piisfish 136 #1 June 28, 2004 So, just a little poll to check who saw the movie and can give personal opinion on the movie. Please do not just flame MM or the people who might support him. Do not flame GWB and the supporters either. The intention of this thread is constructive critique on a movie. I have not seen it yet, but I will certainly will. I even might be dissapointed, who knows...scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Nightingale 0 #2 June 28, 2004 anyone who likes the film has got to be more than a bit disturbed, since it's definitely not a pleasant thing to watch. I've seen it, and I fall under the category of "glad I saw it." Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
piisfish 136 #3 June 28, 2004 thanks for your pertinent remarks, Kris. I hope to see it soon and be able to say the same as you do.scissors beat paper, paper beat rock, rock beat wingsuit - KarlM Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
SpeedRacer 1 #4 June 29, 2004 QuoteAnyone seen F911 ?? I have a canopy made from F111. Does that count? Speed Racer -------------------------------------------------- Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #5 June 29, 2004 I've shut up every Bush supporter I have known asking them to debate these facts: 42% of his first 8 months in office were spent on vacation, away from the White House. Yes, he may have had Tony Blair stop by...but you would think that a first time Pres would need more time getting used to the beltway instead of spending the time on the ranch. Seven more minutes of My Pet Goat. You would think the president would want to react to being told our country is under attack...after all, he is the commander in chief._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #6 June 29, 2004 I saw the film this afternoon. The thing that really struck me about the movie was how restrained Michael Moore seemed to be compared to his previous films. I had gone into the movie expecting to see quite a bit o' shenanigans, but the majority of the film does not have his classic ambush stunts. For the most part, Moore presents a selective gathering of facts to make his case. He makes no bones about not being "fair and balanced" and it's obvious from the start that he has a clear agenda in producing the film, but it's not until the second half of the film that you find out what the true agenda is. ANYONE that downplays the film solely on it's very capable critique of the G. W. Bush administration probably didn't watch the entire film or maybe didn't in reality see the movie at all. The documentary also tells the very true and tragic story of one mother that lost her son in Iraq. When we first see this mother, she is very proud her son is in the military and going to war. As the film progresses, we learn her son has died and her attempts at some sort of closure in Liberty Square, across the street from the White House, is sad as she meets with a woman from Iraq and another woman. The other woman is an obvious GWB/Iraq war supporter and they exchange words. This is very powerful documentary film making. Screw the politics of it. I really don't give a flying fudge what you think of that, but this -is- a very powerful documentary of the highest caliber. It's safe to assume this will win an Oscar. Its real message, beyond the GWB bashfest . . . war sucks and the poor usually fight the battles for the benefit of the wealthy. It's a compelling argument well made.quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #7 June 29, 2004 QuoteI've shut up every Bush supporter I have known asking them to debate these facts: 42% of his first 8 months in office were spent on vacation, away from the White House. Yes, he may have had Tony Blair stop by...but you would think that a first time Pres would need more time getting used to the beltway instead of spending the time on the ranch. Seven more minutes of My Pet Goat. You would think the president would want to react to being told our country is under attack...after all, he is the commander in chief. When is a President ever on vacation? You think being away from the White House means a President isn't working? You believe when a business person is traveling they are on vacation? More mudslinging BULLSHIT from the left. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
billvon 2,478 #8 June 29, 2004 >When is a President ever on vacation? You think being away >from the White House means a President isn't working? Y'know, I answer email/check software releases/fill out timecards/approve changes all the time when I'm on vacation. I can even do a significant part of my job almost anywhere in the US. Yet I, like most people in the US, would get fired if I spent nearly half my time at boogies and away from work, because people work for me and I have to talk to them on occasion. I can only imagine the shrill screams of righteous rage we'd hear from the right if a democrat had been elected and he wasn't at the White House a good portion of the time. Our president isn't a coder, who can do his job effectively anywhere in the US with a laptop and a modem. He's the leader of the administrative branch of our country. There are reasons why people work at the White House instead of at home, and there are reasons that most of our government is in one place - because physically being there matters. I don't think that being on vacation almost half the time has caused all the troubles he's had; there are far worse problems in the current administration than that. But to claim the president doesn't have to be at the white house? And that being on vacation isn't really being on vacation? That's apologia taken to a new level. > You believe when a business person is traveling they are on vacation? No. And if Bush was in Iraq most of the time, talking to leaders there, you'd have a great excuse for him. But if that business person you describe spent his days on a ranch riding horses, no IRS agent in the country would let him write off his "business expenses" incurred while doing that. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #9 June 29, 2004 QuoteI had gone into the movie expecting to see quite a bit o' shenanigans Like the kite scene? Yeah, that wasn't the most gross and far-fetched lie to have ever graced the silver screen. That scene was bad even for a Michael Moron film. The sad thing is all the unintelligent people that see this film that can't think for themselves are going to believe everything in this film as 100% fact. Already I've seen people (in this thread even) bringing lies in the film to their friends trying to debate them. Sad. Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #10 June 29, 2004 QuoteQuoteI've shut up every Bush supporter I have known asking them to debate these facts: 42% of his first 8 months in office were spent on vacation, away from the White House. Yes, he may have had Tony Blair stop by...but you would think that a first time Pres would need more time getting used to the beltway instead of spending the time on the ranch. Seven more minutes of My Pet Goat. You would think the president would want to react to being told our country is under attack...after all, he is the commander in chief. When is a President ever on vacation? You think being away from the White House means a President isn't working? You believe when a business person is traveling they are on vacation? More mudslinging BULLSHIT from the left. I think Bill did a good job of debating you on this already, but I will add a point or two. In the movie someone asked GW about all of the vacation time and his response was roughly "I, uh, will, uh, be making a decision or two that, uh, we will be letting you know about, uh, sometime." Yes, in one shot they even show Blair on vacation with him - so they must have been talking policy and just about Aug 6th 2001 he was given the report saying OBL was planning on attacking the US with airplanes while he was on vacation (even show a s supposed picture of him meeting the people delivering the official report) so I am sure he read it and reacted. However, the majority of the White House films show GW playing golf, fishing, cutting down trees and talking about how his dog was chasing wilflife. My company is not allowed to give out commision or a bonus to anyone in my department due to education laws. However, we hold a "meeting" once a year in a really nice place...last year was Cancun and this year will be Hawaii. To make it "official" you have to meet once a day for at least an hour..which is what they do...but it is an all expense paid trip for you and a guest. This is only for the best people in the company and there is no denial that it is a paid vacation. I could argue that I would be making decisions during that time and even be able to write off expenses....but it is still vacation. Also, it wasn't Moore that came up with the 42% vacation time - it was the Washinton Post that originally broke that story._________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #11 June 29, 2004 Let's not forget that he had ZERO national experience before being elected. He might at least try to learn how the systerm works. But I guess when you just bully everyone around you into doing things your way, it doesn't much matter. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #12 June 29, 2004 Moore is so full of it that he included weekends in his numbers. He also apparently forget that many of these days were "working vacations " Are you going to actually claim the President isn't in constant contact with the White House, Senate, Advisors etc while on vacation? If I was on a vacation like Bush was, the IRS would have no problem with me and I can assure you they would have no problem with the President.Here are some pictures of Bush on "Vacation". This is nothing more than the usual left wing, bash Bush, babble. Anyone who thinks the President is not working has brought the bashing to a new level of rediculous. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #14 June 29, 2004 QuoteQuoteI had gone into the movie expecting to see quite a bit o' shenanigans Like the kite scene? Yeah, that wasn't the most gross and far-fetched lie to have ever graced the silver screen. That scene was bad even for a Michael Moron film. The sad thing is all the unintelligent people that see this film that can't think for themselves are going to believe everything in this film as 100% fact. Already I've seen people (in this thread even) bringing lies in the film to their friends trying to debate them. Sad. Reminds me of a child who goes to see Spiderman and comes out of the theater wanting a Spiderman costume. Or a Marilyn Manson fan who walks around with purple hair, tatoos and a ring thru their nose. No influence there. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
PhillyKev 0 #15 June 29, 2004 QuoteReminds me of a child who goes to see Spiderman and comes out of the theater wanting a Spiderman costume. Or a Marilyn Manson fan who walks around with purple hair, tatoos and a ring thru their nose. No influence there. Reminds me of someone who listens to a bunch of half truths and fabricated stories during the state of the union and then supports going to war. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
ChasingBlueSky 0 #16 June 29, 2004 Moore didn't come up with the numbers for vacation - he was quoting the Washington Post. Did you see the NY Times article about the fact checking associated with this movie?_________________________________________ you can burn the land and boil the sea, but you can't take the sky from me.... I WILL fly again..... Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #17 June 29, 2004 QuoteMoore didn't come up with the numbers for vacation - he was quoting the Washington Post. Did you see the NY Times article about the fact checking associated with this movie? It's a deliberate strategy - Bush sets the example of not bothering with facts (so his untruths can't be called lies, just bad intel), and his disciples follow like sheep.... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
freeflydrew 0 #18 June 29, 2004 didn't the film show powell or rumsfeld or rice stating before 9/11 that Iraq didn't have any weapons? That's funny that no one talks about that. Bash Moore, bash the movie... don't address the specific things that are undeniable or unquestionable... He has footage of of so many different things that you can't deny, yet no one wants to address them! It's so weird. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Gravitymaster 0 #19 June 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteMoore didn't come up with the numbers for vacation - he was quoting the Washington Post. Did you see the NY Times article about the fact checking associated with this movie? It's a deliberate strategy - Bush sets the example of not bothering with facts (so his untruths can't be called lies, just bad intel), and his disciples follow like sheep. Is that like the bad intel you had on Niger uranium? Or are you now willing to admit you lied to everyone on this site? Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
tunaplanet 0 #20 June 30, 2004 Quoteand his disciples follow like sheep. "Hi pot, I'm the kettle and I'm black!" Forty-two Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kallend 1,683 #21 June 30, 2004 QuoteQuoteQuoteMoore didn't come up with the numbers for vacation - he was quoting the Washington Post. Did you see the NY Times article about the fact checking associated with this movie? It's a deliberate strategy - Bush sets the example of not bothering with facts (so his untruths can't be called lies, just bad intel), and his disciples follow like sheep. Is that like the bad intel you had on Niger uranium? Or are you now willing to admit you lied to everyone on this site? How can it be a lie, it is verified by a very reliable source... The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one. Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #22 June 30, 2004 Quote Our president isn't a coder, who can do his job effectively anywhere in the US with a laptop and a modem. He's the leader of the administrative branch of our country. Get it straight: he's the leader of the executive branch. Large parts of his job include visiting other nations and heads of state, and doing diplomatic work. They by definition must be done outside the White House. And why do you think Air Force One is equipped like a traveling White House, and has all kinds of communications equipment? It's specifically so that he can accomplish work while not at the White House. I don't know how you came up with this simplistic notion that if the president isn't in the Oval Office, he's not fulfilling his duties. I guess you're used to a president who considered it his duty to fill the mouths of interns. For that, yes, he mostly was found in the Oval Office. --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
peacefuljeffrey 0 #23 June 30, 2004 QuoteMoore didn't come up with the numbers for vacation - he was quoting the Washington Post. Did you see the NY Times article about the fact checking associated with this movie? Ohhhh, the Washington Post... That changes everything. We know that they never slant things to the left... --Jeffrey "With tha thoughts of a militant mind... Hard line, hard line after hard line!" Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
quade 3 #24 June 30, 2004 QuoteIs that like the bad intel you had on Niger uranium? Or are you now willing to admit you lied to everyone on this site? I'm confused. Did someone find and publish proof that Nigeria was trying to sell Yellow Cake to Iraq?quade - The World's Most Boring Skydiver Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
kmcguffee 0 #25 June 30, 2004 Quote42% of his first 8 months in office were spent on vacation, away from the White House. Have you seen how those numbers were figured? Fat Bastard counted all of the weekends that Bush was at Camp David as "vacation". If you take out those weekends you come up with 13% "away from the White House". Fat Bastard is a joke. I can't believe people are stupid enough to believe what this guy says. Look at this sight for some real information: http://fahrenheit_fact_check.blogspot.com/ Moore is also a Democrat and not an Independent as he claims. From the Smoking Gun: QuoteJUNE 28--Prior to last week's Washington, D.C. premiere of "Fahrenheit 9/11," Michael Moore denied that the new documentary represents his de facto endorsement of John Kerry. "I am an Independent," the filmmaker told reporters. "I'm not a member of the Democratic party." Which is not exactly correct. New York City Board of Elections records show that Moore, 50, registered to vote in Gotham in 1992, checking off "Democratic" as his party affiliation Some Fat Bastard quotes that will make you proud: Quote"In Liverpool, he paused to contemplate the epicenters of evil in the modern world: ‘It's all part of the same ball of wax, right? The oil companies, Israel, Halliburton…We, the United States of America, are culpable in committing so many acts of terror and bloodshed that we had better get a clue about the culture of violence in which we have been active participants...Don't be like us,’ he told a crowd in Berlin. ‘You've got to stand up, right? You've got to be brave.’ "In an open letter to the German people in Die Zeit, Moore asked, ‘Should such an ignorant people lead the world?’ In an interview with a Japanese newspaper, Moore helped citizens of that country understand why the United States went to war in Iraq: ‘The motivation for war is simple. The U.S. government started the war with Iraq in order to make it easy for U.S. corporations to do business in other countries. They intend to use cheap labor in those countries, which will make Americans rich.’ ‘The Iraqis who have risen up against the occupation are not `insurgents' or `terrorists' or `The Enemy.' They are the REVOLUTION, the Minutemen, and their numbers will grow — and they will win.’ It really awes me that so many people are willing to believe this idiot. "Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin Quote Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
