Bush to Apologize to Iraq

[billvon 2,412]

>Why did Clinton lie about getting a hummer in the Oval Office?

Because most men lie about such things. On the plus side, no one was tortured or killed by his blowjob, and hundreds of US soldiers didn't die as a result.

And here I thought we'd get all the way through a thread without an obligatory Clinton slam . . .

>He has much bigger fish to fry than this tiny BS. . . .

"This tiny BS?" The torture, rape and murder of people we claimed we were liberating is tiny BS, comparable to getting a blowjob from some chick? I guess I have very different ideas on what's important and what's not than you do.

[billvon 2,412]

>If that mattered then your point would carry weight.

The fervor with which democrats insist that Gore really won is matched only by the steadfast denial by republicans that more people in the US wanted Gore to be president than Bush.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

I think the opcoming election will be very interesting to watch for outsiders like myself. Outside of the smaller groups who are staunch Bush or Kerry supporters and will vote for them no matter what, it seems that people have really only one choice to make:

Do they want four more years with Bush or not. I agree that the majority of voters will vote either for or against Bush. I think that if the Democratic party had come up with a stronger candidate Bush would ahve been in a world of trouble. Now it will be close, but it will be interesting to see how many people will vote against Bush.

[Ron 7]

Quote

>Why did Clinton lie about getting a hummer in the Oval Office?

Because most men lie about such things. On the plus side, no one was tortured or killed by his blowjob, and hundreds of US soldiers didn't die as a result.

No, but his inaction of dealing with OBL and Saddam DID contribute to the current situation.

"If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice" Rush

Quote

And here I thought we'd get all the way through a thread without an obligatory Clinton slam . . .

And I thought the whole "Gore won" crap was done also.

Hint..He lost.

Quote

The fervor with which democrats insist that Gore really won is matched only by the steadfast denial by republicans that more people in the US wanted Gore to be president than Bush.

Who cares...The system in place gave it to Bush...Thats the way the system has worked for longer than you or I have been alive.

Quote

"This tiny BS?" The torture, rape and murder of people we claimed we were liberating is tiny BS, comparable to getting a blowjob from some chick? I guess I have very different ideas on what's important and what's not than you do.

War is fucked up...people do stupid things...ask your buddy Kerry he admitted to commiting war crimes..Of course then he didn't...But the actions of some SGT in a WAR zone don't mean as much to me in the big picture as the most powerful man in the country lying about such a stupid small issue...If he will lie about that, he would most likley lie about something of importance.

Thats the issue.

"No free man shall ever be debarred the use of arms." -- Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Jefferson Papers, 334

[Gawain 0]

Quote

>If that mattered then your point would carry weight.

The fervor with which democrats insist that Gore really won is matched only by the steadfast denial by republicans that more people in the US wanted Gore to be president than Bush.

I made no such denial though. USA Today printed this map sometime after the election. While it shows how the popular vote for Gore weighed in from the cities, it also shows that "culturally" (geographically) the country was pretty decisive.

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,412]

>No, but his inaction of dealing with OBL and Saddam DID contribute
>to the current situation.

Agreed. Presidents back to Reagan have contributed to the problem; heck, we supported both the Mujahideen and Saddam at some points.

>Who cares...The system in place gave it to Bush...Thats the way the
> system has worked for longer than you or I have been alive.

Right. And the system said OJ was innocent of murder, so he's innocent - which is another thing many can't accept. But we all agreed to work within the system.

>Thats the issue.

I'll ignore the obligatory Kerry slam. Feel free to start another thread if you want to go off on one of your favorite politicians again.

The issue is that US soldiers, with support from their superiors, raped, tortured and killed innocent Iraqis, and they did it systematically. And that is a very big deal.

[billvon 2,412]

>While it shows how the popular vote for Gore weighed in from the
> cities, it also shows that "culturally" (geographically) the country was
> pretty decisive.

If only dirt could vote!

[crzjp20 0]

Quote

The issue is that US soldiers, with support from their superiors, raped, tortured and killed innocent Iraqis, and they did it systematically. And that is a very big deal.

BINGO thats the point of this thread so lets get back to it and off the other subjects there are pleanty of other threads to discuss that.

As for the problems atthe prision.... yeah we messed up, and bad. Were people killed? dont know, were people raped? dont know, ill have to see the report when it comes out. But what i do know is that the Army in which i serve is an army that prides itself on helping otehrs. But just like any orginization there will be bad seads, that is what this uni was, a bad sead. That is why they will be punished accordinly, and the officers will be held responcable even if they didnt know it had happend.

This is a horrible thing, it is sad, and it is shameful, but it is not wide spread. This is not going on every time that a captive is brought in. This is an isolated event and will be handled accouringly.

Our troops are not hanis murders, they care about what they are doing. I know, casue i wear the same uniform. Granted i am not over there, i have alot of friends who are, and family that is over there. So i know what is going on, i have hear the stories, i have seen the reports, this is isolated.

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

Were people killed?

Yes

Quote

were people raped?

Yes

Quote

ill have to see the report when it comes out

It's out. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/4894001/

[Kennedy 0]

Quote

If only dirt could vote!

If only people in cities didn't think the rest of the country was dirt.

now back to your regularly scheduled thread...

witty subliminal message
Guard your honor, let your reputation fall where it will, and outlast the bastards.
1*

[billvon 2,412]

>As for the problems atthe prision.... yeah we messed up, and bad.
>Were people killed? dont know . .

Yes. At least 25 deaths. 2 have been classified as homicides, the rest are under investigation.
-----------------------------------
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Two Iraqi prisoners were murdered by Americans and 23 other deaths are being investigated in Iraq and Afghanistan, the United States revealed on Tuesday as the Bush administration tried to contain growing outrage over the abuse of Iraqi detainees. . .

An official said a soldier was convicted in the U.S. military justice system of killing a prisoner by hitting him with a rock, and was reduced in rank to private and thrown out of the service but did not serve any jail time.

The official, speaking on condition of anonymity, said a private contractor who worked for the CIA was found to have committed the other homicide against a prisoner.
------------------------------------

>were people raped? dont know, ill have to see the report when it comes out.

It's out. From the report:

[incidents included] sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick . .

>But just like any orginization there will be bad seads, that is what this
>uni was, a bad sead. That is why they will be punished accordinly,
> and the officers will be held responcable even if they didnt know it
> had happend.

I hope you're right, although it looks like dozens of bad seeds at this point.

>Our troops are not hanis murders, they care about what they are
> doing.

I agree. Being in a place like Iraq can change people, though. It doesn't mean they're bad people normally, just that they can sometimes convince themselves that the bad they are doing are for a greater good. We have to make sure that doesn't happen again.

[billvon 2,412]

>If only people in cities didn't think the rest of the country was dirt.

Most of the country is made of dirt. However, it is people, rather than dirt, that counts in elections. Thus it matters more than 1000 people in a small town in California vote for candidate A than 3 people on a 30,000 acre farm vote for candidate B - even though you can put a really big square on the map for candidate B as a result.

[crzjp20 0]

ok sorry i hadnt seen the report before.... my bad.

as for the bad seeds thing. dozens is isolated. thats less than a ful platoon, so in prospective what is platoon or company, in an army with over a million people? thats well less than 1%. in preospective thats not a bad stat. But in reality it is not good.

--------------------------------------------------
Fear is not a confession of weakness, it is an oportunity for courage.

[kmcguffee 0]

Quote

were people raped?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Yes

The only rape mentioned in that report was one prisoner raping another prisoner. Other allegations of rape were made by prisoners. There is, as of yet, no proof that anyone raped a detainee.

The exact part is:

Quote

Writing “I am a Rapest” (sic) on the leg of a detainee alleged to have forcibly raped a 15-year old fellow detainee, and then photographing him naked;

There is mention that detainees claim they were threatened with rape. One MP is accused of having sex with a female detainee:

Quote

A male MP guard having sex with a female detainee

but no rape. Did you not read it or do you just like to make things look worse than they already are for other reasons?

"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Ben Franklin

[billvon 2,412]

>There is, as of yet, no proof that anyone raped a detainee.

It was in a report written by a US army general, and comes complete with corroborating sources listed at the end:

(U) In addition, several detainees also described the following acts of abuse, which under the circumstances, I find credible based on the clarity of their statements and supporting evidence provided by other witnesses (ANNEX 26):

. . .

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

[PhillyKev 0]

Quote

g. (U) Sodomizing a detainee with a chemical light and perhaps a broom stick.

That's not really rape thought. Maybe him and the chemical light were in love.

[SkyDekker 1,130]

Quote

There is mention that detainees claim they were threatened with rape. One MP is accused of having sex with a female detainee:

Unless she freely, without any form of duress, consented to that act, that would be rape.

I highly doubt the mp can make a successful claim that she freely and without duress consented to this act. Considering he was in quite the position of power.

[Gawain 0]

Quote

But in reality it is not good.

May I ask this (maybe it's been asked already, or I missed it) --- I've seen a few items floating that suggest perhaps these MPs were not aware of the Geneva Conventions. Aren't some of the basic principles of the Geneva Conventions taught in Basic Training?

So I try and I scream and I beg and I sigh
Just to prove I'm alive, and it's alright
'Cause tonight there's a way I'll make light of my treacherous life
Make light!

[billvon 2,412]

>Unless she freely, without any form of duress, consented to that act, that would be rape.

This just in, from MSNBC:

------------------------------------
Rumsfeld did not describe the photos, but U.S. military officials told NBC News that the unreleased images showed U.S. soldiers severely beating an Iraqi prisoner nearly to death, having sex with a female Iraqi female prisoner and “acting inappropriately with a dead body.” The officials said there was also a videotape, apparently shot by U.S. personnel, showing Iraqi guards raping young boys.
------------------------------------

This reads more and more like a bad Quentin Tarantino movie. Is this really the US doing/promoting these things?