Atheist VS Christian, LONG & NSFA

[WrongWay 0]

I found this on the internet a while back and I found it very interesting.

Disclaimer.....I did not write this email, nor do I have any affiliation with either of the writers with the exception that I have exchanged emails with James (Atheist) a few times. I admit I agree with many of the points made, but I did not write any of it, so if you flame me, you're yelling at the wrong guy.

Warning......Christians may find this offensive and may become hostile after reading it. Atheists may find it funny or say something like "right on". Do not taunt the dragon, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup.

Feel free to post opinions and such, I'm interested how both sides are affected by this. Remember, I'm not a troll, I'm not out to cause trouble, just interested in finding out what others think about this, so please please please, let's keep the replies civil, calm, and peaceful.

Anyway, here's the email. It was labeled "The Ultimate Response to a Christian". I will remove email addresses for the protection of the innocent/guilty/whoever. The quotes with arrows are from the Christian, the ones without are from the Atheist.

From: James
To: Brandon
Subject: Re: science?....right.


On Thu, 17 Oct 2002, you wrote:
>
> I doubt you'll listen, I doubt you'll care, but as a Christian, it is my
> duty to speak to those who are lost.

This is known as indoctrination technique, it is used by all cults to
attain new members. Only religions which practice this offensive technique of
forcing their will upon others have survived (as logically only those should)
while benign religions which do NOT impose their will under penalty of the
sword, fear of suffering in some kind of hell, or whatever have died out (as
have the benign religions such as the wiccans, and pagans).

BTW, I do listen, and I do care, and I have been told that I am
"christ-like" by more than one person who knows me personally. Unlike you
christians, I am free of hate, tho I do feel frustration sometimes. ;o)

> You don't think you are lost, in
> fact you probably think that I've given into a myth, but let me ask you
> this: This so called 'myth', that has worked miracles and prophecies in my
> life for the past 20 years, how is it that his prophecies are all correct?

Prophecies are often subjective and misinterpreted. Miracles happen to
me too, only I wonder at the amazing properties of "life" not fictitious gods.

> Why does it speak of a 200,000,000 man army in the east and China reached
> that number in 1996?

The bible speaks of a lot of things that make absolutely no sense
unless you go _way_ out on a limb with your "interpretations". Jules Verne
prophesied in his fictional tales, with incredible accuracy, how life would be
today. So did Arthur C. Clarke when he wrote about global communications
satellites WAY before sputnik was ever launched. These men were visionaries,
they were NOT gods. The same may hold true, but to a far lesser extent for your
favorite work of fiction, the christian bible, tho it is poorly written.

> Why does the bible speak of pillars of smoke, blood
> and death that rise to the heavens, thousands of years before a nuclear
> bomb was ever created?

Pillars of smoke, rise into the heavens (what we now know to be outer
space)? One interpretation could be nuclear bombs exploding. Another could be
a forest fire which also produced pillars of smoke rising high into the
stratosphere, and along with it blood and death of everything in its path.
Interpretation of scripture is subjective, and as all things subjective, can be
manipulated to suit ANY particular purpose, especially if you ignore the parts
that don't fit, and concentrate on the parts that do.

> Why does it speak of a revived roman empire before
> the E.U. decided to move towards that direction?

If the EU forms a conjoined army, they will not call it the "Roman"
army, it will be the EU Army or something similar.

> Why does it speak of
> increased seismic acitivity and there have been more earthquakes in the
> past 50 years than the previous 300?

Did we have seismography back 300 years ago? Do you know why today
people freak out over a few parts per BILLION of lead in their water, when just
10 years ago it was undetectable, because our technology at that point only
could detect down to parts per MILLION? We detect more earthquakes as the
equipment used to detect them is improving year by year. You are failing to
understand the Principia Scientia, as do all religionists.

> Why does it speak of stange weather
> and increased terrorism?

You only know of more terrorism because the "world has gotten smaller"
thanks to global communications. When I was a kid, we knew nothing of the
Soviet Union, but today I see news from the Russian Federation daily (on the
web). Just because we have access to more information does not mean that
terrorism, or warfare is any greater today than it always has been.

> You want a whose who of prophecy coming true
> today, you can do two things: grab a bible and a newspaper and read
> comparatively, or go to www.glennbeck.com and their end of the world link.
> Where you can see close to a hundred prophecies of GOD, GOD, GOD that have
> ALREADY COME TRUE!

Again, prophecies are subjective, I'm sure I can interpret them with
equal accuracy to prove something completely different.

> Why is there a chip for your right hand that holds all
> of yout information?

The chip is not going to be embedded in the hand, where it can be
broken. "The Chip" or "biochip" as some call it is not new. Biometric tags
(as we scientists call them) have been around for years, I began using them with
laboratory animals in the early 1980's. Back then however, they were much
larger and only contained a unique identifier (serial number). Later they
would give the ID number, and the body temperature. Today they can hold vast
amounts of information, including complete medical history. The optimum place
to insert a biometric tag in a human would be in inner upper arm, just below
the armpit of either arm. Very little direct impact (which could break the
glass capsule) occurs in that part of the body. That will be where they will
be implanted as that is where implants are placed today (glass birth control
implants for example). In laboratory animals, we used the neck.

> Why has Jerusalem become a nation again, like GOD
> foretold? Why has the red heiffer been born so they can rebuild the temple
> in Jerusalem after 2000 years without one? You answer me those questions,
> if you would.

"God" said there was a flood, that covered all the mountain tops.
Where did that water recede to? If both polar ice caps were to melt, the oceans
would rise 28cm, hardly enough to get your feet wet! :o) Again I point out,
there are many provable falsehoods in the bible.

> I have already prayed for you. I have prayed that GOD takes peace from
> your mind and from your sleep.

Shame on you! Wishing ill will upon others is wrong! I don't wish bad
things upon YOU! Why do you christians always ask your god to SMITE YOUR
ENEMIES, when we atheists (and antichrists) wish only that we all just get
along! I don't wish ill upon you, but I do have pity for you and your black
heart. I hope someday atheism smiles upon you and brings you true love, which
comes from true knowledge and understanding of our Universe.

BTW, what does your deity jesus say about wishing ill upon others?
Given that, I'll save you a place in hell, right next to me. ;o)

> I pray that Jesus shows you the truth
> before it's too late.

The only thing that "shows the light" is people such as yourself who
work as unpaid recruitment officers for the industry known as religion.

> You may not believe in heaven or hell, but I
> guarantee you they both exist.

Prove it. As a Scientist, I am _forced_ to prove everything, yet
nobody is forced in religion to prove any of it is true (because it can only be
proven false, so they don't try). If heaven (what we know today to be outer
space) exists, then prove it to me.

> You need to decide to choose life and not
> death, in the name of Jesus.

What about the Sumarian god Christa that jesus was based upon when he
was created (as a fictional character in the new testament by Calpernius Piso)?
If Christa came first, wouldn't he be the more optimum god to worship?

> Do you know what is rediculous to me? The fact that scientists, explain
> our creations as the big bang. I don't see creatures forming out of the
> gases at a gas company.

You find logic in that statement, because I don't. What does the big
bang (a supernova beyond anything we've ever witnessed in the galaxy) have to
do with natural gas (a product of bacterial decay of dead plant life)?

> They say we evolved from monkeys (someone get me
> a banana) and yet, there are STILL monkeys.

We didn't evolve FROM monkeys, or more accurately, from APES. WE ARE
APES! Man is just another fork off the several species of apes that exist.
The DNA in the Orangutan is so close to our own, that they are our closest
cousins in the ape world. WE forked away from what ever the Orangutan and Man
both came from (some other form of primate), and so did the gorilla, and the
chimpanzee. We are all very much similar, right down to our DNA.

> You base your beliefs on
> man's flawed knowledge. 500 years ago, they thought our planet was flat
> and that the sun revolved around us.

Yup, and so do you, the flat earth has hell below it. Your bible says
so, go read it! Galileo was jailed because he contradicted the bible by saying
the earth revolved around the sun, not the other way around! I bet you feel
pretty stupid right now (or will you do like most christians and reject the
parts of the bible that disagree with your ability to believe)?

> And you'd stake your salvation on
> that?! They have a law and trust me I know about science, that no
> scientific fact is without the possibility of being proven incorrect.

That is true, all scientific principles are subject to scrutiny.
However, I subject your RELIGION to scrutiny, and you get upset, why?

> God has been 100 dead accurate. No flaw, no mistake. no rewrites.

Or in my opinion 100% dead wrong, because I interpret it differently.

> The
> bible knew the facts of earth long before science did.

Heaven is not where it is supposed to be, outer space is. Of course
the sand dwellers that invented the Sumarian religion upon which christianity
is based had no way of knowing that. Islam explains the stars as "lanterns".

> You can research
> every question I asked you earlier. I guarantee you, you will find them
> all to be truth.

I did not become an atheist without careful consideration. I examined
the bible, and deemed it to be false, it's as simple as that.

> You can research every scientific THEORY and find that
> man commonly thought something else before they thought that!

But Science changes with the times, the bible does not! The Catholics
teach NOT to use a condom, which causes the spread of AIDS. Speaking of which,
doesn't disease prove there is no god? What kind of god would create disease
to plague his pets (us)?

> Science
> says this causes cancer and it doesn't, then they retract it.

SCIENCE doesn't retract it, the FDA does! One is founded upon truth,
the other is funded by campaign contributions. If you give the government
enough money, the FDA will approve mercury as a dietary supplement!

> They say
> drink 8 glasses of water and then retract it.

Drink what you require, just like any other animal on the planet.
Drink water when you're thirsty, forcing water upon yourself CAN'T be good!
You don't see any OTHER animal on earth drinking water in excess. My
philosophy is to eat when I'm hungry, drink water when I'm thirsty, and so on.

> They make medicine that
> does nothing to heal. When I HAVE SEEN with my own two eyes people get
> cured of incurable cancers that claimed the lives of those who depended on
> science.

I am a professional research Scientist. We have a term for this, it's
called "spontaneous remission". From my research with rats, one out of 10
controls (who receive NO TREATMENT for the cancers they have) will
spontaneously "heal" from the cancer. One could say two things, that 1 in 10
will get lucky and the body will find a way to defeat the cancer, or god loves
only 1 out of 10 albino sprague dawley lab rats who are dying of cancer.

Until you can show me a 100% cure rate with prayer, I'll reject it.

> Science admits that it's flawed in it's very nature.

And religion does not, it claims to be flawless, and unquestionable!

> They can't even cure
> a common cold that I can pray away with high results.

Prayer = psychotherapy. Happy thoughts can cure disease as well as
religion. The body responds to the mind, thus depression causes illness, and
conversely, happiness causes health. Statistically, living without the love of
a woman can shorten a mans lifespan by TEN YEARS while smoking statistically
only shortens a mans life by 6 years. BEING ALONE IS THE MOST RISKY BEHAVIOR
THAT A MAN CAN HAVE! This should show the power of the mind, the need for love,
and how the body is governed by the mind. This also explains why you believe
in a god, and how this belief in a god works for you.

Loss of Life Expectancy Due to Various Causes
http://www-ehs.hudson.ohiou.edu/EHS_Home_Page/radiation/radiation_orientation/02_risk_factors.htm

> Geez, Einstein
> believed in God!

Einstein was an atheist. "It was, of course, a lie what you read about
my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do
not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed
it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the
unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can
reveal it." -- Albert Einstein

You may search the web for proof that I am not making this up! I
suppose now you are going to stop admiring Einstein, who wasn't even born in a
christian family anyway, his family was jewish! Jews are inherently antichrist!

http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/arguments.html#einstein

> I have no reason to lie to you.

You moreover lie to yourself.

> I don't have a church,
> I'm not out for your money. If I had no care for your soul, I would say
> nothing and let you damn yourself. But, as it stands, the prayer is at
> his feet and WILL be answered.

Science is my god, but not my master, I am master over Science!

> You'll feel a tugging and nagging at your
> spirit, you won't be able to shake off that calling in your spirit to come
> to him.

That tugging is your need to mate, you confuse the want of religion for
the need of a good woman. Man is most happy when he is in love.

> You are now in trouble and the Lord will show you and save you.
> get ready.

Good christians die daily, some of horrible catastrophes, or illness.
Babies are born blind, or without spines every day. God loves us so much he
would allow innocent babies to be born dead, crippled, blind or retarded.
Science explains all of this, we may not LIKE the answer, but we can ACCEPT the
truth, while religion only makes us wonder why our god would be so cruel.

> Pleasant dreams...lol!
>
> Brandon

Remember, what goes around, comes around. As you wish evil upon
others, evil will come back to you. Pleasant dreams to YOU. Oh, and I hope
you feel shame for wishing ill upon others, because I would feel shame, but
then maybe you are devoid of morality, some humans are, we call them criminals,
and most of them end up in prisons after committing violent acts upon others.
Less than a hundredth of a percent of the inmates in US correctional facilities
claim to be atheist, the majority claim to be christian.

James

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[rehmwa 2]

That sounds painfully hard to maintain. It's easier to just say thanks but no thanks and walk away.

I'm most likely agnostic (or really Apathetic - I don't care either way and figure we should just be nice to each other for our own reasons, I think religion has it's place for some who need it). For perspective.

This thing sounds less like what someone believes in but more like they have an ax to grind. "Anti-religion" rather than just atheist - if you get my meaning. It's just as bad and sounds like active recruiting also.

The author really needs to lighten up and get a date.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[mr2mk1g 10]

Don't worry - they're both going to muslim hell cos they don't face Mecca when they prey.

Damnit, I mean Jewish hell cos they've eaten pork...

No wait, they're gonna be dung beatles in their next life...

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

This thing sounds less like what someone believes in but more like they have an ax to grind. "Anti-religion" rather than just atheist - if you get my meaning. It's just as bad and sounds like active recruiting also.

The author really needs to lighten up and get a date.

I completely agree with a lot of things you said. Frankly, I think they BOTH need to lighten up. The first guy never should have taken the time to write that email in the first place, and the second, if he in fact needed to reply with such a long story, should have been much less condescending and harsh. That was one of the first things I said to him actually.

Quote

Apathetic - I don't care either way and figure we should just be nice to each other for our own reasons

EXACTLY. Myself, I'm not sure what I am exactly, whether Agnostic or Apathetic, but I definitely share your views on what you just said. It's what I feel everyone needs to do. Who cares about differences between religions, sexes, races, sexual orientations, or whatever other factors that separate us? I guess it just makes me very upset when I hear about Christians picketing at gay pride parades and running around telling everyone theyre going to hell. This is NOT because I'm against christianity, there are a few strong Christians on here (like revjim and steve and pajarito) that I have HUGE respect for because they proclaim what they believe but dont push it on others. But still, the subject really offends me at the hatred that religious differences can cause. I realize the fact that I do it myself when I generalize religions by the actions of few, which is wrong, and a fault of mine entirely. Still, I don't go shouting to the hills that I hate these people or these people should be in hell, because I would never think that about another human being (unless theyre a rapist, child molester, etc....).

The point is, why do we fight so much over differences in religion??? Why is it that nearly every war and conflict in human history has been because of it??? Why can't we just all do exactly what rehmwa said, just be kind to each other and respect each others' beliefs regardless of what they may be???

I suppose it's what makes us human. It's the desire to be right, to have more knowledge than those around you, and to claim to have a better understanding of the world around us. It's sad, but true, and it it in my opinion humanity's biggest flaw.

But I'll tell you one thing that I know for certain. When it all ends, all is said and done, and our lives end......we're ALL wrong.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.

[batbex 0]

I think both those guys were being way extreme, unreasonable and closeminded etc...

As for Christians picketing gay pride parades that really is a subjective interpretation of a passage in the bible and by no means the only possible interpretation, even by a Christian.

Coming from a really strict catholic upbringing and living in Ireland, I don't in any way condone fighting or extreme action in the name of religion, but I do understand the motives behind it.
I also understand and sympathise with friends who might try to 'push' their religion on me - they are in fact engaging in a self-less act, they thoroughly believe that if I continue on in my beliefs(despite the upbringing, have always been an atheist, just took me longer to come out of the closest about it! ) that I will be damned and rot in hell for all eternity! if you honestly believed that was the fate of someone you cared about - you'd try and save them from it too!

Often people don't just fight about religion, it acts as a contributing factor and becomes a scapegoat for gratuitous violence.

[BikerBabe 0]

Quote

how is it that his prophecies are all correct?

Based on the context of the subsequent "information", I would think that the "christian" here is talking about the book of Revelation.

There are quite literally hundreds of interpretations of the book which is basically John's description of a vision he had. All of which are probably wrong. I'm a Christian, and I tend to dismiss any "interpretation" of this vision that takes it literally. John himself says it was a dream, and even then people interpreted dreams as symbolic.

The guy who quotes Revelation then says "this represents China's army" or any other such nonsense probably hasn't truly studied all of the interpretations out there, because that one is decidedly far from the mainstream.

So, basically, this "christian" lost all credibility with me within the first few paragraphs. The "atheist" did, too, but both of them are making hollow, circular arguments (from a purely logical point of view). "The prophecy represents this because obviously, it's there" vs. "Prophecies are always misinterpreted" Neither argument holds water.

Same thing further down with the science "arguments". Any good logistician would find a thousand holes in both sides.

Never meddle in the affairs of dragons, for you are crunchy and taste good with ketchup!

[RoadRash 0]

Quote

That sounds painfully hard to maintain. It's easier to just say thanks but no thanks and walk away.

I'm most likely agnostic (or really Apathetic - I don't care either way and figure we should just be nice to each other for our own reasons, I think religion has it's place for some who need it). For perspective.

This thing sounds less like what someone believes in but more like they have an ax to grind. "Anti-religion" rather than just atheist - if you get my meaning. It's just as bad and sounds like active recruiting also.

The author really needs to lighten up and get a date.

You took the words right out of my mouth!! I, myself, would say that I am Agnostic, however, I am probably more Apathetic as well. And you are right, there is a line between a true Atheist who doesn't give a damn about religion and individuals who actively "preach" against religion...


~R+R......

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~
Fly the friendly skies...^_^...})ii({...^_~...

[StevePhelps 0]

Hard to respond to the agnostic/atheist, but if the "Christian" thinks he's fulfilling the Great Commission by arguing the gospel (which means "good news"), he is sadly mistaken. Also his wish for unrest in this man's life is contrary to Christ's teaching on the sermon on the mount. Christ tells us to "But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you "

No wonder my mission as a Christian is made harder by "christians".

[justdumi 0]

Well the way i sees it..Atheist vrs Christianity (All religions included) is a draw. They could be the same thing written differently.

The religion writers and whatnots were limited in general knowledge which we have a strong edge over. I reckon that religion can be scientifically explained. For instance what we term as a UFO now would have been termed as what had Adam and Eve seen one?

God made the world in 7 days? Now if you believe that at face value you are legendary (i think they call it "faith"). What if the soul who wrote that part of the bible...in his simple understanding...meant a day as a period of time other than 24 hours...ie a million years?

Ok so we get aliens and stuff these days? You could say most of these biblical miracle workers were just aliens from outer space hence nothing they did made sense to the dudes on earth..who unlike us...knew even less about the world.

Elijah taken away by a chariot of fire...how about him being taken in some sort of space craft? (chariot was the only transport means known to man then..hence thats the only way it could be explained).

You could say also say that Jesus was another alien and his birthday star was the mothership..who knows.

God then...if any accountant reads this..could be what i would call a "suspense" account. Thats where we could attribute all that we dont know....

That we are all being controlled by aliens!

Im scared!

[DrunkMonkey 0]

Atheists/Agnostics for the most part will relax once Zealous religious folk lay off the aggressive "soulwinning," which boils down to browbeating, and once Religious folk stop trying to turn the US into the home of the Christian Taliban.

Just my $0.02

[Nightingale 0]

I think you're very correct.

I'd asked a couple of questions of someone who I knew was a Christian, but didn't come off as overbearing, at least at first.

After the first few messages, I was innundated with unasked for messages filled with bible quotes, preaching things that didn't make a whole lot of sense (something about the longitudinal location of London meaning that the King James version of the bible was the only valid translation??) that I didn't have the background or context to understand, and chastized for using a curse word that I didn't even completely type out in a post on a message board. The post wasn't even directed at this person. Frankly, it creeped me out.

So, what could've been an open dialogue about Christianity turned into me being totally weirded out and not wanting to talk to this person, and the person in question probably not really understanding why.

[justdumi 0]

Hey you just gotta love that..lol

Just tell me more about that King James theory...i might just like to try it out in the bar and see if anyone accepts it...or if i get Brainy Smurfed!

I love dorps!!!!! (beer)

[rehmwa 2]

Quote

I think you're very correct.

I'd asked a couple of . . .totally weirded out and not wanting to talk to this person, and the person in question probably not really understanding why.

Even worse for me. At work, oone guy found out I was a church-goer. At first, I got a pamphlet on the desk. Then, one guy who was on a mail list for some harmless finance and political stuff starting e-mailing a ton of religious stuff weekly to the disty. I eventually went to his boss (who used to work for me) and let him know to get it to stop because when I went to him directly, he wouldn't. The poor guy could have gotten in real trouble if it ever went to higher levels, luckily his boss has a good head on his shoulders and took care of it quietly.

...
Driving is a one dimensional activity - a monkey can do it - being proud of your driving abilities is like being proud of being able to put on pants

[TypicalFish 0]

Quote

Don't worry - they're both going to muslim hell cos they don't face Mecca when they prey.

Actually, this isn't exactly true; one of the more interesting things about Islam is that as long as you have led a good and fruitful life, Allah lets you into heaven whether you are a practicing Muslim or not...

Yup, you can even be an aetheist.

"I gargle no man's balls..." ussfpa on SOCNET

[Guest]

Dude,

Putteth down the lighter, and steppeth away from the Crack Pipe...

In a word - BS

Edgar Cayce predicted 9/11.

mh

.

"The mouse does not know life until it is in the mouth of the cat."

[brits17 0]

Quote

I
> guarantee you they both exist.

Prove it. As a Scientist, I am _forced_ to prove everything, yet nobody is forced in religion to prove any of it is true (because it can only be proven false, so they don't try). If heaven (what we know today to be outer space) exists, then prove it to me.

Hehe, well both these guys need to take a chill pill, but this quote stuck out a lil. Dalton has an atomic theory, not a law. Theories are not proved, just not disproved over multiple (hundreds of thousands) experimentations. I would like to see someone say that atoms do not exist because they are not 'proven.'

Both these dudes are extremists though. I wouldn't want to touch that conversation with a 10 foot pole... it may be of interest to pick it apart one day, but I don't have the time to argue with such closed minded individuals. Hehe and I'm a Christian but this post certainly didn't get me hostile... actually that Brandon kid made me laugh

_______________________
aerialkinetics.com

[WrongWay 0]

Quote

Edgar Cayce predicted 9/11.

Who's that? I'm not up to date on the who's who of, well, anything but skydiving.

Wrong Way
D #27371 Mal Manera Rodriguez Cajun Chicken Ø Hellfish #451
The wiser wolf prevails.