than being a small puppet of the U.S. interests. No offense, but Spains support, while nice, was not really that much. I can understand you guys not wanting a guy that took you to war....Look here in the US..Same thing. Hell I didn't WANT to go to war, but I did see a need based on the intel at the time. But your elections were reported to be quite close till after the bomb attacks...then it was a landslide in favor of the guy that the terrorist wanted. What does that look like to you? I can understand that there were other factors...But can you see how it looks like you played right into the hands of the terrorists?"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
turtlespeed 212 #81 August 20, 2004 Quote Example, Kerry win the next elections, and the terrorist want him to stay, they don´t want Bush Jr to be in command, so they only have to say that they want Kerry to go and put a bomb a week before the elections. Then you will have a knee-jerk reaction and say, hell no. You want Kerry to go, then Kerry is staying. Terrorist win. Heh this sounds familiar - oh yeah - here it is . . . from the "Princess Bride" ***Really? In that case, I challenge you to a battle of wits. VIZZINI For the Princess? The Man In Black nods. VIZZINI To the death? Another nod. VIZZINI I accept. MAN IN BLACK Good. Then pour the wine. As Vizzini fills the goblets with the dark red liquid, the Man In Black pulls a small packet from his clothing, handing it to Fizzini. MAN IN BLACK Inhale this, but do not touch. VIZZINI (doing it) I smell nothing. MAN IN BLACK (taking the packet back) What you do not smell is called iocane powder. It is odorless, tasteless, dissolves instantly in liquid, and is among the more deadlier poisons known to man. VIZZINI Hmm. CUT TO: VIZZINI, watching excitedly as the Man In Black takes the goblets, turns his back. A moment later, he turns again, faces Vizzini, drops the iocane packet. It is now empty. The Man In Black rotates the goblets in a little shell game maneuver then puts one glass in front of Vizzini, the other in front of himself. MAN IN BLACK All right: where is the poison? The battle of wits has begun. It ends when you decide and we both drink, and find out who is right and who is dead. VIZZINI But it's so simple. All I have to do is divine from what I know of you. Are you the sort of man who would put the poison into his own goblet, or his enemy's? He studies the Man In Black now. VIZZINI Now, a clever man would put the poison into his own goblet, because he would know that only a great fool would reach for what he was given. I'm not a great fool, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But you must have known I was not a great fool; you would have counted on it, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me. MAN IN BLACK (And now there's a trace of nervousness beginning) You've made your decision then7 VIZZINI Not remotely. Because iocane comes from Australia, as everyone knows. And Australia is entirely peopled with criminals. And criminals are used to having people not trust them, as you are not trusted by me. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. MAN IN BLACK Truly, you have a dizzying intellect. VIZZINI Wait till I get going! Where was I? MAN IN BLACK Australia. VIZZINI Yes -- Australia, and you must have suspected I would have known the powder's origin, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me. MAN IN BLACK (very nervous) You're just stalling now. VIZZINI (cackling) You'd like to think that, wouldn't you? (stares at the Man in Black) You've beaten my giant, which means you're exceptionally strong. So, you could have put the poison in your own goblet, trusting on your strength to save you. So I can clearly not choose the wine in front of you. But, you've also bested my Spaniard which means you must have studied. And in studying, you must have learned that man is mortal so you would have put the poison as far from yourself as possible, so I can clearly not choose the wine in front of me. As Vizzini's pleasure has been growing throughout, the Man In Black's has been fast disappearing. MAN IN BLACK You're trying to trick me into giving away something -- it won't work -- VIZZINI (triumphant) It has worked -- you've given everything away -- I know where the poison is. MAN IN BLACK (fool's courage) Then make your choice. VIZZINI I will. And I choose -- And suddenly he stops, points at something behind the Man In Black. VIZZINI -- what in the world can that be? CUT TO: THE MAN IN BLACK, turning around, looking. MAN IN BLACK What? Where? I don't see anything. CUT TO: VIZZINI, busily switching the goblets while the Man In Black has his head turned. VIZZINI Oh, well, I-I could have sworn I saw something. No matter. The Man In Black turns to face him again. Vizzini starts to laugh. MAN IN BLACK What's so funny? VIZZINI I'll tell you in a minute. First, let's drink -- me from my glass, and you from yours. And he picks up his goblet. The Man In Black picks up the one in front of him. As they both start to drink, Vizzini hesitates a moment. Then, allowing the Man In Black to drink first, he swallows his wine. MAN IN BLACK You guessed wrong. VIZZINI (roaring with laughter) You only think I guessed wrong -- (louder now) -- that's what's so funny! I switched glasses when your back was turned. You fool. CUT TO: THE MAN IN BLACK. There's nothing he can say. He just sits there. CUT TO: VIZZINI, watching him. VIZZINI You fell victim to one of the classic blunders. The most famous is "Never get involved in a land war in Asia." But only slightly less well known is this: "Never go in against a Sicilian when death is on the line." He laughs and roars and cackles and whoops and is in all ways quite cheery until he falls over dead.I'm not usually into the whole 3-way thing, but you got me a little excited with that. - Skymama BTR #1 / OTB^5 Official #2 / Hellfish #408 / VSCR #108/Tortuga/Orfun Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #82 August 20, 2004 QuoteHeh this sounds familiar - oh yeah - here it is . . . from the "Princess Bride" I love that movie."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Botellines 0 #83 August 20, 2004 Quote Not that easy...You have to take into account the anger the US will have. any plan like that could backfire here in the US. And don´t you think it could have backfired here too? Had Aznar admitted it was alquaeda instead of blaming ETA for political gain, he could have turned a pretty even election into a win for the right (people was upset here as well). What turned people against Aznar was beyond the terrorists control. It wasn´t the terrorist attack per se, but the subsequent lieing and media manipulation of the government. QuoteI have no agenda. The US has agenda. And I think both canidates have the same agenda when it comes to terrorism...However I only think one will actually DO anything about it. Fair enough. I do think that although Bush is doing things, they are not the right things. Quote No offense, but Spains support, while nice, was not really that much. No offense taken. I do know that Spanish support was small, and to be honest I wish had been smaller. The problem with our withdrawal was not the withdrawal itself, but the timing, and the perception of the coalition of the willing it would give to the rest of the world. QuoteI can understand you guys not wanting a guy that took you to war....Look here in the US..Same thing. Hell I didn't WANT to go to war, but I did see a need based on the intel at the time. Based on the intel you have know, do you still think it was a wise idea to start a war back then? QuoteBut your elections were reported to be quite close till after the bomb attacks...then it was a landslide in favor of the guy that the terrorist wanted. What does that look like to you? I can understand that there were other factors...But can you see how it looks like you played right into the hands of the terrorists? Yes, but as i said, here too it could have backfired. And the terrorist know that. Had Aznar not lied to us he may very well be in charge today. Had Aznar succesfully lied to us he may very well be in charge today. Hadn´t there been any terrorist attack, Zapatero may have won. They know that what actually happened was a possibility among others for they could not foresee the rest of the factors. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #84 August 20, 2004 QuoteAnd don´t you think it could have backfired here too? It COULD have, but since AQ made a statement saying more would follow if Spain didn't remove its troops, and Anzar not planning on removing the troops. And then Anzar losing what was going to be a tight race. Well it looks like the population played right into AQ's plan. QuoteWhat turned people against Aznar was beyond the terrorists control. It wasn´t the terrorist attack per se, but the subsequent lieing and media manipulation of the government. AQ had a plan...They put that plan into motion...They got the effect they wanted. AQ's plan worked. You allowed them to decide the future of your government. You traded your vote for a promise from a terrorist. This just renforces their position and makes them MORE likely to push you around. QuoteFair enough. I do think that although Bush is doing things, they are not the right things. I think given the inteligence he had at the time it was the right move. And so did many Democrats INCLUDING Kerry,Gore. "We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country" --Gore, September 23,2003 "He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983."--Sandy Berger, Feb 18, 1998. "Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime...now he is miscalculating America's response to his continued decit and his consistant grasp for weapons of mass destruction...So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real" --John F. Kerry, Jan 23, 2003. You are free to disagree...But most here thought he was a threat, and our congress gave Bush power to use force...Only in hindsite do they oppose his moves...They supported him until it was no longer popular to do so. QuoteBased on the intel you have know, do you still think it was a wise idea to start a war back then? No, but I don't have the luxury of knowing the future...I can only make choices based off of the intel I have...As Bush, Kerry, Gore, Clinton, Bergger all did. If we find more WMD's or we find he sold them to terroists...Would you admit it was the right thing to do? QuoteThey know that what actually happened was a possibility among others for they could not foresee the rest of the factors But it was still their plan, and it did work."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #85 August 20, 2004 Anzar was way behind in the polls before the attack. Your diatribe is the same as if you decide to have a steak for dinner, I punch you in the stomach and say you better get a steak, then you order a steak for dinner and I claim my action forced you to make that choice. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #86 August 20, 2004 QuoteAnzar was way behind in the polls before the attack Wrong... QuoteAznar lost his job after the train bombings in Madrid and new Socialist Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero hoped for a strong result to dispel the impression that he won power on more than a protest vote. He got a narrow win -- 43.3 percent compared to 41.3 percent for the opposition Popular Party. QuoteZapatero won an upset victory in the March 14 elections just three days after the deadly Madrid train bombings. Aznar was not seeking a third term, but his handpicked successor, Mariano Rajoy, headed the highly favored conservative ticket. QuotePolitical observers are predicting a victory for the ruling conservative Popular Party over the main opposition Socialist Party. QuoteThree days after the March 11 train bombings that killed 190 people, Spanish voters ousted the ruling Popular Party in favor of Zapatero's underdog Socialists And its not the first time its happend... QuoteMADRID, Spain (CNN)-- Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar holds a slight lead over Socialist challenger Joaquin Almunia in the final days of campaigning ahead of Sunday's general election.... ....Basque separatists cast shadow over campaign Violence by the Basque separatist group ETA has also become an issue in the campaign. The ETA claimed responsibility Wednesday for two deadly car bombings since it ended a 14-month ceasefire in December. It is also suspected of setting off a powerful bomb Monday in the Basque city of San Sebastian. Two police officers and five civilians were wounded in the attack. Almunia has accused Anzar's government of not doing enough to keep the Basque peace process alive. This time it did work. Edit to add a good set of quotes *** MADRID, Spain (CNN) -- A document published months before national elections reveals al Qaeda planned to separate Spain from its allies by carrying out terror attacks. "We think the Spanish government will not stand more than two blows, or three at the most, before it will be forced to withdraw because of the public pressure on it," the al Qaeda document says. "If its forces remain after these blows, the victory of the Socialist Party will be almost guaranteed -- and the withdrawal of Spanish forces will be on its campaign manifesto.""No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #87 August 20, 2004 I was wrong in asserting he was way behind. And for that matter that it was Aznar, since actually he wasn't running. But. QuoteIndependent polls carried out on Wednesday, the day before the bombings, showed the Socialists ahead with a slight majority. Read this article. It has a good complete analysis of the factors involved. The terrorists may believe that they affected the elections, and those who wish to put blame on anti-war sentiment may believe it as well. But that's oversimplification of a complex situation. http://www.upi.com/view.cfm?StoryID=20040316-014634-4441r Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #88 August 21, 2004 QuoteYou think I give a rats ass about whether or not some d###b on the internet respects me just because I slammed his beloved president? By your reaction to PJ's comments, you obviously do give a rat's ass about what he has to say. People who truly don't give a rat's ass just keep scrolling the page. And he's right -- equating Bush and SH puts you out on the fringes. So does calling people "dweebs" because their opinions vary from yours. People out on the fringe just don't get much respect. QuoteIt's time to go play volleyball, have a life and not worrying about what others think about me on the internet. Yes, you can learn to actually not give a rat's ass about people's opinions with which you disagree. Maybe the volleyball will help. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #89 August 22, 2004 QuoteNo, if anyone raped your son, you would kill the beast that did it. And if you saw your neighbourg´s son get raped, you would do everything you could to protect yours. If not, sorry, you don´t deserve to have any kids. Hey wasn't you saying that a kid in that situation should be considered lucky? Now what change of heart? Clicky to go back not long ago.... After all they all tested "forbidden delights""According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #90 August 22, 2004 QuoteQuote QuotePhillyKev can't enter that match. He has "asthma". Dude, don't be an ass. - Jim That's like telling a maggot not to squirm. Funny thing is that you can compare him to a maggot, and not even receive the same treatment Well, everything is biased after all....."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #91 August 22, 2004 QuoteWell, everything is biased after all..... Dude, just come out and tell it like it is: - if you're a non-consevative on this forum, you get a TON of leeway in making personal attacks. Example: comparing someone to a maggot. That one was just too clever for the mods I guess . . . - if you're a conservative on this forum, you get very little leeway in making personal attacks. Just ask Vinny. Other Example: I got "warned" just a couple of weeks ago for simply pointing out some liberal's personal attack on me. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
b1jercat 0 #92 August 22, 2004 Why don't you cry a river? You are nobetter than anyone else, even with your perverted views of the world. blues jerry Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #93 August 22, 2004 Quoteeven with your perverted views of the world. Case in point . . . . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #94 August 22, 2004 >>even with your perverted views of the world. >Case in point . . . Your opinion is stupid, perverted, absurd etc - attack on someone's words. YOU are stupid, perverted, absurd etc - personal attack. If you can't tell the difference, expect to have trouble posting here. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #95 August 22, 2004 Quote>>even with your perverted views of the world. >Case in point . . . Your opinion is stupid, perverted, absurd etc - attack on someone's words. YOU are stupid, perverted, absurd etc - personal attack. If you can't tell the difference, expect to have trouble posting here. Oh yea, I see that difference clearly -- and a whole lot of other "differences" as well . . . . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,435 #96 August 22, 2004 >Oh yea, I see that difference clearly -- Good. Please use that knowledge in your posts in the future. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
skydyvr 0 #97 August 23, 2004 Quote>Oh yea, I see that difference clearly -- Good. Please use that knowledge in your posts in the future. Care to show me where I haven't used that knowledge in the past? You've warned me enough, so coming up with MATCHING infractions ought to be a snap. I want to point out how silly it is NOT to use INTENT as a guide to fair moderation rather than a meaningless set of grammar rules, i.e., "you are perverted" vs. "your ideas are perverted" or whatever. You have created a "difference without a distinction" when you allow insults to stand because they are wrapped within a certain grammatical framework. . . =(_8^(1) Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #98 August 23, 2004 QuoteDude, just come out and tell it like it is: - if you're a non-consevative on this forum, you get a TON of leeway in making personal attacks. Example: comparing someone to a maggot. That one was just too clever for the mods I guess . . . - if you're a conservative on this forum, you get very little leeway in making personal attacks. Just ask Vinny. Other Example: I got "warned" just a couple of weeks ago for simply pointing out some liberal's personal attack on me. Amen...It is very easy to see that there is a bias FOR the left."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ron 7 #99 August 23, 2004 QuoteRead this article. It has a good complete analysis of the factors involved. The terrorists may believe that they affected the elections, and those who wish to put blame on anti-war sentiment may believe it as well. But that's oversimplification of a complex situation. ALL politics is an oversimplification of a complex situation. Perception is reality. People don't have much use for more information than will fit into sound bites.... Spain gave into the terrorists....The terrorists wanted something, and they did things to get it, and they got what they wanted."No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334 Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
juanesky 0 #100 August 23, 2004 QuoteQuote>>even with your perverted views of the world. >Case in point . . . Your opinion is stupid, perverted, absurd etc - attack on someone's words. YOU are stupid, perverted, absurd etc - personal attack. If you can't tell the difference, expect to have trouble posting here. Oh yea, I see that difference clearly -- and a whole lot of other "differences" as well . . . Most likely I'll get banned for this, but that is like an asshole screaming to be clean all the time."According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
