If not AA Then What??

[Deuce 1]

Any of you guys want to play some softball?

[Ron 7]

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I do agree to your post, except the black marked words in your last sentence. Could possibly be discussed a little closer one day

thats why it was:

***You are more free here than just about anywhere else in the world.

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America is not perfect. But it is better than most.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

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[KATO33 0]

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As long as you contiune to try and waive historical data that HAD NO DIRECT EFFECT on you, and contiune to use that to try and explain away a cultures lack of drive and use it as a reason for your current day failures...You get no respect from me.

Here's what you are not understanding the oppression inflicted upon our ancestors has directly affected the present day Black community.

White people in this country have had a 400 yr social, cultural, econimical, and educational headstart. So you are saying after 25 yrs. of "things being even" (even though things still aren't fair) but for the sake of argument lets say the past 25 yrs everything was even and fair. Even if we worked twice as hard on all of the community ills we'd still be 350 yrs. behind.

Blue Skies Black Death

[juanesky 0]

Kato, as an immigrant myself, that would not apply. My headstart is basically 10 years from today. FYI

"According to some of the conservatives here, it sounds like it's fine to beat your wide - as long as she had it coming." -Billvon

[KATO33 0]

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Answer this question do you believe after 400 yrs of oppression and mistreatment of any race of people within a society that after 25 years of "every thing being Ok" that the people that were oppressed would be on par with the greater society??

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That is a yes and no answer.

Yes, in that there are a lot of blacks (using black since that's what seems to have started this session off) that are in excellent positions - they've worked their butts off, talk professionally, and do not ask for things based on their skin color - they want to PROVE they can do it based on their skills alone.

No, in that there are, also, a lot of blacks that talk slang (which will not get them the professional job), feel that all whites owe them, think that welfare is the way to go because "damn...I can stay home and make $X just by popping out kids but if I work, I only make $Y dollars...not worth it." Even those that live in the projects know what they would need to do to get ahead in life...they chose what their outcome will be - will they stay in the projects or work their ass off to be better?

You will always have individuals that would excell in just about any situation. You also have individuals that would squander any all opportunity given to them. (Human thing not a race thing).

My question is geared towards the oppressed Society as a whole. Will a race of people that's been oppressed for 400 yrs be on par with the greater society after 25 yrs. "of things being even".

Blue Skies Black Death

[KATO33 0]

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Kato, as an immigrant myself, that would not apply. My headstart is basically 10 years from today. FYI

Agreed

Blue Skies Black Death

[PhillyKev 0]

Really? Did you immigrate from somewhere that your race was oppressed for 400 years?

[PhillyKev 0]

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America is not perfect.

You are un-American, un-patriotic, and should go live in some other country. Stop supporting terrorism!!!

[rehmwa 2]

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White people in this country have had a 400 yr social, cultural, econimical, and educational headstart. So you are saying after 25 yrs. of "things being even" (even though things still aren't fair) but for the sake of argument lets say the past 25 yrs everything was even and fair. Even if we worked twice as hard on all of the community ills we'd still be 350 yrs. behind.

That is bull. This is about changing how people think and treat each other. It can happen in a single generation if we teach our kids to value the right things.

My daughter will play with any kid provided: they are nice; they don't stink; they aren't bossy; they aren't too stupid; they want to play with her. We ask questions about her friends like; is she nice, does she tease, will her parent let her come over to play. Nothing else - to set a good example of what's important.

One day in school (MLK day) the teachers had a lesson. All the kids with blue eyes got special treatment and all the rest were treated crappy - "just to teach them something about fairness".

That was wrong for so many reasons and when we complained, they just didn't get it.

YES, they were teaching the kids about racism. It was the most horrible thing I've ever heard of for an 'educator' to do. These kids don't care about race but the teachers were trying to indoctrinate them 'for their own good'. Utter bull. The very groups that 'say' they want to fix a problem are purposely perpetuating it.

Liberals can't link actions with consequences - it's a serious flaw in logic. And you can't teach by exercising what "not" to do. It's like telling yourself to NOT funnel that exit.

The much more effective way to make the right point is to show an example in everyday life about treating people as individuals. Not emphasizing the mistakes, but emphasizing and demostrating the right things.

So to answer the first question of how do make it better... We (as individuals) BE color blind and let our children see that good example then they think it's normal and right and they will live it without even trying.

When a black man mutters about injustice, his son hears that and then is at a disadvantage later in life for learning that. If a 'good ol boy' makes cracks about the local minority, his daughter who hears that is less of a person because of that. (point here is it goes both ways). What are you teaching your child? Why insist on bunching people into categories when we should take each other one at a time?

AA is discimination and perpetuates the very problem it was intended to solve. The government is not responsible to teach our children right from wrong (the so called 'village' is a crock), we are as individuals and that's the thing we can effect.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[ladyskydiver 0]

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My question is geared towards the oppressed Society as a whole. Will a race of people that's been oppressed for 400 yrs be on par with the greater society after 25 yrs. "of things being even".

"Things being even" - Nothing for anyone will ever be even - no matter what. People will never be on a level playing field. There are always things that impact "evenness." The only thing we can do is try and make things even and Equal Opportunity does that. AA is just a way of utilizing racism to try and say that this is going to make things even.

Racism no matter which direction it goes - whites vs. blacks, blacks vs. whites, purple vs. green, green vs. purple, and on and on and....is wrong. You want to stop racism and try and make things even? Then quit using racism to do it.

What you've been talking about is revenge. Revenge for a past wrong that may/may not have been done to your ancestors by mine and trying to hold me accountable for something that my ancestors may/may not have done to yours.

And...how do the immigrants do it? They leave a country they have known their entire lives, come to the U.S., face racism/prejudices (a friend of mine whom I adore has a cute Russian accent but because of his accent is definitely looked down on by some people), and come out ok without screaming racism. They just work their asses off and do what they need to to improve their lives.

Life is short! Break the rules! Forgive quickly! Kiss slowly! Love truly, Laugh uncontrollably. And never regret anything that made you smile.

[storm1977 0]

In the early 1900's there were signs out side of almost all busnisses in Boston and NY which read;

"Irish Need Not Apply"

Hey my people were oppressed when they got here too. But you know what they did about it? They worked there asses off. They kept trying harder and harder to succeed, and guess what they did.

Success is an attitude. If you possess the disire to succeed than you can overcome almost anything. The problem right now is that the Black community as a whole is not self motivating enough to create the desire to succeed. Instead they are looking for excuses.

Chris

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Jib 0]

Do you see black doctors moving back into slums or into the suburbs? How about teachers, lawyers, executives...? Is it the inner city black youth who benefit by AA or the suburbanite's son or daughter? What does affirmative action do? Who does it benefit? Does it lift up or merely advantage those whose parents have worked hard to rise up from their humble beginnings? Beyond initial hiring, is it fair to elevate less qualified people to higher positions because of sex, race, etc? e.g. 20 years experience with a company v. a 5 year AA? Do these racists or their progeny look at someone and say only because of AA...?

Cavaet: These are only thoughts for discussion and I ask them, 'cause I don't know.

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the depth of his depravity sickens me.
-- Jerry Falwell, People v. Larry Flynt

[Kennedy 0]

Does every black person live in poverty? No? They're capable of bringing themselves out of it? Just like my family did? Aren't you stereotyping, and insulting an entire race by saying they are incapable of overcoming adversity?

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If you don't live in a minority neighborhood, your school was probably better funded then one that is.

I remember playing Orange in HS football. About as inner city as you can get without getting your bus shot at ont he way there. They had a full size stadium. With turf. With tunnels. With more seating then they'll ever fill.

Why?

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You are more likely to get a job based on your race.

wrong answer.
In my desired line of work, if Affirmative Actions isn't systematically instituted, there is at least a heavy recruiting drive to bring in minorities.

You know what city police forces have found, even with increased recruiting and better pay? Most black city dwellers don't want to work as cops. Just because someone doesn't want a job, that doesn't mean it isn't there.

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You are more likely to be given a loan with a better interest rate based on your race.

Might that have something to do with the fact that I haven't spent myself into bankruptcy and pay my bills on time?

At my bank, the tellers are split 50/50 white and non-white, but the manager and office folks are a white woman, an asian woman, and a black man.

And by the way, the only loans I have are student loans that have the same consolidated rate as every other student.

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Affirmative Action cheapens the achievements of minorities everywhere. When you see a black man in corner office, did he get there because he's the best, or because he is black? Just food for thought.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[Kennedy 0]

Yes. It's called Scotland. Do a little digging about the MacGregor clan. Or look into British crimes against and oppression of scots. Or check out American bogotry against Scotch-Irish.

kallend said 'stop calling yourself a victim.' It's good advice to everyone.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
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[PhillyKev 0]

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Does every black person live in poverty? No? They're capable of bringing themselves out of it? Just like my family did? Aren't you stereotyping, and insulting an entire race by saying they are incapable of overcoming adversity?

No, I'm saying they have more diversity to overcome than others. The people that are insulting an entire race are those that claim they have they same opportunities as everyone else but fail because of their race.

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You know what city police forces have found, even with increased recruiting and better pay? Most black city dwellers don't want to work as cops.

And you know what most black city dwellers have found? That city police forces, like the rest of society, have elements of racism in them and have the power to do a lot of harm. Gee, wonder why they don't want to be cops.

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Might that have something to do with the fact that I haven't spent myself into bankruptcy and pay my bills on time?

At my bank, the tellers are split 50/50 white and non-white, but the manager and office folks are a white woman, an asian woman, and a black man.

And by the way, the only loans I have are student loans that have the same consolidated rate as every other student.

I'm talking about home loans. There have been many reports showing that banks are much more likely to give a loan to someone with questionable credit in a "white neighborhood" than a black neighborhood with all other factors being equal.

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Affirmative Action cheapens the achievements of minorities everywhere. When you see a black man in corner office, did he get there because he's the best, or because he is black? Just food for thought.

That would be the thought of someone who is judging them on their race. When I see anyone in a corner office I look at their performance.

Some of you guys seem to have the impression that AA means that companies have to go out and find homeless people to give jobs too. Or give a job to someone less qualified. The point of AA is that there are blacks who are just as qualified as whites for any job, it just makes sure they recruit those people to make up for the jobs they don't get because they're biased against. Unless you want to claim that there are certain jobs that any black person couldn't do as well as any white person.

[Deuce 1]

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And you know what most black city dwellers have found? That city police forces, like the rest of society, have elements of racism in them and have the power to do a lot of harm. Gee, wonder why they don't want to be cops.

What's your source for this, your "black friends"?

The black guys I worked with, in Oakland, got quite depressed from time to time being called "House Nigger" every time they made an arrest of a black person.

As my chief was a black man, as was half the command staff, they had no fear of institutionalized racism. The community's racism, however, was quite a disincentive to take the job.

[storm1977 0]

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The point of AA is that there are blacks who are just as qualified as whites for any job, it just makes sure they recruit those people to make up for the jobs they don't get because they're biased against.

That is where you are wrong. AA has put into place quotes to be met by any means.

Look at the Boston FD, or at many colleges where AA was in place.

In boston 4 higher scoring Whites were refused jobs because of AA and 4 lower scoring blacks received the jobs. Hmmmm...

At many colleges students are refused entry even though their Grades and scores are better, so that other students of differing enthincities with lower credentials get in.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[PhillyKev 0]

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That is where you are wrong. AA has put into place quotes to be met by any means.

No, actually I'm not wrong. That is indeed the point of AA. What is wrong is the way it has been implemented. But, like the righties claim about the lefties, the righties just want to complain and get rid of it instead of fixing it.

[PhillyKev 0]

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And you know what most black city dwellers have found? That city police forces, like the rest of society, have elements of racism in them and have the power to do a lot of harm. Gee, wonder why they don't want to be cops.

What's your source for this, your "black friends"?

The black guys I worked with, in Oakland, got quite depressed from time to time being called "House Nigger" every time they made an arrest of a black person.

As my chief was a black man, as was half the command staff, they had no fear of institutionalized racism. The community's racism, however, was quite a disincentive to take the job.

You're right, there has been no documented evidence of racism by police. There hasn't been any racial profiling anywhere, there haven't been findings of racial bias by investigatory task forces in almost every large police force in the nation.

And as far as my "black friends" being the soruce for my comment, since my comment was about the views of black people about the police wouldn't they be a good source?

[storm1977 0]

Here is a fix... get rid of it, It is the rawest for of racism there is.

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Sometimes it is more important to protect LIFE than Liberty

[Deuce 1]

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You're right, there has been no documented evidence of racism by police. There hasn't been any racial profiling anywhere, there haven't been findings of racial bias by investigatory task forces in almost every large police force in the nation.

And as far as my "black friends" being the soruce for my comment, since my comment was about the views of black people about the police wouldn't they be a good source?

It's anecdotal.

I've been there and done that, the police in the inner-city thing. It's clear I have nothing to share with you that might change your opinion.

As I've said before, no human system is without hypocrisy. For me that is no reason to strive for perfection. It seems to me, that in arguments like the one you are making, that since atrocities have occurred, there's no reason to strive for justice.

Hypocrisy existing in the effort to be just is simply no reason to stop trying to achieve justice.

[PhillyKev 0]

I agree with you, and I see AA, when properly implemented as being a means to that end.

[Kennedy 0]

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No, I'm saying they have more diversity to overcome than others.

Yeah, I just hate having to overcome diversity.

You meant adversity?

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The people that are insulting an entire race are those that claim they have they same opportunities as everyone else but fail because of their race.

Isn't that exactly what you said HERE and HERE?

According to you, if anything is to blame, it's the culture, not outside racism. (and that's a statement I agree with)

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And you know what most black city dwellers have found? That city police forces, like the rest of society, have elements of racism in them and have the power to do a lot of harm. Gee, wonder why they don't want to be cops.

You said it right there. THEY DON'T WANT TO. That is the biggest obstacle.

Racism has become an excuse. You don't want to suffer racism? Go prove them wrong. You say you are more valuable to a company? Prove it. Get hired somewhere else and make them a better company than the one who didn't hire you. If your company is more productive than the one that is racist, the stockholders will want to know why. Can't get hired anywhere because of racism? Start your own company and tap that vast pool of talent unused because of racism.

The three best things anyone could do for blacks would be to end welfare, end affirmative action, and shut up "leaders" who promote palying the race victim card at every obstacle.

Stop giving handouts and put people on their own. "If you want it, work for it, because no one will give it to you." A little motivation goes a long way.

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[PhillyKev 0]

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Yeah, I just hate having to overcome diversity.

You meant adversity?

Ha...nice catch.

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Isn't that exactly what you said HERE and HERE?

According to you, if anything is to blame, it's the culture, not outside racism. (and that's a statement I agree with)

That's true. The culture in black communities is a direct cause for their diversity...errrrr, adversity . But you have to examine why that culture exists. Are they isolated from the rest of society? No. All of society is responsible for the culture that exists in black communities. Specifically racism against blacks. One of the worst results of the institutionalized racism against blacks is that even blacks are racist against blacks.

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Racism has become an excuse. You don't want to suffer racism? Go prove them wrong. You say you are more valuable to a company? Prove it. Get hired somewhere else and make them a better company than the one who didn't hire you. If your company is more productive than the one that is racist, the stockholders will want to know why. Can't get hired anywhere because of racism? Start your own company and tap that vast pool of talent unused because of racism.

In an ideal world, that would be the answer. There are individuals who do that. Yes, it is possible. But we, as a society, have to look at the big picture. What is the best thing for society as a whole? Is it better to let blacks continue to languish in their current environment. Or should there be mitigating steps taken to break the existing cycle?

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The three best things anyone could do for blacks would be to end welfare, end affirmative action, and shut up "leaders" who promote palying the race victim card at every obstacle.

True, but we have to get to a point where doing that will not result in a couple of generations of utter misery for millions of people. We're working toward that goal.

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Stop giving handouts and put people on their own. "If you want it, work for it, because no one will give it to you." A little motivation goes a long way.

This is where you have to step away from the big picture and look at the individuals. I have known a few people who collected welfare. And every one of them was a hard working, motivated person who at the time had no other (legal) option except living on the street. There's a misconception about welfare recipients. Is the system abused? Yes. But the vast majority are people who are genuinely needy and deserving of a termporary bit of help until they can get back on their feet.

[rehmwa 2]

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This is where you have to step away from the big picture and look at the individuals.

Here .

Can't give you one of the real things, but I will if I ever get the chance.

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Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants