Please explain this video to me

[crozby 0]

I'm touched by the energy you put into that personal attack! Now I've been Ron'ned I feel like a real member of DZ.com.
Maybe something is getting lost in translation but what part of my post you quote criticises your armed forces or your nation?

For the record I LOVE your country, maybe more than my own. The weather is better, the skydiving is better, the landscape is better, the burgers are better and SUVs are a blast. The USA is simply a fantastic place.

I just know that if footage were published here in the UK showing British troops shooting an injured Iraqi like that there would be an outcry.

Yourself and others here appear to support the actions of your troops in spite of potential video evidence of them committing a war crime.

In the context of war is loyalty more important than morality in your view?

[quade 3]

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In the context of war is loyalty more important than morality in your view?

Morality is fine in the comfort of your home with plenty of time to think about things.

I think most people here are really talking about reality and in a tactical situation, we tend to cut people quite a bit of slack.

If the video had shown 5-year-olds getting mowed down, yeah, there would have been a huge outcry, but these were all bad guys doing bad things and the reality is that there were few options left to the helicopter crew.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[kallend 1,623]

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It's not about being pissed off, or not. It's about the rules of engagement and whether or not the action was reasonable at the time.

-
Jim

We certainly got pissed off when the Luftwaffe machine gunned Allied aircrew under parachute.

...

The only sure way to survive a canopy collision is not to have one.

[metalslug 31]

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...but these were all bad guys doing bad things and the reality is that there were few options left to the helicopter crew.

I acknowledge that it's perhaps off topic and may deserve it's own thread, but not much has yet been said about the second video in my earlier post.

Were there more options available to this ground unit than the Apache pilots had ?

Just to clarify my stance; I agree that the Iraqis themselves fight dirty, that street battles are seldom cordial, and that emotions run high resulting in these kinds of incidents.
I would, however, prefer that more people just acknowledge that it was improper, even if they add "Yeah, so what ?" to that acknowledgement.
Just dont deny that it was improper.

[quade 3]

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I would, however, prefer that more people just acknowledge that it was improper . . .

Don't hold your breath.

I'm not about to assume it was improper without knowing a heck of a lot more about it. Again, this was a tactical situation and I can't judge enough of what was actually going on from either the video or reports that have been released to say it was or was not improper. I will admit that it appears as if it easily falls within a grey area where it may or may not have been, but -I- do not have enough information to condemn these guy's decisions.

Neither do you. I mean, you -can- condem them if you want, but you're doing it based on nothing more than what you've seen, which, can be quite misleading.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[christelsabine 1]

Your second video ? A beat in my stomache !

For a while, I was impossible to talk about this. Even with my family.

The biggest horror in that was the comment of the soldier after that, unbelievable

How was this guy raised up? Where ? In a grotto ??He needs to be strangled, slowly . Sorry.

It's enough to make you sick. Just to imagine, this is happening every day, every moment, makes me feel so helpless.

There should be much, much more videos, pics, like that. You only can convince folks with details. Just talking in general is BS.

Show the dirty face of what is happening right now to all of these war loving guys...Playing with their muscles.


Surely you are not off topics.

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[christelsabine 1]

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I mean, you -can- condem them if you want, but you're doing it based on nothing more than what you've seen, which, can be quite misleading.

Isn't it a running gag on DZ.com site:

No video? It didn' happen !

There is a VIDEO: Did it happen or not ???

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[metalslug 31]

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but -I- do not have enough information to condemn these guy's decisions.
Neither do you. I mean, you -can- condem them if you want, but you're doing it based on nothing more than what you've seen, which, can be quite misleading.

Apparently, Lt. General Robert Gard (US Army, retired) feels he has enough information to comment to a German news channel:

"I consider this inexcusable. This didn’t happened in the center of wild combat. This was the cold-blooded murder of a severely wounded person."

Either the general knows something more than the video shows, or he is giving an opinion at face value in his capacity as a military consultant.

No 'mericans were harmed during the making of this post.

[christelsabine 1]

Your link is not going to a German news channel.

Anyhow, I saw it.

Thats already too much. Hard to stand.

This ugly young guy killed a wounded man just for fun, like shooting at a rat...

How funny must that be, so many were laughing out loud

dudeist skydiver # 3105

[quade 3]

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Either the general knows something more than the video shows, or he is giving an opinion at face value in his capacity as a military consultant.

You left out a couple of possibilites:

1) Maybe he's an asshat.
2) Maybe he's pandering to his audience.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[quade 3]

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There is a VIDEO: Did it happen or not ???

I don't think the fact that the man was killed is in dispute.

What -is- in dispute are the other facts and decisions surrounding the event.

For instance, JFK's assassination was caught on film, but all of the facts are not readily apparent just from a simple viewing the film.

quade -
The World's Most Boring Skydiver

[crozby 0]

We're all making assumptions based on a 30 second CNN clip so don't have the context of the situation.

The problem is that for many people, myself included, the video appears to clearly show an Iraqi being killed unnecessarily.

But maybe it was justified.

Perhaps someone who sees it differently could tell us the kind of thing that might have been taking place that would justify the action on the video.

[pajarito 0]

I haven't been keeping up with the conversation but here's what I think. We really shouldn't second guess the actions of our troops in the air or on the ground. I'm not saying that they shouldn't be supervised. I'm just saying that they're in combat and dealing with situations very foreign to most. What may look like an unjustified action on this video could be very well justified. Those guys could have been carrying RPG's which would easily take down that helicopter. Just because there was a tractor in the scene doesn't necessarily make them farmers. That kid in the video, if he was really a kid, is as capable as anyone else at pulling a trigger, setting a bomb, or firing a recoilless rifle. Many times, things are not what they seem. I think everybody is just hyper-sensitive to the abuse topic these days and are questioning everything.

[nanook 1]

What I saw. . . An Iraqi gettinng killed. Then I saw the soldiers whooping(looked a lot like some kids releasing some heavy adrenaline/emotional overloads ). I then saw an interview that started with a kid talking and then an obvious fast forward chop to him describing some action we don't know in fact if was part of the origional coversation.
What I don't see is the reason the guy was killed and if he was the only one and for how long this was going on ect. . . I didn't see the piece between the interview (time saving?) chop. I still don't know what the hell is going on. But, the News editors sure got a story.

_____________________________

"The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you can never know if they are genuine" - Abraham Lincoln

[crozby 0]

The guy lying on the ground wasn't carrying an RPG when he was killed - we could see that. Nor was there a rifle there. Being immobile on his back makes me think he wasn't about to set a bomb off either.

So give us a hypothetical bigger picture that would justify what we see on the CNN footage, which I think we can all agree clearly shows an injuered immobile Iraqi being shot dead.

[pajarito 0]

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The guy lying on the ground wasn't carrying an RPG when he was killed - we could see that. Nor was there a rifle there. Being immobile on his back makes me think he wasn't about to set a bomb off either.

So give us a hypothetical bigger picture that would justify what we see on the CNN footage, which I think we can all agree clearly shows an injuered immobile Iraqi being shot dead.

My point is that you and I don't know. We weren't in on the scenario at all. The pilots obviously considered them a threat. What should they do? Let the guy go over to his truck and pull out an RPG? Wait till they shoot at you, so as to be fair, while you're hovering in a multi-million dollar helicopter? I was deployed downrange in Afghanistan for 8 months. You're average Joe driving down the road is loaded to the hilt with rifles, ammo, and RPG's. They're as common as candy in those areas. We don't have the luxury many times to give them the benefit of the doubt. Many times, if you hesitate for the wrong second, you die and that's all there is to it. It's war. It's an ugly business. We also don't have the luxury to second guess one's every move back here in the States in the comfort of our own homes. Things aren't always what they seem.

[crozby 0]

I was referring to the CNN footage posted by metalslug.

There are two opposing views being expressed on this site: those that think it portrays the shooting of an injured Iraqi, and those that think that the US troops were justified in shooting the Iraqi which makes it ok.

Please, please, please would someone who thinks it is ok explain it to us what could be happening in addition to the footage that we all can see that would make it a justifiable killing.

[pajarito 0]

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I was referring to the CNN footage posted by metalslug.

There are two opposing views being expressed on this site: those that think it portrays the shooting of an injured Iraqi, and those that think that the US troops were justified in shooting the Iraqi which makes it ok.

Please, please, please would someone who thinks it is ok explain it to us what could be happening in addition to the footage that we all can see that would make it a justifiable killing.

The video looks pretty condemning. The commentary is irrelevant, however. So is the cheering by the troops/marines. That has nothing to do with whether it was a good shoot or not. To me, it looked in the video that the guy was not a threat anymore. Then again, I wasn't there so I don't know that for sure. If he was previously a combatant, he was probably carrying grenades and possibly a pistol even if he didn't have his long rifle anymore. His hands weren't visible so we don't know what he might have been reaching for. Just a guess. Again, all of us watching this video have no idea. Whether it was a good shoot or not would be up to his commanding officer on the ground.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I was referring to the CNN footage posted by metalslug.

There are two opposing views being expressed on this site: those that think it portrays the shooting of an injured Iraqi, and those that think that the US troops were justified in shooting the Iraqi which makes it ok.

Please, please, please would someone who thinks it is ok explain it to us what could be happening in addition to the footage that we all can see that would make it a justifiable killing.

I don't know what happened. But just speculating, perhaps the Iraqi had just killed a few of the guys buddies. I know I'd be pissed and would probably do the same thing "if" that was what happened. As I said though, we don't know.

[crozby 0]

And that in your view would justify the killing of the Iraqi?

[Gravitymaster 0]

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And that in your view would justify the killing of the Iraqi?

Absolutely!! I'd probably pop a few shots in him after he was dead just for good measure.

[crozby 0]

I'd avenge a friends death too, but its not the right thing to do.

[Gravitymaster 0]

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I'd avenge a friends death too, but its not the right thing to do.

Its illegal for me to kick a guy in the balls for insulting my girlfriend too, but if he does it, thats whats going to happen and I'll deal with the consequences later.

[Ron 7]

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In the context of war is loyalty more important than morality in your view?

In the context of war I am not going to second guess the guys who are in the battle.

When I saw the "Pop up Video" of the helicopter attack...And read what the "Pop up's" said...Yep, I got a little angry...Then Quade posted the TRUE story. That it was an arms deal. Well that changes things huh?

If it was just an attack on some farmers it was pretty sick.....If it was an attack on an illegal arms deal...Good for them, they got what they deserve. Since they DID get permission to fire, I'm betting it was an illegal arms deal...But funny how the delivery of the story can make the story swing another way huh?

As for the second video....Well there was some very clear edits there as well. And no, I don't feel the slightest bad about killing a guy that just seconds ago was trying to kill me, and my team. I would not condone just walking up to a guy that was just sitting there doing nothing, but I support the killing of a guy that just seconds ago was trying to end my life.

For the record I didn't get outraged by the Iraqi's killing Burg either. I understand it, I understand the nature of warfare...Maybe you don't.

You see you have two sides, and they are trying to kill each other. One side will kill you in your sleep, murder you family if they could, and will desecrate your body. The other side TRIES to use fair ROE. But that sometimes does not happen.

As for the second video....If a guy is trying to kill me, and he gets hit and drops his weapon....Unless it is SAFE to capture him (and you don't know if it was safe in this case. Many times you can use wonded to lure people out to a kill zone) and he might have intel we need. I'm gonna drop him.

When he fired on me, unless he surenders he is a threat. Guys have been wounded, and when you try to help them they blow you up with a grenade, or stab you. They fight dirty, and all you need to do is see them do that ONCE and you will not trust them.

As for the glee at the marines...Well after a fire fight there is so much damn adrenialan in them...I don't doubt they were glad the fight was over...Like when you landed after your first jump...where you excited? Was that easy to control? What you don't see in the video was how long the battle was, and how bad it was. Since he is wounded at the start of the video, you don't know what he was doing before...If he had just been aiming an RPG at the wall of troops and he was hit before he could fire...Well, if a guy just almost killed you, and you hit him, are you going to be able to stop firing as soon as he drops? I doubt it...

Can you see the other side? If a guy was trying to KILL you, and KILL your buddies. And you knew damn good and well that THEY show no mercy and if they could they would not only kill you, but DRAG your body through the street, BURN it, CUT it up, and HANG it up for people to throw rocks at....What would you do to the guy that was just trying to KILL you?

I'd kill him.

Edit to add:
You talk about me Attacking you....

Well lets look at it.

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And I admire how you armchair rangers can talk about ROE.

I do admire how a guy that never has been in the military or god forbid in a battle can sit back and make judgment calls on guys that WERE under fire...Thats like listening to whuffos talk about skydiving and listening to them as experts.

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I also admire how you can turn on a country that more than once has gone above and beyond to save many other countries asses.

The US has done so many good things...But I don't hear you talk about them....WW2 was agreat example, with out the US you would be speaking germain.


I don't hear you bitching about the US in WWII.

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The simple fact is you will take whatever information YOU deem important. And YOU don't have a clue to the whole story, YOU are a perfect "chairborne ranger".

You are only looking at ONE side, and you have no idea how to see the other side...Or for that matter I don't think you want to see the other side.

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As for American GI's that break ROE, or kill for fun...I'd fry them just as fast as I'd drop an Iraqi with a SAM.

You seemed to totaly blow over this statment of mine.

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There is right, and there is wrong...Then there is your version which is what ever the US does is wrong.

Seems to me you like bashing the US...You make comments based off of VERY little information...Information I might add that was CREATED with a spin. You don't seem to care about getting the other side of the story before you bash the US....Like Is aid I was pissed at the first video, but I didn't comment till I read Quades artical....THEN I made a comment.

You didn't you went off half cocked.

I don't see a personal attack in my showing you where you made a snap judgment on half of the story.


_________________________________________

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[crozby 0]

I didn't 'blow over' that statement of yours, I absorbed it like I absorbed your latest post. I asked for your opinion and you've given it, and I'm grateful.

Effort spent trying to understand opposing points of view is surely more valuable than effort spent slapping them down. Wouldn't you agree?

If we were on a military forum I think you'd be correct in lambasting contributors without a military background, but this is a skydiving forum and that attitude is out of place here and is more than a little condescending given that you have no idea of my background (at least I don't think you do!).

You're simply wrong when you assume that my concern over events in Iraq means I don't like the US. Equating the questioning of the actions of a state with disloyalty to said state belongs back in the past behind the iron curtain, not here and now in a democratic society.