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Riger needed to help completing project

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Recognize there is a big difference between a senior rigger who got their rating last month at Dave's and a master rigger that got their rating in 1985 but has attended every PIA symposium and worked for 4 manufactures.:S Everyone seems to think the word 'rigger' is magic. It starts as a license to learn.
I'm old for my age.
Terry Urban
D-8631
FAA DPRE

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councilman24

Recognize there is a big difference between a senior rigger who got their rating last month at Dave's and a master rigger that got their rating in 1985 but has attended every PIA symposium and worked for 4 manufactures.:S Everyone seems to think the word 'rigger' is magic. It starts as a license to learn.



I am not a rigger, not even close but looking for someone who knows what he is doing. I try not to mess with the stuff I don't know....

If the above desorption of master rigger is describing you and you are willing to help It would be great

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An open discussion here would probably be most helpful. Don't worry, your idea probably isn't anything new and nobody is going to steal it and get rich.

We're planning to install bluetooth trackers in all of our rigs this spring so it's going to be one of many. Also, there is a thread about putting a GPS dog tracker in a rig as well.

Depending on the size and weight of your idea the deployment bag is probably the best place for it.

-Michael

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hackish

An open discussion here would probably be most helpful. Don't worry, your idea probably isn't anything new and nobody is going to steal it and get rich.

We're planning to install bluetooth trackers in all of our rigs this spring so it's going to be one of many. Also, there is a thread about putting a GPS dog tracker in a rig as well.

Depending on the size and weight of your idea the deployment bag is probably the best place for it.

-Michael



I am no worried about someone stilling my idea and getting rich. In fact I posted about it here some time ago but people tried to convince me that this is very unnecessary. http://www.dropzone.com/cgi-bin/forum/gforum.cgi?post=4759769;#4759769

I hate to abandon projects in the middle so I would like to finish it. The device is fully finished /out of prototype phase/ and working. The coolest thing about it tha you don't need special receiver. It works with off the shelf walkie talkie an the range ground to ground is not bad - about 2 miles.

Deployment bag is my idea too but as I said I am not rigger so my idea might not be good

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councilman24

Recognize there is a big difference between a senior rigger who got their rating last month at Dave's and a master rigger that got their rating in 1985 but has attended every PIA symposium and worked for 4 manufactures.:S Everyone seems to think the word 'rigger' is magic. It starts as a license to learn.



There is also a difference between a master rigger that got their rating in 1985 but has attended every PIA symposium and worked for 4 manufactures and is a DPRE......and a master rigger who got their rating at Dave's last month who has been a rigger for barely 3 years and 75% of their required pack jobs are actually them signing off on students that they supervised at various rigging courses.

Another big difference is that senior riggers are not authorized to do alterations (like attaching gadgets to TSO'd equipment) and masters are, provided they get written authorization for it from the manufacturer or FSDO.

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RopeaDope

Another big difference is that senior riggers are not authorized to do alterations (like attaching gadgets to TSO'd equipment) and masters are, provided they get written authorization for it from the manufacturer or FSDO.



Is a main deployment bag part of the TSO?

-Michael

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RopeaDope

Another big difference is that senior riggers are not authorized to do alterations (like attaching gadgets to TSO'd equipment)



Some gadgets can be attached to TSO'd equipment without it being considered an alteration. For example, an instrument panel (for altimeter and stop watch) can be added to a chest reserve. Also, nobody minds if you mount an altimeter on a chest strap, even though that might interfere with handle pulls.

Mark

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Some gadgets can be attached to TSO'd equipment without it being considered an alteration.



Not legally.

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For example, an instrument panel (for altimeter and stop watch) can be added to a chest reserve.



Again, it would need approval to be legal.
But in the past it was simply done and there was never any oversight to speak of that refuted it.

You need to be a rigger to perform services or maintenance to parachute equipment.
Alterations are only allowed to be completed by a master rigger or someone under his/her supervision.
This means mains or reserves.

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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According to AC105-2C, dtd 1/2/1991:

- Para 9: "A certificated senior or master rigger may remove the pilot chute from an auxiliary/reserve parachute." Must be an assembly/disassembly thing, not an alteration, since a senior rigger may do it.

- Para 10: "Attachment of an instrument panel, knife sheath, or other material to the exterior of the parachute assembly is not considered an alteration."

Are there other references you might point me to?

Mark

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14 CFR part 65, section 65.129(d) "No certificated parachute rigger may - (d) Alter a parachute in a manner that is not specifically authorized by the Administrater or the manufacturer"

Or AC 105-2E dated 12/4/13

16. PARACHUTE ALTERATIONS.

a. Configuration. Alterations are changes to a parachute system configuration that the manufacturer or the manufacturer’s supervising FAA Aircraft Certification Office (ACO) has not approved. Examples include removing a deployment device from a reserve canopy, adding harness fittings to permit attaching an additional canopy, using nonstandard repair materials or techniques, or installation of a specific make/model AAD when the manufacturer has not authorized such changes. Changes that result in an approved configuration are considered repairs (see paragraph 15).

b. Approval. An alteration to an approved parachute system must be done in accordance with approved manuals and specifications and only by those with specific authorization to perform that alteration. Specific approval is not needed for the method of altering a non-TSO’d main parachute canopy. A person seeking authorization to alter an approved parachute system should proceed as follows:

(1) A person qualified to alter a parachute (as listed below) should contact his or her local FAA FSDO inspector to discuss the proposed alteration. The applicant should be prepared to show the inspector the nature of the alteration by using a sample assembly, sketch, or drawing and be prepared to discuss the nature of the tests necessary for showing that the altered parachute meets all applicable requirements.

(2) The inspector will review the proposal with the applicant and a plan of action will be agreed upon.

(3) The applicant will then prepare an application, in the format of a letter, addressed to the local FSDO. Attach all pertinent data. The data should include:
* A clear description of the alteration;
* Drawings, sketches, or photographs, if necessary;
* Information such as thread size, stitch, pattern, materials used, and location of altered components; and
* Some means of identifying the altered parachute (model and serial number).

(4) The FSDO aviation safety inspector (ASI) may send an alteration to the ACO for review if the ASI is not experienced in parachute alterations. When satisfied, the inspector will indicate approval by date stamping, signing, and placing the FSDO identification stamp on the letter of application.

(5) Only a certificated and appropriately rated master parachute rigger, a current manufacturer of approved parachute systems or components, or any other manufacturer the Administrator considers competent may perform alterations to approved parachutes.

My personal interpretation of this mumbo jumbo is that you can have a master rigger go through the motions and obtain written permission from the container manufacturers to alter their main deployment bags, or you can figure out how to attach the devise only to the main canopy and proceed however you want

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RopeaDope

My personal interpretation of this mumbo jumbo is that you can have a master rigger go through the motions and obtain written permission from the container manufacturers to alter their main deployment bags, or you can figure out how to attach the devise only to the main canopy and proceed however you want



"Parachute" is not the same as "canopy." The main parachute includes everything from the risers up -- no specific alteration approval from the manufacturer or FAA is required to alter the main risers or the main pilot chute, or anything in between.

Mark

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mark


"Parachute" is not the same as "canopy." The main parachute includes everything from the risers up -- no specific alteration approval from the manufacturer or FAA is required to alter the main risers or the main pilot chute, or anything in between.



So you are saying that a rigger can alter the length of the PC bridle to suit their needs without approval from the container manufacturer?

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According to AC105-2C, dtd 1/2/1991:

- Para 9: "A certificated senior or master rigger may remove the pilot chute from an auxiliary/reserve parachute." Must be an assembly/disassembly thing, not an alteration, since a senior rigger may do it.

- Para 10: "Attachment of an instrument panel, knife sheath, or other material to the exterior of the parachute assembly is not considered an alteration."

Are there other references you might point me to?



As you already know the AC is not regulatory; only the regulations are. Which BTW state that a person has to be rigger to work on a main or any other gear.
Furthermore, The appropriate certificate needs to used when doing so.
Also, the AC has bad references that conflict regulation as you well know.

See attached:

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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RopeaDope

So you are saying that a rigger can alter the length of the PC bridle to suit their needs without approval from the container manufacturer?



That's right. Manufacturer approval is not required for a rigger to change the length of the main bridle as long as the change does not interfere with normal function of the TSO'd parts of the parachute system.

Mark

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mark

***So you are saying that a rigger can alter the length of the PC bridle to suit their needs without approval from the container manufacturer?



That's right. Manufacturer approval is not required for a rigger to change the length of the main bridle as long as the change does not interfere with normal function of the TSO'd parts of the parachute system.

Mark

"If the bridle is too short, the pilot chute cannot launch properly. If too long, the snatch force is increased." Rigger Handbook p.2-12*

It would seem that altering the length of the bridle absolutely will intere with the normal function of the TSO'd parts of the system.

"The rigger cannot change the configuration of the bridle without approval of the manufacturer." Same paragraph, Rigger Handbook p.2-12*

*correction, p.2-15

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Why do we keep getting into this debate about what the senior/master riggers can do ?

Its clear there is a difference in opinions in what some consider they can do and what documents means.

My take, the FAA issue AC105-2e which is their clarification of the rules. If you choose to take this guidance as the FAA's interpretation of the rules - I think you would be on pretty solid ground.

As far as main/reserve goes - AC105-2e makes it clear the same repair on a main/reserve might be treated differently as in a (minor on main/major or reserve). So a senior could make a repair on a main but the same repair on a reserve may be a master rigger task by virtue of being considered a major repair

Also the manufacturer can determine if a repair is major/minor and hence who can do it. Just look at the Sunpath RSL alteration.

Whether you like the rules or not - they are there. How you chose to interpret them is down to the individual. If they can justify the work they perform and back it up with documentation whether Poynters/FAA riggers handbook/AC105 and are happy to accept that liability if something should happen.

I'm not going to say someone is right/wrong but am rather tired of this discussion constantly coming up. There is obviously a difference in opinions. If you want to muddy the waters further call 2 different FSDO and ask the question - you'll get 2 different answers. Basically its all F'd up and open to interpretation of the rules.

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RopeaDope

******So you are saying that a rigger can alter the length of the PC bridle to suit their needs without approval from the container manufacturer?



That's right. Manufacturer approval is not required for a rigger to change the length of the main bridle as long as the change does not interfere with normal function of the TSO'd parts of the parachute system.

Mark

"If the bridle is too short, the pilot chute cannot launch properly. If too long, the snatch force is increased." Rigger Handbook p.2-12*

It would seem that altering the length of the bridle absolutely will intere with the normal function of the TSO'd parts of the system.

"The rigger cannot change the configuration of the bridle without approval of the manufacturer." Same paragraph, Rigger Handbook p.2-12*

*correction, p.2-15

If that is so, then manufacturers need to publish a spec for bridle length. They do not. Bridles and p/c s are high wear items that are frequently replaced. Seldom by OEM parts. This argument is basically useless, but a perennial favourite in this forum.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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gowlerk


If that is so, then manufacturers need to publish a spec for bridle length. They do not. Bridles and p/c s are high wear items that are frequently replaced. Seldom by OEM parts. This argument is basically useless, but a perennial favourite in this forum.



They do. Sun Path for example uses two different sizes; standard length (110in) and extended length (129in)

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RopeaDope

***
If that is so, then manufacturers need to publish a spec for bridle length. They do not. Bridles and p/c s are high wear items that are frequently replaced. Seldom by OEM parts. This argument is basically useless, but a perennial favourite in this forum.



They do. Sun Path for example uses two different sizes; standard length (110in) and extended length (129in)

Sunpath's manual is excellent, even better than UPT's. But although I can find in it recommendations (not specs) for p/c sizes by canopy I can see no guidance on bridle length. Can you tell me where you see a spec?


Edit to add---- I see now on their parts for sale page the option between these two lengths. I don't see how this constitutes a specification though.
Always remember the brave children who died defending your right to bear arms. Freedom is not free.

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My take, the FAA issue AC105-2e which is their clarification of the rules. If you choose to take this guidance as the FAA's interpretation of the rules - I think you would be on pretty solid ground.



You would be wrong. This is why AC-105-2E (Which was NOT written by the FAA) is to being resolved with the regulatory issues as we speak.In other words it is in re-write mode.

Quote


As far as main/reserve goes - AC105-2e makes it clear the same repair on a main/reserve might be treated differently as in a (minor on main/major or reserve). So a senior could make a repair on a main but the same repair on a reserve may be a master rigger task by virtue of being considered a major repair



The regulations do not break repairs down into two categories.It is parachute equipment... period. The regulations then spell out who can do major and minor repairs.

The document that I just posted vividly explains the fact that that you have to be a rigger to work on any equipment, main or reserve. It then tells you that the appropriate certificate has to be used according to the service being done.

This is but one of the regulatory conflicts that is published in the AC.

Know your regulations first and then you will be on solid ground. If you are in a court of law, I would bet on the regulations vs some (liberal) document that is not law. The FAA does...just ask one of them.

Also the reason that we keep this up is the fact that people are in fact dying out there that are not following the rules. I can think of two people in the last few weeks, that where not riggers, did their own work and died. Sure anyone can make a mistake, but you have to wonder if a trained rigger had been involved, would these people have died???

MEL
Skyworks Parachute Service, LLC
www.Skyworksparachuteservice.com

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"Early bridles were simply a length of suspension line tied off to the two components. It was soon learned that the length of the bridle affected the function of the pilot chute and the opening characteristics of the canopy. If the bridle is too short, the pilot chute cannot launch properly. If too long, the snatch force is increased. On most round emergency and reserve parachute assemblies, the length and type of the bridle is fixed for optimum performance. The rigger cannot change the configuration of the bridle without approval of the manufacturer."~Parachute Rigger's Handbook



Go ahead and interpret the regulations however you want. Just don't let arrogance compromise someone's safety. I may be overly conservative about it, but if I'm wrong, I will be erring on the side on the side of caution. "I will be sure, always".

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